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A319 Performance Chart  
User currently offlineSNBru From Belgium, joined Feb 2005, 168 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6706 times:

If just saw the performance graphs on the Airbus website.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a320/a319/performance.html

The graph of the A319 looked interesting. A few questions:

* What about the indicated max passenger+luggage weight level. Is this a realistic number or a manufacture number chosen to extent the actual range.
In other words. Is this max passenger + luggage weight an operational number.
If that is the case the A319 has an impressive range.

* Is it really possible to fly the A319 with full passenger load (124 pax + luggage without extra cargo) across the Atlantic?

*Why is the range of the A319 such lager than the range of other family members (A320-A321)? Greater fuel tanks or only the effect of lowered weight?

*The airbus chart indicates three different MTOW's. Are there different A319 versions available? Which version has SN Brussels, which operates the A319 to TLV (2000 mi)

thanks

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12569 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6650 times:
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A number of airlines have A319s operating very long flights (including trans-Atlantic).


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineIlgrancapo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6585 times:

See LH wetleased aircrafts from Privatair flying from DUS to EWR, or GJ new 319CJ that pretends start operatins between MXP and NYC.

User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6566 times:

Quoting Ilgrancapo (Reply 2):
See LH wetleased aircrafts from Privatair flying from DUS to EWR, or GJ new 319CJ that pretends start operatins between MXP and NYC.

These planes are not wetleased. PrivatAir directly operates the flight on behalf of Lufthansa ...


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9633 posts, RR: 68
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6532 times:
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and they certainly don't have 124 seats!

User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6501 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 4):
and they certainly don't have 124 seats!

PrivatAir does have a A319 with 124 seats, but it's not an LR-version and AFAIK it operates the Airbus corporate shuttle between France and the UK ...


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9633 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6494 times:
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I thought we were talking about Privatair A319's crossing the Atlantic? Have I misread the thread?

User currently offlineSAS_A330-300 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6345 times:

PritvatAir has 4 A319's. Two of have 126 seats while the other two have configuration of 48.

Soure: JP Airline-Fleet Book


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6313 times:

yeah, sorry you're right ...

then lets do a little math

A319 Operating empty weight (ca.) 40.000 kg
additional fuel tanks of LR version (ca.) 1.000 kg
124 pax + luggage (100kg each) (ca.) 12.400 kg

zero fuel weight 53.400 kg


Then lets say a typical atlantic crossing (westbound) is 8h15m and you need reserves of 45m. So need fuel for 9h flight time. Further on lets say an A319 has an long-haul avg fuel burn of 2500kg per hour (which could be a very good guess). Then you need 22500kg of fuel.

zero fuel weight 53.400 kg
fuel 22.500 kg

final weight 75.900 kg


The A319 (and A319LR/CJ) MTOW is 75.500 kg. Thus you have already an excess weight of 400kg and my calculation is already rather tight, because we don't really know about the real structural weight, the real weather and how much space for luggage is left after you installed the auxillary fuel tanks.

Therefore I would answer above question with no, unless you don't fly DUB-BOS or something similar .... DUS-ORD or ZRH-EWR should not be possible with 124 passengers ...

[Edited 2005-08-10 22:58:55]

User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6298 times:

Quoting SNBru (Thread starter):
* What about the indicated max passenger+luggage weight level. Is this a realistic number or a manufacture number chosen to extent the actual range.
In other words. Is this max passenger + luggage weight an operational number.

When I was at uni I was taught to assume *on average* 70kg/pax +25kg for baggage that makes a passenger payload for a 124 seater 11.8tons which is just above what airbus has quoted. (Probably less baggage weight for shorthaul). That was the load used during the design phase.

But for operational weight calculations I understand it's 100kg/pax (minimum). I think some airlines revised this upwards a while ago. Forgotten who it was tho.

[Edited 2005-08-10 23:01:47]


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6209 times:

Airbus's range chart is rather crude!
I would have no confidence flying from ZRH-BOM/DEL given the basic outline of continents on the map!


User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6157 times:

Well it also lists a 15,000km max range for the A380. I doubt how they arrived at that figure, and I doubt that it is valid. I wouldn't trust a manufacturer's glossy promotional website...too much PR bias to be useful most of the time. Same with Boeing, although Boeing's site tends to be a little more meaty IMO. I think you could "theoretically" fly a A319 across the Atlantic in a typical passenger config...just like you could "theoretically" fly a 727 across the Atlantic. In reality though, the penalties for such an endeavor and the limitations would make it a no-go.

-IR


User currently offlineSNBru From Belgium, joined Feb 2005, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

What about these questions? Anybody an explanation?
*Why is the range of the A319 such lager than the range of other family members (A320-A321)? Greater fuel tanks or only the effect of lowered weight?

*The airbus chart indicates three different MTOW's. Are there different A319 versions available?


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5882 times:

The range of the "basic" A319-100 is greater than the A320/A321 because of the lower total weight of the a/c.

A320-200 empty with CFM-56 engines = 42175 kg
A319-100 empty with CFM-56 engines = 39884 kg

Beside the Basic A319-100 versions, A319ER, A319LR and A319CJ versions are available.

The A319ER is a basic A319-100 modified by the addition of two fuel tanks in the rear baggage hold which gives the A319ER a range of 6500km (3600nm).

Air France operates 3 a/c of type (F-GRXG/H/I) and one A319LR (F-GYAS) leased from "Aéroservices". They have a configuration of 28J/54Y and operate on the "Dedicate" network. The longest flight operated by AF's A319ER/LR is CDG-PNR (6032km/3748mi/3257nm).

