Quote:
Grammatiko, GREECE - A Cypriot plane full of vacationers slammed into a mountainside north of Athens on Sunday after at least one pilot lost consciousness from lack of oxygen, killing all 121 people aboard, more than a third of them children.
The cause of Greece's deadliest plane crash appeared to be technical failure _ resulting in high-altitude decompression _ and not terrorism, authorities said. A transport official said the 115 passengers and six crew may have been dead when the plane went down.
Squirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 21671 times:
A man whose cousin was a passenger told Greece's Alpha television he received a cell-phone text message minutes before the crash. "He told me the pilots were unconscious. ... He said: "Farewell, cousin, here we're frozen," Sotiris Voutas said _ indicating the plane was cold, a sign of decompression.
I guess this statement is false due to the recent arrest? Can anyone confirm this?
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 21561 times:
For those who'd like to know more about decompression, here's an article (referenced on pprune) that I'm sure you'll find very informative. It's an 8-page .PDF file, about a ten-minute read, and well worth it. It would certainly answer many of the questions popping up on the various related threads..
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8950 posts, RR: 45 Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 21366 times:
Thanks for the link, OPNLguy. Unfortunately, I have to go out shortly and by the time I get back I should think we'll be on to Part 4 of this discussion.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 21206 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 5): Thanks for the link, OPNLguy. Unfortunately, I have to go out shortly and by the time I get back I should think we'll be on to Part 4 of this discussion.
Any time...
Here are some other links that people may find helpful....
The 737 air conditioning and pressurization system:
Jush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 21184 times:
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 2): For those who'd like to know more about decompression, here's an article (referenced on pprune) that I'm sure you'll find very informative. It's an 8-page .PDF file, about a ten-minute read, and well worth it. It would certainly answer many of the questions popping up on the various related threads..
Wow mate thank you very much indeed for that link. I read it all and it was great stuff to read about. Totally interesting.
It took me more than 10 minutes though but that's because English isn't my first language and i had to check on a few words.
Thanks
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3278 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 21043 times:
According to German media, post mortems have proved that not all passengers were dead when the aircraft crashed, but still alive at this point and died from the impact forces (while others were frozen to death). So obviously the aircraft did not remain at FL340 until fuel ran out (unless it would be possible to survive at -50° C for a longer period of time).
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 23 Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 20943 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4): Sorry to ask this, but what arrest? Couldn't find anything on this subject. Thanks.
I have searched too, and nothing comes up apart from a posting on another airline website
Quote: It appears that the story with the SMS from the doomed airctaft was fabricated. According to greek media, police have arrested the person who made up the story...
I also picked up this
Quote: BBC NEWS REPORTS at 1920:
Cypriot Police are raiding the airline's offices after applying for a search warrent, possibly as part of a criminal investigation.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
OV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 852 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 20940 times:
One thing's bugging me. The F-16 pilots reported the Captain was not in the cockpit, so he must have been in the passenger cabin. And then again, there were two non-pilots struggling for the controls? What I can't understand is, I always thought the anti-terrorist door was designed to close automatically. If it would, how could the non-pilots get to the office up front?
Derik737 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 325 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 20768 times:
Quoting BCAL (Reply 9): Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
Sorry to ask this, but what arrest? Couldn't find anything on this subject. Thanks.
I have searched too, and nothing comes up apart from a posting on another airline website
From CNN:
Meanwhile Monday, police in northern Greece said they had arrested a man who said he had received a telephone text message from a passenger on board the doomed plane, according to AP.
Police said the man was Nektarios-Sotirios Voutas, 32, who had told Greek TV stations Sunday his cousin texted him minutes before the crash saying: "Farewell, cousin, here we're frozen."
Authorities said they believed the man was lying, and his cousin's name was not on the Cypriot government's official list of victims.
Investigators felt the airline was not forthcoming enough with records. No violence or arrests.
The last three paragraphs of this article talk about the man arrested for the sms message:
Quote: Meanwhile Monday, police in northern Greece said they had arrested a man who said he had received a telephone text message from a passenger on board the doomed plane, according to AP.
Police said the man was Nektarios-Sotirios Voutas, 32, who had told Greek TV stations Sunday his cousin texted him minutes before the crash saying: "Farewell, cousin, here we're frozen."
Authorities said they believed the man was lying, and his cousin's name was not on the Cypriot government's official list of victims.
