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More NW News, Some Answers  
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

Steenland is at it again, he's just like "chainsaw Al" from IBM. Just talked to my father that was in a meeting at MSP.

Regarding the Champion flying. Its actually not out sourced.

NW pilots are still receiving pay for the flights that they were going to fly. However, NW is spending much more on this, as obviously you know, NW has to pay Champion to take pax, management knew mechanics would do this stuff, therefore got Champion involved. On top of that, passengers who bought FC tickets received $200 voucher, and coach passengers received $100 voucher.

New information regarding the DC-9's.

Likely they will now be gone within 4 years, NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline, just like US Airways did with their little branch off.

Aircraft, on average 15 aircraft are out of service each day, however, yesterday alone had 48 aircraft.

Management wants more pilot pay cuts lay-offs

In a new contract proposed to pilots today, pilots would take another 40% in pay cuts on top of what they just took. Also 1500 more pilots would be furloughed.

Looks like Chainsaw Steenland is destroying the airline, too bad their wasn't away to get him fired. Ever since he became CEO he's done nothing but take it in the wrong direction. He's going to end up out of a job if this keeps up one way or another.

[Edited 2005-08-11 00:45:18]


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11637 posts, RR: 61
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5658 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Likely they will now be gone within 4 years, NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline, just like US Airways did with their little branch off.

Personally, I think this is the biggest news from this post, if true.

NW actively seeking to segment an enormous part of its domestic network off into a separate airline or operating unit flying a small subfleet of EMB190s would be an enormous, radical shift for the airline. I completely agree that EMB190s would probably be an ideal DC9 replacement long-term, but I'm not quite sure that separating that operation off into a different airline with a separate operating certificate is really the answer.


User currently offlineFlyerBoyEK From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5656 times:

This is really sad news to hear. I know that CO is owned by NW through a special agreement that took place in the Bethune days. If NW gets into bigger trouble than they are in now, what would happen to CO?

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5620 times:

Quoting FlyerBoyEK (Reply 2):
This is really sad news to hear. I know that CO is owned by NW through a special agreement that took place in the Bethune days. If NW gets into bigger trouble than they are in now, what would happen to CO?

NW was forced by the US government a few years ago to sell off their CO shares.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineFlyXJT From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 129 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5612 times:

Quoting FlyerBoyEK (Reply 2):
I know that CO is owned by NW

This hasn't been the case for years


User currently offlineFlyerBoyEK From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5597 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 3):
NW was forced by the US government a few years ago to sell off their CO shares.

Ah...sorry about that. I read that in From Worst to First by Bethune himself, but of course that was written in 1997. I hadn't heard much since then.

EK


User currently offlineTrappedInMKG From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5548 times:

All your flip and uninformed editorializing aside, it seems to me that Doug has made a couple of big decisions Dick Anderson didn't want to make. This is at least moving NW in a direction (whether it's right or wrong is debatable, but we'll see within a few years), which is better than the stagnation that occurred for a while under Anderson.

1. They're bringing CRJs into Mesaba, which gives an answer (at least a partial one) to the future of Mesaba. With Avros and Saabs not available anymore, they've got to do something eventually. The CRJ is the answer.

2. HALLELUJIAH! They're FINALLY answering the DC-9 question (side note to Johan: you can close down A.net now. If we're not discussing NW -9s, what WILL we discuss?). If he wants to set up a 3rd wholly-owned regional, go for it. At least they're making a decision. DC-9s are great little planes, and the decision to keep them for so long is arguably the reason why they've lasted this long without major financial trouble, but they can't fly them forever. However, the decision on the E-190 is a puzzlement. The Jungle Jets are great machines, but CR9s or the C-Series would make more sense from a fleet standpoint.

3. They've ordered 787s, which indicates a willingness to expand Pacific ops, which is NW's bread and butter.

4. They keep bringing 330s online, which indicates possible expansion in both Europe and Asia, which can only help them.



Assuming NW weathers the strike, they seem to have some semblance of a plan for the next 3-5 years or so.


User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
NW actively seeking to segment an enormous part of its domestic network off into a separate airline or operating unit flying a small subfleet of EMB190s would be an enormous, radical shift for the airline. I completely agree that EMB190s would probably be an ideal DC9 replacement long-term, but I'm not quite sure that separating that operation off into a different airline with a separate operating certificate is really the answer.

Why wouldn't it be?


