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Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?  
User currently offlineACAfan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 710 posts, RR: 6
Posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6215 times:

I thaught KIX was a white elephant. Why are they expanding it?


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35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineD950 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6195 times:

Having been through it, I would call it a beautifully efficient white elephant.


Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6139 times:

What is a white elephant?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineDeltaFFinDFW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6128 times:

Isn't it the only airport in the world that is expanding and sinking at the same time..  Wink

User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1710 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6114 times:
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It is sinking. Apparently, the seabed that the island was built over is extremely soft--which is why I thought it was odd they are expanding. Looks cool though!


Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineAri From UK - England, joined May 2005, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6110 times:

It's a prety big expansion. It's basiclly doubles it in size dusn't it?!What are they going to use all that space for??Is it all for new gate spaces?!

ari

[Edited 2005-08-09 23:07:19]

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6105 times:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Okay, thanx a bunch, N328KF!

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4858 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6067 times:
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Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 4):
It is sinking. Apparently, the seabed that the island was built over is extremely soft--which is why I thought it was odd they are expanding. Looks cool though!

I saw a special about this airport on "MegaStructures" last week and this topic was mentioned. I would probably have a clearer answer if it wasn't for the fact that it was like 3AM and I was half asleep, but I want to say it's not so much an expansion as it is a replacement. Due to the fact it is sinking, I believe there is a somewhat short life expectancy for the old runway/terminal.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineBrokenrecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6013 times:

My understanding is that it is a new runway.

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5802 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Are they also going to build an extension to the terminal. The land area for the second runway looks large enough to accomdodate a terminal expansion project.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBrokenrecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5979 times:

I would think that is a possibility.

User currently offlineNZAA From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5902 times:

On "megastructures" it was mentioned that the new runway was vital. With only 1 runway there what would happen if an accident were to occur, apart from diverting the flights it is possible for them to keep the airport operational.

Also they beleive that the land will not sink any more.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 6):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant

hahahahahaha,



Planes Piloted Tecnam P2002 JF, Cessna 172R, Cessna 152, Airbus A320
User currently offlineBH346 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5892 times:

The second island will have a parallel second runway built on it. I believe it will be longer than the first, 4000m IIRC.

This website has info on the 2nd and proposed 3rd phase projects: http://www.kald.co.jp/eindexframe.html

The terminal extension doesn't seem very clear anymore. I don't think there really is a need for it since the current facilities aren't near capicity. The Renzo Piano designed terminal is beautiful and functional.

Sinking rate seems to have reduced dramatically over the last few years and seems to be stabilizing. Once the second island is finished, KIX is supposed to start on a project to reinforce the first island by building walls to keep water out of the runway and from flooding the terminal.



Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

Yes, the situation is not nearly as dire as it sounds.

1. You can always add more earth on top of the original island, as it is manmade. That would mean the only real problem is you can't lift the foundations of the original terminals. The building can be lifted, but the foundation will continue to sink.

2. With the second runway, built on a higher island, it allows for the eventually closing and regrading of the first island, increasing that islands height above sea level as well. This is far off, but if it were to ever need to happen, a second runway allows that (again, assuming they do it quickly).

3. If over time, the building keeps sinking, there are many, many years to build a new terminal structure next to it, connecting the first and second islands. They left plenty of room. That would be 20 years off, and by that time, building a whole new terminal wouldn't be the end of the world anyway. Then, when the original is vacated, it could be taken down, the earth raised up (the only spot at that point that would be too low) and a new terminal built.

My college advisor was part of the engineering team preventing the leaning tower of pisa from toppling. They now have it at a point where it is slightly righting itself over time. Miracles can be done when you have lots of time to perform them.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1805 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5771 times:

I think the new terminal building was debated. But for now, they were unable to get the construction fees to build it (maybe in the future). Thus, they are only going to have one rwy an a taxiway connecting it to the terminal. It's going to be about a 1km taxi from the threshold of the new rwy to the terminal. Well, I guess some areas of NRT are worse.


Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5721 times:

I have been amazed by the poor management of KIX. It has been open for 10 years and still has yet to make a profit. It commercial space is limited and IMO not the best.

Solution...build another runway and terminal? It has high landing fees and poor domestic connections. At sometimes during the day half of its gates will be completely empty. What would be the use of a 2nd terminal...it would be empty.

Not getting the terminal I think was okay. I think they should make black before spending more money.

When it comes to offshore airports...give me HKG or NGO anyday. Both of them are 10 times better than KIX in design, facility, and things to do while waiting. HKG & NGO are like entertainment districts with plans arriving. KIX is just a big building for Japanese group tours to leave from.

