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Helios 737 Cntd. -New Information-  
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 34763 times:

The other thread is already at about 200 posts so I will start a new one where people can add additional information about the crash.

The last report I herd on FOX NEWS said that the F16 pilot could see that oxygen masks had dropped and pax did have them on but appeared to be dead. Could the masks have not been getting oxygen? Where does that oxygen come from, are there special tanks or is it from outside air?


/// UNITED AIRLINES
215 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2687 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34722 times:

There are reports that the 737 was out of contact for 40 or so minutes.
The normal oxygen supply to the masks is circa 12 minutes.

It could be that the masks worked fine, but with an incapacitated flightcrew unable to descend to 10 thousand feet or thereabouts, the pax probably ran out of oxygen.

Wild speculation, but adding a little balance to all the "could this have failed?" or "That didn't work" speculation.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34710 times:

Thanks for that dude. My Computer went mad while loading the other one...


There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34649 times:

Quoting UAL747DEN (Thread starter):
The last report I herd on FOX NEWS said that the F16 pilot could see that oxygen masks had dropped and pax did have them on but appeared to be dead. Could the masks have not been getting oxygen? Where does that oxygen come from, are there special tanks or is it from outside air?

Passenger Oxygen normally comes from an oxygen generator. This is a chemical oxygen candle, that supplies oxygen for about 15 minutes once the chemical reaction gets initiated. The passenger initiates himself by "pulling the mask down" as by doing this a pin will be released and the flow will start. This is also why they always show on a safety demo to "pull firmly down".

Pilots oxygen comes from a installed bottle somewhere around the cockpit. The crew gots "full face masks" which do deliver oxygen under pressure. This system will last longer. As it's under pressure, the crew may also use it if there is for example smoke in the cockpit as the oxygen will clean out the mask.

Crew masks are "quick donning type". By pulling them towards the face, the straps are inflated and the crew can only swap them over the head. By releasing the mask, straps will deflate and the mask will firmly hold on the head.

The crews system is under pressure. Therefore, if an overpressure exists, this system can completely deflate, to prevent an explosion. This can happen for example in hot environment. The crew needs therefore to check before the flight that the system is filled and enough oxygen available. Departing with an empty system can be fatal.

The "third" system are the portable oxygen bottles. They are either used as working oxygen for the cabin crew or may be used also for medical purposes, if a passenger has a need for oxygen.


User currently offlineMGB80 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34587 times:

The flight crew get their oxygen from their own oxygen tank. It is a 115 cu ft tank with minimum 1000 psi.
As for the passengers they have their own supply. It is either their own tank or oxygen generators (canisters in the overhead that chemically make oxygen).
The crew and passengers always have totally independent supplies. The passenger masks drop automatically when the cabin pressure drops to a certain level.
The crew must monitor the system to see if the cabin pressure is within limits. If the crew was not monitoring it then they could be overcome quite quickly ( as in the Payne Stewart accident) My guess is that the crew was incapacitated and the passengers were on oxygen when the plane crashed.


User currently onlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3888 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34494 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting UAL747DEN (Thread starter):
Where does that oxygen come from, are there special tanks or is it from outside air?

I believe there are bottles containing O2 supply should there be a loss of cabin pressure, but when everything works fine the pressurized air comes from either the APU located on the rear of the aircraft or the compressors on each engine.

That particular 737 already encountered pressurization problems on previous flights. It can take as little as 4 minutes to bring an airliner from more than 30000ft down to 10/12000ft. I am convinced the cockpit crew didn't respond quickly enough to bring the plane down to a safe altitude, that's another contributing factor I can think of because a loss of cabin pressure isn't a sole reason for a disaster like flight 522.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2687 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34441 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 5):
I am convinced the cockpit crew didn't respond quickly enough to bring the plane down to a safe altitude

How on earth can you say that. Have you located and analysed the recorders data already? The fires are hardly out yet, but you are judging already?



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34403 times:

Quoting UAL747DEN (Thread starter):
The last report I herd on FOX NEWS said that the F16 pilot could see that oxygen masks had dropped and pax did have them on but appeared to be dead. Could the masks have not been getting oxygen? Where does that oxygen come from, are there special tanks or is it from outside air?

There are two separate oxygen systems on the 737-300:

1- Crew oxygen. Masks don't drop down like they do in the cabin--they're hanging (within easy reach) over the shoulders of the respective shoulders of the pilots. (Left for the captain, right for the F/O.) Supply is from an oxygen bottle, and the duration of it is a long time (hours, not minutes.)

2- Passenger oxygen. Masks drop automatically when the cabin altitude exceeds 14,000 feet. Source of the oxygen is a chemical generator in the overhead passenger service unit (PSU). Duration of this passenger oxygen supply is rather short when compared with the crews, i.e. minutes, like 10-20 (can't remenber the exact figure.) The design rationale was that you needed enough passenger oxygen to sustain life during the time between decompression and prompt emergency descent down to 10,000-14,000 feet where the air has enough oxygen to breath. Passenger oxygen was never intended to be for long duration sustenace.