Litz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1678 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 20694 times:
Quoting OV735 (Reply 10): One thing's bugging me. The F-16 pilots reported the Captain was not in the cockpit, so he must have been in the passenger cabin. And then again, there were two non-pilots struggling for the controls? What I can't understand is, I always thought the anti-terrorist door was designed to close automatically. If it would, how could the non-pilots get to the office up front?
The latest cnn.com article states they found the body of one of the flight attendants in the cockpit wreckage, which would correspond to the F-16 pilots reports of noncrew in the cockpit.
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 23 Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 20696 times:
Quoting OV735 (Reply 10): I always thought the anti-terrorist door was designed to close automatically. If it would, how could the non-pilots get to the office up front?
It is bugging me as well. I am no expert so I asked the question and was told that a code can open the door, and possibly a F/A knew the combination although I would think the code would only be known to very few as otherwise it defeats the whole objective of ensuring that no unauthorised person can enter the cockpit in flight.
What also is baffling me is that it was reported that the flight had problems with one AC Pack before departing LCA. If one pack is u/s, their ceiling should have been FL250, so there is more time of consciousness in case the only serviceable pack fails. Why then was the flight at FL340?
It frightens me to think that both pilots were unconscious and nobody was flying the plane, so it is vital that they fully establish what happened. I dread to think what the passengers were going through
[Edited 2005-08-15 21:23:00]
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
GARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 1924 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 20676 times:
I always thought the SMS message was a red herring.
What I do not understand is how some pax appear to have froxen to death in flight an others died from impact trauma.
VC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3651 posts, RR: 43 Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 20579 times:
Quoting BCAL (Reply 15): If one pack is u/s, their ceiling should have been FL250, so there is more time of consciousness in case the only serviceable pack fails. Why then was the flight at FL340?
Are you talking specifically about the 737? The 340 has no altitude restriction in certain circumstances
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 23 Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 20514 times:
Quoting VC-10 (Reply 17): Are you talking specifically about the 737?
Yes, I am told that this specifically relates to the 737, but as I said I am no expert, so I am trying to find out if there is any truth in this. Perhaps tech/ops would have been a better forum?
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
StarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 20309 times:
Here's something I don't understand:
Assuming this greek guy's faking his SMS, which sounds somewhat dodgy anyway.
If the plane decompresses.. why did the pilots not descend ?
If you are alive, a passenger and found myself in a flying hearse but it appears to be flying.. my objective would to be find the radio not the gear stick.... which the plane obviously did for over an hour.
However all of this is pointless to the next one..
If the pilot had a problem, why didnt he ?
a. Report it.
b. Descend
c. Divert to Turkey (regardless the political situation).
In my thoughts this leads to two things:
1. Reported an AC problem, failed to see the gravity of the problem (or ignored it if this was a known and frequent problem) and / or ignored the option to land in Turkey or other island.
2. Major Decompression.
3. Oxygen supply failure.
4. Terrorism still cannot be ruled out.. maybe something was in the air supply ? Though I would suspect this is a remote possibility.
All before the aircraft even reached Greek airspace.
What temperature do most electronics stop responding ?
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
NIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 20283 times:
Just read that Greek police have raided the airlines headquarters or something. This is getting crazier by the minute. The guy who said he got a text message from his cousin as he knew he was dying is arrested and supposedly his cousin was not on the flight list. F16 pilots are reporting seeing all sorts of things. Some one trying to regain control I think I read. Where is the Captain while this is happening. Too weird. Hope the CVR could tell us something.
Clickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9261 posts, RR: 77 Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 20208 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SCREENER
They have said the CVR is in bad shape, so we might never know.
I read that the plane was hijacked and was going to be crashed into the USS Theodore Roosevelt, so who knows what is truth and what is internet rumor(s).
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 61 Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 20176 times:
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20): Just read that Greek police have raided the airlines headquarters or something. This is getting crazier by the minute. The guy who said he got a text message from his cousin as he knew he was dying is arrested and supposedly his cousin was not on the flight list. F16 pilots are reporting seeing all sorts of things. Some one trying to regain control I think I read. Where is the Captain while this is happening. Too weird. Hope the CVR could tell us something.
I agree, this is all getting a bit too strange......and taking attention away from the key issue, what went wrong on that airplane?
Redngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 54 Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 20169 times:
I'd like to add a little forensic knowledge (and I stress "a little") to the mix here.