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5491 times:

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
All your flip and uninformed editorializing aside

Your right, what would my father know, hes only a DC-9 Capt for NW!

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
but CR9s or the C-Series would make more sense from a fleet standpoint

Hows that, when it would just be like US idea, it wouldnt be flown by Mesaba or Pinnacle, but would be ex NW mainline pilots, just like the ones at US.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineAviatorTJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5489 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
NW pilots are still receiving pay for the flights that they were going to fly. However, NW is spending much more on this, as obviously you know, NW has to pay Champion to take pax, management knew mechanics would do this stuff, therefore got Champion involved. On top of that, passengers who bought FC tickets received $200 voucher, and coach passengers received $100 voucher.

Rumor has it that MG picked up on some of the cancellations today.

In other news, I saw the mechanic's union VW beetle rolling through Bloomington. My thoughts are with the employees during these tough times.

-tj


User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5467 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Your right, what would my father know, hes only a DC-9 Capt for NW!

Then let him come here, post, and we'll give him his due regard. Otherwise all your info is third hand and therefore a bit suspect.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5395 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Likely they will now be gone within 4 years, NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline, just like US Airways did with their little branch off.

Is it going to be named North?  Wink

It's sad to see what's going on at NW...and I thought UA was f***ed up.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5370 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 11):
Is it going to be named North?

North Central Airlines. That has a nice ring to it!  Big grin


User currently offlineJAFA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 782 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

Actually Burnsie is pretty much posting facts. I am not saying that these things will acutally happen, but they have been proposed.

Now the time frame part I believe IS speculation.


User currently offlineTrappedInMKG From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5169 times:

Burnsie-

First of all, my apologies as my quote button still doesn't work (you know, God forbid that a site with 15,000 users would support the 2nd largest browser out there)...

Anyway, I don't understand your objection to what I said about the CR9 or the C-Series. I'm merely saying that Bombardier products would make more sense for a new fleet type, as 9E and XJ are already Bombardier customers. Adding a new manufacturer with a new fleet type complicates things even further.

Lastly, I'm not taking issue with the information part of your post. I hope most of it is accurate. I hope they get E190s and I hope that they get their labor issues straightened out. My objection was to the term Chainsaw Steenland. When big changes like this happen, invariably some people aren't going to be happy (like the thousands of pilots who are going to be taking a big pay cut), but at least Steenland is doing SOMETHING. He's making some big decisions, and at least attempting to do something with the company.


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5072 times:

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 10):
Then let him come here, post, and we'll give him his due regard. Otherwise all your info is third hand and therefore a bit suspect.

Burnsie-

Besides crew room speculation from your Dad, do you have anything to back up your info on the DC9 retirements and seperate operating unit for the E190's? While it's become painfully obvious in the last year that the 9's need to be replaced, you really don't have anything to give your claim any credibility.


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline,

Didn't Indy Air try basically the same thing? Look where they're at. At least UA is using A320s and Song is using 752's, that's what's keeping those two "airlines" going.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5027 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 15):
Burnsie-

Besides crew room speculation from your Dad, do you have anything to back up your info on the DC9 retirements and seperate operating unit for the E190's? While it's become painfully obvious in the last year that the 9's need to be replaced, you really don't have anything to give your claim any credibility.

My dad was just told it today at a meeting for the pilots in MSP. He is going to send me the proposed new contract. Obiviously I wont be posting exactly all that is contained, but if I have the time to run through it, ill find a line that state it. It was kind of a shock that all of a sudden they would be gone, likely within 4 years. Likely replaced by EMB-190's. So this actually wasnt speculation, whoever held the meeting told the pilots this, ill look in the contract hes going to send me as soon as I get it. I understand though, with a.net being a.net why a lot of people are skeptical. Ill get back to ya'll ASAP.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineHammer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 689 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4913 times:

Beat ya Burnsie: here is the info....

DATE: August 04, 2005
RE: NWA PILOT CONTRACT PROPOSAL.

LABOR COST TARGET.

* NWA believes $1.1B total annual labor "give is necessary for a
successful business plan.
* ALPA contribution is $322M per year (in addition to the $250M/year
per
the Bridge Agreement.)
* Management's position is that ALPA gets no credit for $15M revenue
enhancement in the Bridge Agreement.
* Management's position is that ALPA gets no credit for pension
savings
from a freeze.
* Management views that as our non-Chapter 11 premium.
Management believes credits for revenue enhancements or scope changes
are inappropriate.