Based on additional information I've read in various places including pprune, it seems clear to me that the main problem wasn't that the airplane had a decompression, per se. Those happen once in awhile, and aircraft systems, procedures, and crew training routinely turn those into minor events in the big scheme of things. Since the pilots were apparently totally incapacitated before the passengers were, that to me points to some sort of problem with their oxygen supply.

But what? Was the crew bottle serviced with the wrong gas? (Nitrogen? Oxygen that contained water or impurities (like hospital oxygen or welders oxygen) versus the moisture-free aviators breathing oxygen? (Moisture would freeze at altitude). Was the valve on the crew bottle turned on?

Whatever the cause of the crew's inability to get oxygen, once they were incapacitated, the passengers (breathing their limited supply of oxygen) were just along for the ride, at least until they too succumbed. Might well explain why some passnger bodies were found with their oygen masks still on.

Once message I saw on pprune: (NOT my words...)

To further add to the speculation, this accident brings to mind an incident that took place during my B737 classic conversion. One of my colleagues had noticed a lack of oxygen pressure on the preflight flight deck oxygen mask checks. But only because he performed a very thorough oxygen check. The trainer he had been flying with had not picked up on it. This was due to the crew oxygen valve having be shut off the previous evening (Valve down on the F/O's side on the B737 classic) and the residual pressure in the line creating the impression of a properly working oxygen system.

Several operators used to have procedures to shut the supply off over night to prevent leakage. It would be very easy to miss, especially as this would be completely different from the setup on the B737 NG which has the crew oxygen control valve in a more remote position.

I suspect that a problem with the pressurization control panel, the outflow valve, or the packs during the departure was compounded by the crews inability to use their oxygen masks.

The result would be the autopilot climbing to the last assigned altitude and venturing on with an unconcious crew on LNAV until it ran out of fuel.

The situation would be very similar to that which occured to the business jet that crashed carrying a golfer in the US a few years ago.


We'll see what the official investigation reveals....


User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34398 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 5):
I am convinced the cockpit crew didn't respond quickly enough to bring the plane down to a safe altitude,

Then you are a complete fool.

Quoting GARPD (Reply 6):
How on earth can you say that. Have you located and analysed the recorders data already? The fires are hardly out yet, but you are judging already?

Exactly.


User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34326 times:

This happened a few years ago in the USA on a corporate jet. What I understand the whole thing happens so quickly that there is no time to respond and everybody just goes unconsious.

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 989 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34243 times:

>> What I understand the whole thing happens so quickly that there is no time to respond and everybody just goes unconsious.

That isn't completly true. The typical human being has about 30 seconds of useable time in which to don an air-mask before their motor skills and consciousness degrade rapidly. That isn't much time, but a trained cabin crew can do it easily.

If the F-16 escort is correct in that the crew did appear to have masked doned, it would appear to be a failure of the mask/O2 system.


User currently offlineCaptainGomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34214 times:

Garpd and Trident, I would suggest you two be a little more humble towards American767, as what he is suggesting is being presented as mere speculation, and not only that, it has happened before, so it's hardly an unlikely scenario. Crews are constantly being trained to react quickly to a decompression as the reaction time is literally SECONDS. We still don't even know if it was a decompression or not, but based on a passenger saying it was freezing in the cabin it seems likely.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently onlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3888 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34211 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 8):
Quoting American 767 (Reply 5):
I am convinced the cockpit crew didn't respond quickly enough to bring the plane down to a safe altitude,

Then you are a complete fool.

Quoting GARPD (Reply 6):
How on earth can you say that. Have you located and analyzed the recorders data already? The fires are hardly out yet, but you are judging already?

Exactly.

OK. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that. I'm just trying to understand how it happened. Maybe I should have said: I'm wondering if...instead of I'm convinced. My apologies. I know the black boxes have not been analyzed yet.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2687 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34183 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 12):
OK. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that. I'm just trying to understand how it happened. Maybe I should have said: I'm wondering if...instead of I'm convinced. My apologies. I know the black boxes have not been analyzed yet.

Ah, thats much more clear  Smile

At first it seemed you were charging a definate cause.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3045 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34054 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 12):

You dont have to say sorry to anyone if your speculating of what might have happened on that aircraft. Others have been doing this too. You don't need to apologize to Trident or GARPD.

I was the last person post in the other thread. And I asked if this airplane was it either the 737-300 or 800? Because everyone seems to say it was an 300 and then someone else says it was the 800.


User currently offlineMGB80 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33916 times:

According to Helios' schedule - Flight 522 it is supposed to be a 737-300....not sure if they substituted equipment though.
http://www.flyhelios.com/summer_2005.html


User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1021 posts, RR: 45
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33832 times:

I'm just shocked and paralyzed here...
Saw it just a few minutes ago in the news. That's a really, really bad horrible accident. I'm so sorry for all the people on board and their families.
How is it possible that the a/c cooled down so fast? There have been other incident's with lost of cabin pressure. But they could land safely after a fast descent.
I love flying, it's a passion for me. The 737 is a brilliant a/c. But this scares me really...