The A319LR has 4 extra fuel tanks and the A319CJ has 6.
This brings the range up to 8300km.

The nonstop flight record was established last October 9th 2004 when
An A319CJ flew nonstop from TLS (Toulouse-France) to LAS (Las Vegas-USA)
which means a distance of 9101km (4914nm/5655mi).
The aircraft had 25 persons on board including the Crew and was carrying 2 tons of freight.


User currently offlineSNBru From Belgium, joined Feb 2005, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5715 times:

Thanks for all the answers.

If I understand well, almost all A319's in operation are the normal -100 series.
The extended range versions are exceptions, e.g. for Air France and PrivatAir?


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

Quoting SNBru (Reply 14):
Thanks for all the answers.

If I understand well, almost all A319's in operation are the normal -100 series.
The extended range versions are exceptions, e.g. for Air France and PrivatAir?

Exactly. As for my two cents I find it a bit exaggerated that Airbus introduced 3 different "versions" for essentially the same airplane. These auxillary fuel can be loaded into any A319. Even the extra long-haul navigation equippment is available on all versions at least as an option ... any A319 version can be converted to any other A319 version within one day or even quicker if the additional eqippment is on site ... there's not much of a difference that would justify to speak of "versions" ...


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

You understood well, SNBru !  Wink

Qatar airways operates also an A319LR (A7-CJA)


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rolf Wallner



User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17513 posts, RR: 45
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5610 times:

Which can carry more payload farther, the 737-700 or A319? It looks to me like they both can carry about 31,000lbs 3000nm. Does one outperform the other in that regard or is it a crime against a.net to ask such a question?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5564 times:

PADSpot,

Not "any" A319 version can be converted into any other.
An A319-100 can be converted into an A319ER.

The A319LR & A319CJ are originally built that way. I don't think you can convert an A319-100 into an A319LR or CJ.

MaverickM11,

A319CJ
Max. cruising speed = M 0.82
Max. Altitude = 41000ft
Range with 10 PAX = 11650km (6300nm)
Rate of Climb = 23 min to 37000ft.

B737-700 BBJ
Max. cruising speed = M 0.82
Max. Altitude = 41000ft
Range with 8 PAX = 11480km (6200nm)


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17513 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18):
MaverickM11,

A319CJ
Max. cruising speed = M 0.82
Max. Altitude = 41000ft
Range with 10 PAX = 11650km (6300nm)
Rate of Climb = 23 min to 37000ft.

B737-700 BBJ
Max. cruising speed = M 0.82
Max. Altitude = 41000ft
Range with 8 PAX = 11480km (6200nm)

Does that translate to the passenger variants? Can CM's 73Gs fly more payload further than AF's Dedicate 319s, or vice versa?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5502 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18):
Not "any" A319 version can be converted into any other.
An A319-100 can be converted into an A319ER.

The A319LR & A319CJ are originally built that way. I don't think you can convert an A319-100 into an A319LR or CJ.

Sorry FlySCC, but I have to contradict

These additional fuel tanks are modular, standardized eqippment. The actual configuration depends on the operator who can fly the A319 with anything between zero and six tanks. They can be handled similar to a cargo container and even look similar. But naturally they can't be changed quite as quick.

... and just because its that simple I don't understand why we need three different designations for essentially the same plane ... I assume it is all about what I learned as "Product Differentiation" some years back in Marketing class.

cheers,
Jan


User currently offlineSNBru From Belgium, joined Feb 2005, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

Ok, I may be stupid but once again I really don't understand the Airbus chart very well.
I can see on that chart that there are different version with greater range (extra fuel tanks). But it seems that there are, next to the three different ranges, also three different MTOW version. This is really weird and seems to be undependant to the extra fuel tanks installed.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5337 times:

Jan,

Thanks for the explanation.
Nice to learn something sometimes on this forum !

I found this : Unlike the Boeing Business Jet BBJ which combines the B737-700's airframe with the B737-800's strenghtened wing and undercarriage, the A319CJ is designed to be a minimum change development of the A319-100. This means that the A319CJ can be easily converted to an airliner, thus increasing the aircraft's potential resale value.

As you said, the differentiation is more a marketing thing.
OK. The plane is the same but each version aims at a different market...

MaverickM11

A319
Operating empty = 39.884kg (87.930lb)
Standart Maximum Take off weight = 64.000kg (141094lb)
or optionally = 75.500kg (166.450lb)
Range at 64.000kg Take off weight = 3391km (1831nm)
Range at 75.500kg Take off weight = 6845km (3697nm)

B737-700
Operating empty = 38.147kg (84.100lb)
Standard MTOW* = 60.330kg (133.000lb)
HGW MTOW = 70.080kg (154500lb)
Range at 70.080kg Take Off weight = 6037km (3260nm) for the HGW version.


*MTOW = Maximum Take Off Weight


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

Quoting SNBru (Reply 21):
But it seems that there are, next to the three different ranges, also three different MTOW version

There are two MTOW options as FlySSC already wrote:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 22):
Standart Maximum Take off weight = 64.000kg (141094lb)
or optionally = 75.500kg (166.450lb)

I assume that the ER, LR, CJ "version" all have the higher MTOW thus 75.500kg


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5266 times:

According to Airbus web site (and others) 75.500kg seems to be the MTOW for the CJ & LR versions, the Maximum Ramp weight being 75.900 KG

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/productcompare/


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