Rigor mortis sets in anywhere from 6-12 hours after death and can last 72 hours. Bodies of people who die sudden and violent deaths may end up with cadaver spasm which is responsible for "silent scream" and "still holding tight" appearances. In addition, extreme heat such as that produced by an explosion can cause cadaver spasm: bodies end up curled into a fetal position well before they are fully cremated.
All of this said, bodies that are rigid and cold may not be frozen solid. This condition is more likely caused a combination of both cold and rigor mortis. I highly doubt that any bodies will be found to have crystalline ice at the core (in the heart and thoracic/abdominal aortas.)
OV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 852 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 20164 times:
Quoting BCAL (Reply 15): I am no expert so I asked the question and was told that a code can open the door, and possibly a F/A knew the combination although I would think the code would only be known to very few as otherwise it defeats the whole objective of ensuring that no unauthorised person can enter the cockpit in flight.
Indeed. I'm no expert either, but I've seen on a cockpit video how the 'doorbell' rings and the pilot electronically opens the door lock to a F/A. Of course, this probably might be airline, or even crew specific in some cases, however as you say, it does render the whole secure door system pretty much pointless.
Quoting Litz (Reply 14): The latest cnn.com article states they found the body of one of the flight attendants in the cockpit wreckage, which would correspond to the F-16 pilots reports of noncrew in the cockpit.
And still, the question remains, did the Captain let the F/A in when coming out of the cockpit himself, did the F/O, before he passed out or did the F/A indeed know the keycode for the door. If the flight deck crew had the time to operate the door (which seems to me as not a first priority in case of an emergency on board), they should have had time to do something about the deteriorating situation on board, before becoming incapacitated. But time, as it appears, they unfortunately didn't have.
[Edited 2005-08-15 22:10:50]
25 RobertS975: As for the CVR being helpful, I believe that it only records the last 30 minutes or so, so it may well be that the co-pilot was unconscious throughout
26 BCAL: Perhaps it might reveal the identities of the two people whom the F-16 pilots saw in the cockpit, which might in turn give the investigators somethin
27 OV735: In the earlier threads, someone stated that the plane might be equipped with the digital CVR that records around 120 minutes. But even that might be
28 Artsyman: Seeing as the Voice and Data recorders loop, the chances of anything interesting being on them is remote. The incident that ultimately doomed thins f
29 LTBEWR: The link that OPNLguy put up is an excellent disucssion of the health issues as to decompression and how thin the margin above 24,000 Ft./7,500 M to r
30 Alessandro: Swedish media claim the black-boxes has been sent to France.
31 Jacobin777: CNN is reporting that the Greek Coroner is reporting that some of the pax were alive when the pane crashed... turns out the text message was a hoax
32 Lumberton: Clickhappy: Where did you read this? Was it on a news site? Cheers
33 Greasespot: Here is my view. The o2 bottle was probabbly turned off. (the O2 bottle is in the forward cargo pit and the crew would have no access to the valve on
34 Clickhappy: Well, I don't know if I would call it a "news" site, as they tend to deal with conspiracy theories as well as 'normal' news. I don't agree with what t
35 Mirrodie: I havent read the other 2-3 parts of this thread but WOW. Just 7 months ago, I read an aviation thriller about an fictitious aircraft called the Strat
36 Revelation: I've read this explanation in a few different places, and I have to wonder why nothing has come along all these years to replace such a flawed test f
37 JBLUA320: Mirrodie, I'm not sure if were talking about the same book, but a while back, I read The Lions Gate which had a similar plot.. Interesting, but creepy
38 Alberchico: It was called ''Mayday'' by Nelson DeMille
39 Luxair_ca: dear all it would be maybe wise, not to discuss the function of the armored cockpit door in an open forum. this information is for insider only, and n
40 Qwerty: Non-issue. I'm a fan of conspiracy stuff, but is the Big Stick (CVN71) even in the Med? That would be the easiest way to stop this rumor right now. N