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33821 times:

Many of the bodies found next to the crashed plane have been deep-frozen...
This has been revealed by the rescue-teams to greek media.So the indication of a major default involving the air-condition/pressurization units seem clearly confirmed.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2926 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33800 times:

Quoting Glidepath73 (Reply 16):
The 737 is a brilliant a/c. But this scares me really...

Is this the first 737 crash because of cabin pressure failure ?



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineFraport From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33733 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
Many of the bodies found next to the crashed plane have been deep-frozen...

Yes, DER SPIEGEL reports the same. A guy from Air Transport Intelligence said that there must have been no circulation of air in the cabin for quite a long time.

[Edited 2005-08-14 21:48:53]

User currently offlineSkyHigh777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33718 times:

What I don't understand is if the plane was flying on cruise altitude of 34,000 feet like some have said, how did it descend to hit a mountain...did it run out of fuel? If it crashed 40km north of Athens, I am sure that there was still plenty of fuel on reserve as many airplanes have in case of emergencies...had it already started it's descent into athens?


Prepare for take-off.
User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33581 times:

If the alleged text-message - which speaks of a cold cabin and blue faces - is accurate, it points to a potential common problem.

Bleed air provides both heating for the cabin AND pressurisation.

Since both the heating and pressurisation apparently failed, I'd be looking very closely at the bleed air system.


User currently offlineMGB80 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33570 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 18):
Is this the first 737 crash because of cabin pressure failure ?

The accident is clearly not a result of cabin pressure failure alone. I'm sure once the cause is found a lot of things willl be a contributing factor.

Quoting SkyHigh777 (Reply 20):
What I don't understand is if the plane was flying on cruise altitude of 34,000 feet like some have said, how did it descend to hit a mountain

If the F/O was slumped over as reported, he could have bumped the control column and disconnected the autopilot ( Eastern Everglades accident.)


User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1048 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 33300 times:

Could it be that the new cockpit safety door has cost 121 lives?

Let us speculate a bit based on facts and "facts":
1. Standard operating procedure says the remaining crew in cockpit has to put on the oxygen mask when the other leaves the cockpit (the F16 crew saw only one in the cockpit and he had the oxygen mask on).
2. The same SOP says the remaining pilot has to lock the cockpit safety door during flight (the only lock switches are inside the cockpit).
3. A rapid decompression happens as the second pilot is on the toilet.
4. The oxygen system in cockpit fails (remote oxygen bottle valve has been left in closed position after the over night parking) and the pilot in the cockpit get unconscious.
5. The returning pilot can't get access to the cockpit since he is locked out of the cockpit (still conscious since he can lend a yellow oxygen cups in the cabin, but can't open the cockpit door - switches can only be operated from inside the cockpit).
6. The pilot in the cabin also looses consciousness in front of the rest of passengers/cabin crew (the alleged SMS tells the pilot is blue and dead).

Could this be it?


User currently offlineZakHH From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 33246 times:

Quoting SkyHigh777 (Reply 20):
how did it descend to hit a mountain...did it run out of fuel?

It was reported that the a/c has circled over the area for some time. Scheduled arrival at Athens was at 10:45, the crash was at 12:20 local time. So obviously, yes, they ran out of fuel.