NGO is already ahead of schedule for being profitable in 5 years. If they are at the point of needing more space they will go to their phase two (2nd runway and terminal expansion).



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5705 times:

Kansai Airport is no white elephant. Sure it cost a ton to build and maintain, but itfs definitely needed. Itami Airport sure canft handle all the traffic. The terminal isnft near to full capacity except between 0830 to 1100. Does it need a second runway: No. With Kobe Airport opening up next year and Osaka Itami still around, the second runway is definitely not needed.
The area to the far right of the picture is where the 4,000m runway will be located and slated to open in 2007. The terminal facility will be built between the existing island and the new runway, but that schedule is not yet determined. It will probably be next decade before construction starts on that portion. Besides, itfs probably a good idea that the reclaimed land sink first before the building structure is put up.

Next, I believe KIX is finally posting operational profits. However, they still have that mountain of debt to deal with.

While most places in the world have a difficult time (some places thatfs an understatement) building any airport facility, the Osaka/Kansai region by 2007 will have too much runway capacity. Isnft it better to have more capacity than what we always do here on A.net arguing over slots/building runways? Then, we can argue over which new airline/routes can serve the Kansai-region.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5669 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 17):

I don't agree on the runway. EVERY major international airport needs a second runway to be considered a viable commitment because, as stated, an accident could shut the airport down for a long time with only one runway.

But as you clearly show, KIX has plenty of time for the rest. No need to rush anything. Grow slowly and wisely, but they should focus on more retail. Maybe they are afraid the more they cram into the terminal, the faster it will sink.  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineRamerinianAir From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5528 times:

They are spending billions on preparing for the A380. LOLOLOL
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8285 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

Kudos to comments about how much NGO simply ROCKS...I'm so fortunate to be living so close to it...haha.

Now, the answer to the thread question - you'd better ask all politicians in this country who are in business with construction bigwig crooks!



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineBoeingfan71 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 96 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5419 times:

i saw megastructures too and it says that the first floors have walls that can move up and down due to have to being raised constantly and frequently.

User currently offlineNeverest From France, joined Dec 2004, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5354 times:

Has any thought been given to the rising of the sea level from global warming?

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5284 times:

When talking about KIX we must not forget that this airport caters mainly for international traffic, while downtown ITM mainly caters for domestic traffic (even though both airports are designated as "Class 1" by Japan´s Ministry of Land, Infrastructre and Transport).
That means that ITM "takes away" a good portion of pax (= revenue) from KIX. And unless either KIX can generate much more additional traffic or some traffic is transferred from ITM to KIX, the situation with the poor revenue at KIX will continue.

The situation in Nagoya is completely different as the new Centrair effectively has replaced Komaki !

EDIT: see http://www.mlit.go.jp/english/civil_aviation/kuko03.html for info about Japans Airports.

-HT

[Edited 2005-08-10 08:09:14]


Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5103 times:

KIX is expanding for the same reason that miles and miles of unneeded roads and tunnels are built all over Japan every year. The airport is underutilized as it exists and the 2nd runway will only saddle KIX with more costs without any real prospect for generating enough revenue to pay it off.

However you cut it, KIX is an economic disaster. It expensive and inconvenient for passengers and airlines. While Osaka may have needed another airport, a better, less costly solution could have been found.


25 ClassicLover : How is it inconvenient for passengers?! I got the train directly from Osaka downtown, and was there in 45 minutes. Once at the airport, I found it to
26 HT : The "inconvenient" may refer to a comparison to travel to ITM from downtown ... ? -HT
27 Ikramerica : No, because it's so far been a non-issue, rising far, far less than the dire predictions used to extort trillions.
28 N79969 : I have been through KIX. That it looks nice and the train is fast really has no bearing on the economics of the project. Part of the problem is the re
29 Okie : Possibly KIX is sinking faster than anticipated due to debt load? I agree that to be considered a major player in international traffic a second runwa
30 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : The airport is not sinking. It has settled faster than expected but it also has tapered off faster than expected. The second runway is simple double y
31 Kaitak : I don't care how expensive it is or how far it's sinking (unless I'll need to bring flippers and a swimming cap to check in), the Japanese know how to
32 IRelayer : I can't believe some of you people. You can sit there saying that this beautiful, amazing structure is unneccesary, or that it shouldn't be expanded?
33 Malaysia : They are going to add rail tracks under the terminal, so when the original runway sinks, the terminal slides to the new runway and land. right?
34 BuckFifty : There is the possibility that Itami may close within the next 20 years, when Kansai development is at a mature stage, with Kobe adding capacity to the
35 AirWillie6475 : Because the other side is sinking.
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