41 Backfire: Turkish ATC reported the 737 transmitting transponder code 7700 - an emergency, not the hijack code.
42 Spacecadet: Ok, I'm about ready to discount the sabotage theory (though not totally), even though I brought it up in the earlier thread. But, the only other possi
43 Jrw261: Just a thought... But why not have autopilot require frequent inputs/confirmation (every 20-30 mins) that would indicate pilot presence or conciousnes
44 NIKV69: Well its obvious the cabin lost pressure. Now we need to know what the captain was doing. Why he couldn't use O2 and get that plane down. Why the sec
45 We're Nuts: If there were a rapid decompression at FL340, wouldn't moisture in the relatively warm cabin air have crystallized on the windows and prevented the fi
46 IrishMD11: F/A's know the access code(even if it might be modified regularly) to open the cockpit door... Slan for now. Gerry
47 Qwerty: Regardless of whatever O2 problem is eventually mentioned in a final incident report, I think it comes down to failure to lose altitude. The fact that
48 EMBQA: F/A's know the access code(even if it might be modified regularly) to open the cockpit door... Access Code...? What access code...? I have yet to see
49 Md80fanatic: If some of the passengers and crew froze to death (they were described as blue) and others appeared to be alive....coupled with still no report of fog
50 GoldenArgosy: Here's a photo of the Avianca 707 crash of 1990 in Cove Neck, New York due to fuel starvation. http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/avianca52/photo.shtml
51 EMBQA: I mean they were blue....blue is a sign of poisoning (cyanosis), not freezing. No, 'blue' is a result of lack of oxygen to the body....and guess what
52 OPNLguy: Not a flame, just a question, but what's the connection between food poisoning and the flightcrew reporting pressurization problems to ATC?
53 MD80fanatic: Guess what happens when a body has cyanide poisoning? That's right....the person cannot get any oxygen...the cyanide removes the blood's oxygen trans
54 L410Turbolet: I thought that cyanide causes paralysis of the muscles which enable you to breathe and a as a result you suffocate. That's CO - carbon monoxide - whi
55 MD80fanatic: Yes, that sounds reasonable. My bad.
56 CX777FAN: If the guy who claims to have received an SMS from his cousin on board was a hoax, how or why did his message point to "evidence" in line with pressur
57 NIKV69: The 707 that crashed here had totally run out of fuel. It is obvious there was fuel left on that 737. Or it would have not sparked off the fires it d
58 MD80fanatic: The ATC, I don't know...the crew had reported pressurization issues with that airframe at least once before in the very recent past....seems reasonabl
59 L410Turbolet: CX, the story with the SMS message appears to be a complete hoax: Greek police arrested a man who told television stations minutes after the crash tha
60 GoldenArgosy: I'm into that explanation. It is very logical. But please clarify. Would a jet in the process of running out of fuel be enough of a reason to knock i
61 We're Nuts: In a rapid decompression, one would only have seconds to react before succumbing to hypoxia. Try holding your breath right now. The average person ca
62 MD80fanatic: Also, has anyone noticed how much that supposed SMS message has changed since it was first reported? Now it is claimed the message went something like
63 Greasespot: Here is something that I thought after a while. While i still believe that they will find the O2 bottle valve in the off position...What if the O2 bot
64 Hmmmm...: In the Payne Stewart crash, wasn't it a closed O2 valve that was the culprit there? If the plane lost pressurization quickly, and the pilots didn't ha
65 Qwerty: Your point is great if the captain had been strapped in on impact, evidence seems to not indicate that. My point is if there was time to get up and o
66 CX flyboy: In our fleet, all the doors are fitted with a numberpad. If someone wants to get in, they must enter the correct number, which sounds a "Beep Beep" i
67 JAM747: If the flight attendants were the persons seen in the cockpit by the F16 crew I wonder why they did not use the radio to communicate with ATC? I am c
68 NAV20: The aeroplane was bound for Athens Airport and Air Traffic Control would have instructed it to begin its descent for landing about 100 miles out. Nor
69 We're Nuts: Under ideal conditions I would agree, but if oxygen levels in the blood had already decreased, his judgment may have sunk to a point that is incompre