25 GARPD : Tragically it would seem the autopilot circled the last waypoint entered into the FMS.
26 LN-KGL : GARPD - what about the combination of lack of oxygen (for the returning pilot) and clear thoughts?[Edited 2005-08-14 22:46:05]
27 BY738 : Presumably the passengers found in " deep freeze" were frozen as a result of -40dc temperatures outside during decompression rather than due to an ai
28 AS739X : So the big question seems to me now that if the crew had put on the mask, why did they not decend? What it to late? My heart goes to the family and fr
29 Post contains images GARPD : That indeed could be a possibility. The possible combinations of events is endless.
30 JETPILOT : Lots of crewmembers don't properly preflight their masks. They don't like putting their face where everyone else does without a decontaminating mask w
31 Backfire : It's not obvious at all. Or have you seen the FDR data? The latest reports indicate that passengers were in the cockpit wrestling with the controls.
32 Post contains links DeC : Hello everyone, This is my first post here. I am from Larnaca, CYPRUS, the city from where the airplane that crashed - took off, heading to Athens, GR
33 Vfw614 : German media report the following: - as already mentioned here, the aircraft "circled" for a considerable length of time (approx. 90 minutes) before c
34 SkyHigh777 : I didn't find it to be very obvious either, since none of the news reports confirmed it running out of fuel. Some have begun to think the fighter jets
35 RichM : On BBC news, they said that the fighter pilots reported that they could see what looked like 2 passengers inside the cockpit trying to control the air
36 Spacecadet : Presumably their FMC would have had their entire route pre-programmed. Now, you can't automate the entire process. There is some input required on th
37 FLAIRPORT : Question here, if just the heating failed, would they have been able to survive? Sounds like most people knew what was in store for them from the sta
38 AirxLiban : I would also like to express my condolences to the families of those who perished in this air tragedy. Honeywell makes the Air Cycle Machine for the 7
39 Milan320 : Typical range of a GSM BTS/RBS (Base Station Transceiver) is 32km GSM in Aircraft is a new feature that uses Abis over Satellite. Normal GSM phones d
40 Post contains images Comorin : An excellent first post!    You have clearly summed up all the discussions and have come up with a really good hypothesis. Look forward to seeing y
41 DeC : This topic grows rapidly. When I was writing my first post on the matter, I was still at the previous topic about the crash and some of my questions w
42 DeC : That's what i thought as well. Or maybe a chain of failures that followed the primal cause, led to the disconnection of the auto pilot (i.e. a short-
43 Tundra767 : The Portable Oxygen Bottles the cabin crew would have used would last about 18-20 minutes. This is according to my FA manual.
44 Alberchico : This seems similar to the Lear35 crash that killed a famous golfer a few yeas ago. Is it possible that this could be the result of airline maintanence
45 LN-KGL : The aircraft has been at dba (formerly known as Deutsche BA) up to 31 March 2004 as a full C-check was performed on the aircraft at Berlin-Schönefel
46 DeC : Where do you want to call to? Well, it's a big Christian celebration tomorrow here in Cyprus, and taking into account that our Government has declare
47 Backfire : So I guess it was the passengers' luggage which was burning so fiercely that it took a couple of airborne firebombers to put the flames out...? From
48 DeC : I am aware that we are going off-topic here and i apologize for this. Although i feel that many people would be interested in this one, what does thi
49 BY738 : So it was definitley the 737-300 and not 737-800 ?
50 Comorin : Thanks, DeC. I was planning to call my business contacts. Instead, I will send my message of support via email, and call them later in the week.
51 Post contains links DeC : Yeap, specifically a Boeing 737-31S do a search in any relevant website about '5B-DBY' or visit http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id
52 DeC : Thanks.
53 ZakHH : Okay, I admit it was not "obviously" but "probably" at best - sorry for not being precise, English's not my mother tongue. The fires (as far as I saw
54 Post contains links LN-KGL : 1. Helios flight ZU522 is set up with 733 for the summer of 2005 and 5B-DBY is the only 733 that Helios have. 2. Aviation Satety Network (http://avia
55 Backfire : ZakHH - nothing personal intended. It's just a little too early to make sweeping statements when there's no evidence to back them up. We're all guilty
56 Cpsarras : Awfull, really awfull accident, 40+ children pax ... Theos schorestous, RIP Must have been an sickening feeling for the F-16 pilots watching the doome
57 UAL747DEN : You can make a call using a GSM phone at FL340. I know this for a fact. It would not have went through a satellite as there would need to be special f
58 Aleksandar : What a horrifying way to die. Reading it made me speechless. I heard that, too and it is interesting because nobody have either confirmed it or denie
59 Budyboy : My heartful condolences to the citizens of Cyprus. I can only imagine the horror of being a passenger and realizing the inevitable, and the sadness of
60 Artsyman : The fact that the captain was seen in the cabin makes me wonder if there was a problem with the cockpit oxygen supply and he went into the cabin to ge
61 DeC : Thanks for the reply. I didn’t know that some modern devices could be programmed to automatically try to re-send sms, when the situation finally all
62 MD11LuxuryLinr : One thing I don't understand [yet] is how two people could be conscious and moving about in the cockpit, when all the others are dead and, in some cas
63 Post contains images Milan320 : UAL747DEN is exactly right. I don't want to get into the technical aspects of GSM on Aircraft (I'm currently working with it - but don't blame me whe