CONTRACT CHANGES.

* On 6/21/05 NWA presented ALPA with a list of possible contract
changes.
* NWA believes these changes produce $322M.
* Based on "UAL-bankruptcy like" contract for competitive purposes.
* Management indicated that how we produce the target amount is
immaterial to them.
Management's proposal would reduce required pilot staffing by 1181 (in
addition to the 500+ pilots on furlough).

MANAGEMENTS PROPOSED CHANGES.

* 5 year duration.
* Amendable 12/31/2010.
* Average pay cut of 22.3%
* Eliminate Captain Augmentation.
* Remove seniority list instructors.
* Eliminate premium pay.
* Reduce vacation (30 days max)
* Cap sick leave at 850 hours
* Deadhead for 50% pay and credit.
* Raise monthly caps to 89 hours international and 95 hours domestic.
* Trip rig to 1:4 Wide-body, 0 for Narrow-body.
* Average 4:15 duty day.
Other miscellaneous cuts.

WET LEASING.

* In any year NWA may schedule for wet lease 10% of international
passenger block hours on aircraft types not in the NWA fleet.
* In any year NWA may schedule for wet lease 10% of freighter block
hours
on aircraft types not in NWA fleet.
* In any year, NWA may schedule for wet lease 5% of the total block
hours
of the company to handle peak flying opportunities.
If new aircraft are on order, NWA may schedule for wet lease an
equivalent number of aircraft as a bridge until the new aircraft are
delivered.

SCOPE PROPOSAL.

* On 7/14/05 NWA presented Section 1 C. (Small Jets) proposal.
* NWA stated that-
* Other scope modification proposals for joint ventures, successor,
and
fragmentation restrictions were forthcoming.
* Proposed a separate airline "Newco" for Small Narrow-body flying.
* May or may not be existing carrier.
* May or may not be a NWA affiliate.
All Newco aircraft carry NW code.

SMALL JET NEWCO.

* Newco would operate aircraft seating up to 100 passengers.
* No numerical or use restrictions.
* Separate seniority list and employment.
* Flow up/flow and down provisions between Newco and NWA.
* ALPA recognized as the bargaining representation.
* Contract to be long term with no strike/ lockout clause.
* Contract based on Regional Industry average costs.
Expedited interest arbitration to settle disputes.

SMALL JET NON-NEWCO FEEDER CARRIERS (PCL, MSA).

* Could operate aircraft up to 76 seats.
* No numerical or use restrictions.
* Could operate aircraft of any size for other airlines.
Up to 36 AVROs may be operated with NW code with 85 seats and no use
restrictions.

DOMESTIC CODE SHARE.

* No restrictions on domestic code share.
* Meet and confer with ALPA before entering or extending
relationships.
Eliminate certain DL and CO restrictions.

INTERNATIONAL CODE SHARE.

* No restrictions.
* Meet and confer with ALPA before entering or extending
relationships.
Other miscellaneous cuts.


User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4872 times:

Wow, NW is going right for the jugular........

But it seems it is what is nessescary to stay competative.



"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4877 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Looks like Chainsaw Steenland is destroying the airline, too bad their wasn't away to get him fired. Ever since he became CEO he's done nothing but take it in the wrong direction. He's going to end up out of a job if this keeps up one way or another.

I agree, Steenland has done nothing but drive the Red Tail into the ground, just like with YX's, and US's CEOs. I wish Richard Anderson had stayed CEO for longer. I fear NW may go bust if Steenland continues his actions. I like NW, and don't want them to go bankrupt.

-Jeff M


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23021 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
The Jungle Jets are great machines, but CR9s or the C-Series would make more sense from a fleet standpoint.

Judging from the number of DC-9s that NW will have to replace at some point, I don't think picking the Embraers (which aren't made anywhere near the jungle btw) will harm them. Look at UA's domestic narrowbody fleet or even NW in the pre-airbus days (lots of 727s and 9s)... if the subfleets are big enough, commonality really isn't that important. This is especially true if the 100 seaters are not operated by XJ or 9E, which sounds like the case.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineN867BX From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
New information regarding the DC-9's.
Likely they will now be gone within 4 years

I'll believe it when I see it.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Looks like Chainsaw Steenland is destroying the airline, too bad their wasn't away to get him fired. Ever since he became CEO he's done nothing but take it in the wrong direction. He's going to end up out of a job if this keeps up one way or another.