64 DeC : Same here, it seems impossible to me as well. And where did you hear this if i may ask? Our Media here in Cyprus didn't report anything like this, i
65 Freedomtofly : I'm gonna agree with you on that one. Do you think the depressurization began in the cockpit? Well anyway it's all over now and my deepest condolence
66 Mika : Actually i would say that this is not as common as some people here make it sound, willingly or not. I have never had a cell phone (had about 6-7 of
67 MD11LuxuryLinr : I saw all this info in this thread. Apparently, there were reports of fighter pilots seeing two passengers at the controls before it crashed.. and th
68 Vfw614 : two more details: The F16 intercepted the boeing over the island of Kea at an altitude of 34.000ft more than 70 minute after the first sign of a probl
69 Post contains links and images Mika : View Large View MediumPhoto © Jan Ostrowski DBY seen during happier days and circumstances with snow covered wings in Warsaw. I put this photo as
70 DeC : That’s my view on it as well, because I know from being in front of the TV for the whole day, that many small fires begun from the crash and then m
71 David L : First of all let me say that I don't "know" and hopefully someone who's in the business will let us know for sure but, as far as I know, the FMC will
72 FlyMIA : Wow. Wonder how they had Oxygen, wonder how far into the problem did this happen. This is one mysterious crash. The CVR and FDR are really going to h
73 Post contains links and images DeC : Really nice and sad - at the same time - photo indeed. If anyone wants to see the plane as it was in the previous company that owned it, before HELIO
74 Vfw614 : Has this been the first real life situation on which many of those trash Hollywood movies are based - both pilots of an airliner becoming incapacitate
75 Aleksandar : Well, it confused me, too. This is what I've heard on CNN few times. I think that BBC World said something similar, but I can't remember at the momen
76 777236ER : Well then the 30 minute CVR is going to be of no use whatsoever.
77 Post contains links and images DeC : Yeah, where's Halle Berry when you need her? (p.s. i am talking about Executive Decision (1996)
78 Traindriver : To DeC My deepest sympathy to you and your country. Those poor people and their families will be in my prayers.
79 Vfw614 : Depends. Some media reports say that the F16 pilots saw two people in the cockpit during their "second approach". If this was at least 10 minutes afte
80 Post contains images Xr8FordGirl : My condolences to the families and friends and parents Thankyou all for helping me to understand, if ony from a specualtive stand point, what happenen
81 Damirc : Weird. 11.20 - the airplane is en-route. 12.05 - it crashes It doesn't seem like fuel starvation to me from this timeline. 45 minutes is imho cutting
82 OPNLguy : There are normally four portable oxygen bottles (POBs), and it's concievable that somebody (F/As, passengers) got ahold of them, and were able (oxyge
83 GARPD : This 737 may have been fitted with a new digital type recorder that records in excess of 120 mins I'm told. Although its not certain what type of CVR
84 OPNLguy : See #83 above...
85 GARPD : But these oxygen bottles last 20 circa minutes. And if the reports are correct, the people seen moving about were passengers. Most I have encountered
86 DeC : Here are my thoughts: Because the passengers get oxygen from a different source than the 2 pilots in the front who have their own bottles. Probably, t
87 OPNLguy : Perhaps, -some- can.... Agreed, we'll have to wait and see....
88 Post contains links DeC : In the meantime, some reliable Media here in Cyprus (e.g. http://www.phileleftheros.com ) confirmed now, as well, the reports coming from the F-16 pil
89 SWISSER : I have never ever thought that an airconditioning-pressurisation/bleed air system failure could have these consequenses... My sincere respect for the
90 Bobster2 : Would a pilotless 737 be able to use all its fuel? Is it possible that the engines were fuel starved because nobody flipped a switch to change tanks?
91 Kaputt : Ok, I do not know if this was stated in any other posts above, as I do not have time to read them right now, but is it possible that the two people wh
92 Post contains links DeC : Some interesting info from Reuters And one that really confused me: I heard this before today, but i forgot about it 'till i read this article now. Wh
93 Comorin : DeC, For some reason, your quotes of me do not correctly point to my post! I don't know how you fix this.... Comorin
94 AeroVodochody : May all the passengers and crew rest in peace. AeroVodochody
95 David L : Again, I'm not in the business, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It may, as mentioned above, hold at or after the last waypoint in the computer if it
96 EMBQA : Is it possible that the engines were fuel starved because nobody flipped a switch to change tanks? There are no tank switchs to flip. Each wing is it'
97 Mrocktor : While the specific events that caused the crash are certainly numerous, I would venture to say that in general terms there are only a few plausible s
98 Post contains links Zamaria : From http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20050814-0 I notice that this particular plane 5B-DBY was built in 1998 though it was a "cl
99 Bobster2 : What happens when the first engine runs out of fuel? Does the autopilot continue flying in that case?
100 CX flyboy : Just a few points to add: 1) For us, we are advised not to use the portable O2 bottles during a depress. The mask and line is not sealed and not desig
101 Wukka : +/- 5 miles, line-of-sight to a ground tower. The biggest problem with GSM/GPRS and altitude is groundspeed, and the inability of the tower radios to
102 Wukka : I can't find it offhand, but I recall reading that the plane's ETA at Athens was supposed to be somewhere around 10:30 AM local. The plane went down
103 Post contains links CX flyboy : It appears that the ETA was 10:45, and the aircraft having departed on time would make that ETA pretty accurate, so the fuel starvation idea has merit
104 Blrsea : This article states the eye witnesses saying that the plane was flying low followed by f-16s. 1. Does it mean it was maintaining holding pattern? 2.
105 OptionsCLE : This is a very good observation and one I've been debating whether or not to post during the entire time I've been watching people argue over the so
106 Abrelosojos : This is one of the scariest crashes of late. I mean, imagine being on that airplane waiting for imminent death and freezing. What a last few weeks ...
107 Allstarflyer : That is huge. Many times in Ops in ORD, the MX controller would tell us to not hold boarding for an aircraft that had "Crew O2" on the Maintenance St
108 Derik737 : He's right. The crossfeed valve is to feed the left tank to the right engine or the right tank to the left engine if a failure occurs (or to correct
109 CX flyboy : On such a short flight like this, I doubt there would have been any fuel in the center tanks, and without a fuel imbalance, the normal procedure is fo
110 Post contains links UAL747DEN : I have been working in communications for about 4 years and I can assure you that when you send a SMS (On most networks but GSM for sure) if that SMS
111 Type-Rated : One thing that hasn't been brought up is that if the engines weren't feeding off of the center tank, they were each feeding off of their respective wi
112 Baw716 : First and foremost, may God grant the victoms of this tragedy and their families peace in this time of pain and horror. There are many statements goin
113 OptionsCLE : I've never flown a 737 but as far as I know the engines don't feed off of one wing tank alone. You could shut the pumps on one side down and still fe
114 Spacepope : The F-16s, while initially intercepting at 34,000 feet, probably stuck with the 737 as it circled lower and lower. The eyewitness accounts of it flyi
115 Spacecadet : "The aircraft was making continuous right-hand turns to show it had lost radio contact." I heard this before today, but i forgot about it 'till i read
116 GoldenArgosy : This is just something I've been thinking about and I'm not trying to draw any conclusions only interested in noting an oddity. If, as some on this th
117 Allstarflyer : Didn't know that. Thx for the correction. -R
118 DC10GUY : I wonder if this isn't another case of the "737 uncommanded rudder problem" again.
119 VHXLR8 : Well, in away, we get oxygen from both sources. When a decompression occurs, F/As would immediately fit a mask that has dropped down (just as the pax
120 Qwerty : I'm not old. But I was young long ago. I think this is the most bizarre incident during my lifetime. That said, on to the WAG-ing and commenting that
121 Jorge1812 : Don't know if it has been posted here before, the thread is too long and I don't have the time to go through all posts. My mum told me in the morning
122 Silver1SWA : Something I don't quite understand is how did the F-16 pilots manage to get such a good view of what was going on inside that 737? Seeing what's going
123 Wukka : Of all of the hypotheses so far, what have you heard / read that would lead you to begin to entertain the idea of a rudder hardover, let alone uncomm
124 Morvious : F16 or any other fighter pilots are well trained to fly in formation. I beleve flying in close formation with a 737 isn't a problem either. Maybe whe
125 DC10GUY : Usair flight 427, And the United 737 at COS, The 737 is suspected of having some kind of hidden rudder control problem.
126 PlanesNTrains : I'm not sure if you're trying to be serious or not. In both of those cases, the aircraft became suddenly uncontrollable and crashed. In this case, th
127 Kesflyer : Has anyone seriously considered the possibility that the plane was actually brought down by the F-16s ??? Remote as it may sound, it is not altogether
128 Mika : Surely it couldnt have been CDMA as we use the GSM system here in Europe. Then why did he not iniate a emergency descent? The absolute natural thing
129 PlanesNTrains : Not to be insensitive, but I'd like to add one (more) plausible thought: I haven't yet heard anything about the cockpit crew's experience level, which
130 Britannia191a : Can I suggest two things to you. One, there has been no indication from what we have heard from any one of the reports in the media that there was a
131 Post contains links Vfw614 : This would fit in with reports that the aircraft apparently "crossed" ATH airport at some point. It might well have been a missed approach resulting
132 Vfw614 : OK, here is an updated timeline put together from various sources (which are contradicting in some details): 9:00 a.m. - scheduled depature time for H
133 ChiefT : Quote from the Cyprus Mail: Helios beset by a history of problem By Jean Christou YESTERDAY’S tragic crash was not the first time Helios had problem
134 CX flyboy : A Boeing aircraft flies in autopilot in two modes LNAV and VNAV. The LNAV control lateral navigation, and the VNAV vertical navigation. If FL340 was
135 CV747 : This "people in the cockpit" story: Information is a precious and dangerous good! It can be used to influence peole's opinion or is used to "scandali
136 Avalon : Equally, has anyone considered that the persons seen trying to fly the plane might in fact have been terrorists trying to fly the plane, and either s
137 DeltaA380 : A sad irony that passengers on an airline named after the god of the sun should freeze to death; my condolences to the families and friends of those d
138 Mika : Circulating around Athens for 1,5 hours until you run out of fuel or get shot down by fighter jets does seriously contradict any theory about possibl
139 CV747 : I really have a problem with this kind of statements. It's yellow press at its best. I have worked in the industry a long time and I cannot remember