I think Doug was most likely given a mandate to fire up the chainsaw when he accepted the job.

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
DC-9s are great little planes, and the decision to keep them for so long is arguably the reason why they've lasted this long without major financial trouble, but they can't fly them forever

Wanna bet?


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

Quoting N867BX (Reply 22):
I'll believe it when I see it.

Look above at Hammers post, pilots were told likely within 4 years if the airline got its way.

Its time for the Pilots to fight back, save the airline, and tell Steenland to F-off.

Employee morale is getting very low, talking to a few NW employees, they said its no longer a fun place or exciting place to work, and its only going to get worse before it gets better.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4421 times:
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Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 20):
Steenland has done nothing but drive the Red Tail into the ground, just like with YX's, and US's CEOs

And there are morons on this board who are having orgasms that NW is "standing up" to these "horrible unions". like this guy in reply# 5 on this thread:


Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 5):
NW isn't playing around, I think its great. They will not let the union take them down like they have done to so many other airlines. Good job NW, I hope that all the sensible MX that vote against a strike continue their jobs with these great new people and the MX voting for a strike enjoy their broke lives...

This guy thinks it's great that NW is replacing experianced mechanics with people who questionable qualifications. Outsourcing is apart of the industry, but this is crazy. I would like to see this idiot thrown out on his butt after working for 20 years for UA or AA. I think he needs his cage rattled a little. You can love aviation and the aircraft with the logo's on them, but what does any of this matter when these aircraft are unsafe for flight. It's a shame to see these aircraft smoldering in an inferno or the lives of all the passengers we carry, being put in danger.

[Edited 2005-08-11 18:57:17]


Made from jets!
25 GEG2RAP : Just some FYI, Burnsie is up there with Farve and PSU.DTW on NW info, giving some good stuff before. Rumors are all taken with a bit of salt, I was on
26 Jetjack74 : Burnsie speculates just like most people on here does. His dad paases info down o him. On that note, most of us employed by NW, have no clue of what'
27 Indio66 : Question - Would appreciate a response. I have an NWA ticket JFK - AMS - MUC on Sept 15 and then back on Sept 18th (oktoberfest). All segments are ope
28 MattRB : Source for any of that? Somehow, I find it hard to believe that the replacement workers NW has lined up should the MX strike are unqualified. That wo
29 Post contains images Lightsaber : And something has to be done. What part of continuous improvement are the airlines not understanding? The rest of industry has adopted the practice.
30 N867BX : Questionable my ass! I have worked for one of these aviation contractors before. They crawled up my ass with a microscope. For the wages NW is paying
31 Alias1024 : I thought NW was trying to avoid having the pilots honor the mechanics picket line when the strike occurrs. Dropping this on ALPA isn't the way to do
32 Jetdeltamsy : What are you saying here? It's not clear. They want to create a "new seperate" aircraft, or a new "airline within an airline" concept??? This is noth
33 Post contains images 7e72004 : I think NW should pick up some 737-700s
34 Burnsie28 : An airline within an airline using the new 100 seaters.
35 Cubsrule : ...on NW's certificate a la MidAtlantic/US or on a separate certificate a la XJ or OH?
36 Nwafflyer : Oh please, NW does not own a piece of Continental, and NW is still a very viable airline -- not nearly the problems that US Air, United, etc. has Agre
37 AviatorTJ : To me it read that NW wanted to operate Newco as a 9E/XJ style airline flying under the NW banner, flying NW owned and sized metal, and paying 9E/XJ
38 Hjulicher : It seems to me that the new airline "newco" is trying an approach like southwest. If this airline can operate but decrease expenditures because all th
39 Sllevin : 1) NW does, for the record, have one preferential share of CO stock which gives them veto rights over any merger/takeover. 2) If NW goes down the str
40 Jetjack74 : Sources that say they are? Read below. Eastern used replacements. Look what it did for them. I'm not talking about the outsource firms, i'm talking a
41 N867BX : I don't think we are understanding each other. When I mentioned contractors I meant companies that supply "off the street mechanics". The companies t
42 Post contains images 7E72004 : I guess i better start booking some trips on the DC-9s
43 Burnsie28 : Thats exactly what they want to do, just more halfway between 9E/XJ and NW pay scales. thus, it would still be mainline pilots, etc, they had a discu
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