140 Miikka : We are getting off-topic but just my contribution. I think you are actually talking on different things. The defaults, which are set in the phone are
141 Mika : Spot on. These kind of comments and attitudes unfortunatelly are today commonplace. I think what you would find out if you made a careful study of ma
142 ChiefT : Please allow me to correct your statement. The Birgen Air accident was followed by one with B757 from AerPeru and had the same cause: Somebody forgot
143 Pilotaydin : This reminds me of Payne Stewart incident...if the decompression was rapid, wouldn't the windows have fogged up? so how did the F-16 pilots see inside
144 CV747 : I don't know about the Peru one. But in the Birgen Air case, one out of several air speed indicator was malfunctioning which can be caused by e.g. a
145 DeC : Nobody mentioned anything about a stall yet, they just said that it begun descending and making tight right turns 'till it was low enough to hit the
146 Squirrel83 : Sorry but this might get us back on topic!! Anyone have an answer for this? If so anyone have a link to the report or flight information. . I would lo
147 Post contains images Fergulmcc : Hear hear, I am an ex aircraft mechanic, 747 Engine maintenance. Thankfully I worked in a company where everything was adhered to. Lets be carefull w
148 Post contains links and images Drinkstrolley : Cockpit of the aircraft View Large View MediumPhoto © Marcel Moschner
149 DeC : From my experience of flying about 6 times per year, from Thessaloniki, Greece OR Athens,Greece to Larnaca, Cyprus and back forth (in various airline
150 SATL382G : If the shades are open on both sides it's pretty easy. They just need to get the view back lit from the windows on the farside, i.e. the F16 pilots l
151 Mika : Indeed. The problems with Alaskan was not speculation though, it says in the NTSB report that the accident was partly caused by the "maximum profit,
152 DeC : That's what i think as well. I believe that it's very possible that the passengers saw all of the crew fainting and going out and (some of those pax)
153 AR385 : There are two events here, according to the info. we have. 1. The airplane required Oxygen all of a sudden. Wether it was a pressurization problem or
154 Post contains links DeC : You can take a look at the location of the accident here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Helios-cras-area.jpg
155 Sudden : So far I have only been reading the posts, with interest, but I do have an issue with all this. Don't get me wrong in any way as I really feel for all
156 Post contains links Mika : I just got a hold of this, swedish media reports that instead of a SMS being sent it was actually a phone called that was made: http://www.aftonbladet
157 747Specialist : We are far away to find all answers regarding this strange and terrible accident. I definitely won’t give my opinion on how all this happen. However
158 Post contains links and images Filton216 : I found this article on BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4151398.stm EXTRACT Tests on the bodies appear to confirm that most of the vi
159 Sq212 : Will Anyone knows which company manufacture the pressurization system for Boeing 737?[Edited 2005-08-15 13:44:17]
160 Philb : BBC Radio 4 News reporting 1 x FDR damaged beyond use so no data can be obtained. Also reporting Helios has grounded all its fleet.
161 Gearup : I was reading in the tech/ops forum that the 737 has a horn which sounds if the cabin altitude climbs above 10,000 feet. It has been mentioned that th
162 DeC : The news about HELIOS AIRWAYS crew refusing to get aboard is true. Our Media here in Cyprus also mentioned this, it was a flight that was supposed to
163 DeC : Is it the only one aboard? Does the B737-300 have only one FDR?
164 CV747 : Mikka, You are absolutely right. I saw recently the dokumentary on the Air Transat A330 which ran out of Fuel in midst of the Atlantic Ocean. The Can
165 DeC : The pilots of the F-16's clearly mentioned that the CO-pilot was in his seat, unconscious and bent forward on the aircraft's controls with his oxygen
166 Sudden : He was not wearing his mask, which I find very strange, to be honest. Aim for the sky! Sudden
167 Sudden : I stand corrected! Thanks and sorry! Still leaves it to why he were not wearing his belt. Aim for the sky! Sudden
168 Post contains links DeC : The official list of the names of the passengers was broadcasted live today, around midday, from our Media, giving out name, surname, address, age and
169 Iakobos : A word about the "reported" cellphone contact... On these essentially line-of-sight links, communication can take place at hundred of miles (even thou
170 ZKSUJ : A bad month for Aviation with so many incidents lately. My condoloences go out to the familys, friends and loved ones of those onboard. May they RIP I
171 Kilavoud : " The crew needs therefore to check before the flight that the system is filled and enough oxygen available. Departing with an empty system can be fat
172 Spike : As always its another one of three: Air France (lucky escape, but a serious crash), the ATR-72 off Bari and now this. Is 'aircrashes always come in th
173 Aleksandar : It is beyond imagination what those misfortunate people on board went through, especially the cousin of Sotiris Voutas who seems to be among the ones
174 Vfw614 : No, there are conflicting reports about the co-pilot. The Cyprus press agency reports this detail about him: "'The F-16 pilots saw that the co-pilot
175 Iakobos : There is nothing AFAIK to conclude they did not shot the plane...nor the opposite. Was the plane fueled at the origin to fly both segments (LCA-ATH-P
176 DeC : Indeed, especially if you consider that 1) we here in Cyprus, are not used to such things like this, as they just didn’t happen in our land ‘till
177 DeC : That's what i asked as well before but didn't get a clear response. It is my view that when an aircraft on autopilot reaches a pre-programmed waypoin
178 S.P.A.S. : CX_Flyboy and DeC, Regarding the start of descent here is my view on the subject: - crew/pax fainted due lack of O2 - plane continues by itself follow
179 DAYflyer : I wonder if perhpas there was an explosive decompression that incapacitated the crew and passengers?? Not due to terrorism, but perhaps some type of s
180 Post contains links Vfw614 : From www.flyhelios.com two minutes ago: Latest News -- All Helios Airways flights are operating as scheduled. -- A further press release relating to t
181 ZSOFN : Is it possible that the 2 other people in the cockpit mentioned above were indeed trying to recover the plane albeit without success, hence the aircra
182 S.P.A.S. : DAYflyier, Guess any structural problems with the plane would have been seen/reported by the F-16s, and, AFAIK, this was not the case... A loss of cab
183 Post contains images OURBOEING : If you look at this picture from reply 149, there is a conflicting altitude reading. The digital display says that its 23000 feet while the analog on
184 S.P.A.S. : OurBoeing, Indeed it is very normal. The digital display is the "altitude preselect window" on the MCP (Master Control Panel) from which the crew cont
185 Vlada : Is this really a BOEING problem, or, if it turns out to be an oxygen and AC system malfunction, is it a maintenance problem at Helios Airways? As I g
186 CV747 : Why? Has the 737 a record of presurisation problems? I have not heard of it. Of course Boeing and the FAA denied the NTSB recommendations, that the 7
187 BCAL : Heartfelt condolences are extended to the families, friends, and colleagues of those who were lost on board the Helios Airways 737. Whether or not the
188 DeC : does the battery go out as well when the fuel ends?
189 Cornish : Surely as it happened in Greek airspace, then it wil be led by Greek investigators. I suspect that the Cypriot authorities would also agree to the Gr
190 Post contains links DeC : The new press release from the HELIOS AIRWAYS: http://www.flyhelios.com/ PRESS STATEMENT HELIOS AIRWAYS Monday. 15th August 2005, 17:00 A Terrible Tra
191 S.P.A.S. : DeC, After a while yes, but in any case the autopilot is not powered by the battery bus. Cheers Salz
192 DeC : I see. Where does the autopilot get power from then? (sorry if this has been answered before, i don't remember now)[Edited 2005-08-15 16:32:11]
193 Post contains links Flykal : Couldn't see this posted previously...but the crew/passenger list has been released. For those who don't speak the language, it won't be of much use,
194 Post contains links Squirrel83 : Here is an article in english about the text message and about the f-16 confirming 2 PAX in the flight deck. "The situation was characterized renegade
195 Post contains links S.P.A.S. : DeC, Electrical power is generated by the engines (or the APU) through the CSD/VSCF generators on "Classic" 737s and through the IDGs on the "NG" 737s
196 Kilavoud : How long has the plane be flying from departure time to crash ? Both Larnaca and Athens are at GMT+2. And according to reply 77, departure time was at
197 Iakobos : Scheduled: 09:00 - 10:45 Actual: 09:07 - 12:04 (supposed) that's 3 min short of 3 hours, instead of the 1h 45min + whatever reserves, provided the pla
198 Columbia107 : The BBC web page has some interesting comments by a Ms. Eileen Hunt from Abingdon, Oxfordshire on the subject matter. She states that in 1987 she on b
199 DeC : Thanks for the detailed explanation.
200 Boegas : I think it's time to change the airline's name, HELIOS by replace the I for a P = HELPOS
201 Vfw614 : German media say that the pilot was 58 years old and from Berlin. I note, however, that the pax list states he was 50.
202 YYZYYT : Some ask how could the passengers have known what they were doing to get into the cockpit? Maybe they were off duty crew? or even flight attendants w
203 Post contains images CON207 : Another terrible dark day for aviation. I was out most of yesterday and never saw the news at all and only heard about this as I was travelling to wor
204 Post contains links AvroArrow : So I guess the black boxes are being sent to France for data recovery: http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050815/w081516.html They seem to be the "go to" coun
205 Contrails : Everyone is focusing on the pressurization/oxygen issue, which appears to have had a bearing on what happened, but I can't get past all the other litt
206 Hemispheres : Wasn't there a Hawaiian 737 that suffered a massive depress back in the late 80's when a portion of the fuselage ripped off? I'm not sure when in the
207 Vfw614 : That was on April 28, 1988 on Aloha airlines flight 243 from Hilo to Honolulu and it happened somewhere near Maui at an altitude if 24.000 feet. I gue
208 BCAL : It was the Aloha 737-297 on 28 April 1988. At FL240 it suffered a massive depress when an 18 ft section of the fuselage was ripped away taking a F/A
209 Litz : Fuel starvation to an engine (which would kick the autopilot off, resulting in loss of control and then the crash), does not neccesarily mean zero fu
210 DeC : That was a B737-200 from what i remember
211 Lewis : I have been watching the news the past few hours and there are some things that need to be answered: *How come the "super cameras" of the F-16s (as we
212 David L : Can someone in the know clear up this "fogging" business? It's my understanding that the cabin atmosphere will only become foggy if the pressure is re
213 Post contains links AC320 : Helios 737 Discussion, Part 3 (by GARPD Aug 15 2005 in Civil Aviation)
214 Beaucaire : It seems the SMS was phoney and greek police arrested a man in conjunction with sending a wrong SMS ( source :PPRUNE )
215 RedAirForce : From CNN: "The body of a woman flight attendant was found in the wreckage of the cockpit, a spokesman said." So, if this is right, then not all the fl
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