70 BCAL: Are F/As trained in the use of radio communications?
71 Singh4US: Dangerous Goods Theory: Has it been disclosed if the aircraft had any dangerous goods, i.e.: dry ice, listed on the cargo manifest? If there was a lar
72 Hmmmm...: I am curious why anyone conscious enough to be trying to control the plane did not speak on the radio. Well, she probably did not know how to use the
73 BCAL: A question that I am often asking is what exactly would the air force or defence experts do about a pilotless large aircraft flying over their territo
74 NAV20: About descending for oxygen, I believe that oxygen deprivation renders you unconscious within two minutes or so. Nornal rate of descent is around 2,00
75 EZEIZA: regarding the SMS, is it possible to trace the message? Is there a way for telling exactly when and from where has a text message been sent? regards a
76 We're Nuts: I wasn't able to find a maximum emergency descent rate for the 737 (obviously it varies greatly), but I did find this incident report. The aircraft e
77 Qwerty: At the temperatures in the cargo compartment, non-issue, absent some unattended chemical reaction. Even so, that's a crapload of dry ice and it would
78 Wdleiser: OK here is a possible scenario: Slow air leak(slow decompression), mistakened for faulty AC unit. Captain goes back to check on this. Then explosive d
79 Silver1SWA: If there were a rapid decompression at FL340, wouldn't moisture in the relatively warm cabin air have crystallized on the windows and prevented the fi
80 Theredbaron: Good comments.... I am sorry for all the loss of life, but this terrible accident is making more questions than answers, I hope we have a decent repo
81 Icecold: Finnish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat reported that the text message was fake. I couldn´t find a link in English. But the news says that the man is arr
82 CX flyboy: There is a saying that all pilots know: "Aviate, Navigate, communicate" and in that order. Communications is a fairly low priority when you are deali
83 CV747: Moyen Marc, you are right, it does not belong here. It would't jepardize your daily work. (I thing those security doors are stupid. It's another outc
84 Mika: Most likely this message was never even sent from any phone to this guys phone. He just made the whole thing up. I came to think of one thing that co
85 EZEIZA: I think so too, but if he continued to claim it was a true SMS, could it be traced? regards
86 We're Nuts: The NTSB pounded the hydraulic lines and control systems with every conceivable force during the USA427 investigation. They are pretty much bulletpro
87 NAV20: Very possible that they did something like that. But, minus the pilots, the aeroplane would have continued on whatever course was set on the autopilo
88 Mika: Surely it could. Your cell phone operator knows where and when you sent specific messages and made calls to, so the police surely could get the infor
89 Stall: It seems that a few people think that the F16 shot down the 737. I don't see why they should have. Ok a 737 without a pilot is a threat to people on t
90 Sulman: I wasn't surprised the text message was faked; frankly I never believed it. Similar stories emerged after the Flash Airlines accident and AA587. The r
91 HAWK21M: Aircraft Equipment come from Approved sources with Approved facilities.The Fittings differ & the O2 cylinder sizes are too. The Indication in the Coc
92 NAV20: Just heard on radio news that the FDR has been recovered and contains some data, but that they have only found the cover of the CVR - looks like it wa
93 Jeb94: Keep in mind, the F-16 pilots have excellent eyesight and they are not looking up at the windows. They can fly at a level to see straight into the cab
94 We're Nuts: Same difference. I should have been more specific. The hydraulic fluid is heated separately, and while I don't know how extremely cold temperatures w
95 Stretch: Didn't Payne Stewart's plane get followed/escorted by fighter jets also? Not as a shoot down scenario, but a ground safety precaution following the pi
96 Warszawa: Same here...I recall seeing a program on Discovery Channel... " Crash Files "? (something like that? I havent seen it on in a while). I recall one in
97 Vfw614: Well, if you notice that your cockpit 02 supply does not work and you know that you are on FL340 and need to loose approx. 20.000ft to reach breathab
98 Jgold47: very good book, I love reading airplane disaster books while I am flying, scares the other pax... anyways, this seems like such an interesting crash
99 FLAIRPORT: See about half of the above posts...we've been comparing this to the Payne Stewart crash for 3 days now!
100 Gearup: I agree, however you can leave it too late too. Before the iron curtain was removed, an East German Air force or Soviet Airforce Mig23 was on a train
101 ACDC8: Just a thought on my behalf, and I apologize if this has been covered in one of the hundreds of replies on this accident already, it's hard to keep tr
102 CV747: HI, you are right. It was a Russian Mig and it was intercepted by Nato Fighters. The thing flew over the most densly populated area in Germany, The R
103 NAV20: Makes a lot of sense to me too, Vfw614. If so, whoever stayed at the controls was an authentic hero. Qwerty, it was established above that, even at a
104 Rabenschlag: cnn reports that the co-pilot as well as passengers were alive when the plane crashed and died from the impact. this is so odd. what knocked out those
105 Greasespot: I know the fittings are different. I am just going to the conspiracy side that it might have been filled with nitrogen ON PURPOSE... Also I went and c
106 Mrocktor: No. Airplanes are designed to be safe when decompressed, which includes the effects of low temperatures. Thermal inertia would not permit instant fre
107 Debonair: Okay, lets may things straight... I can give some more information to this topic... o2 well, it doesn't metter if the oxygen-bottle is under the cockp
108 Iakobos: As far as official reports go, the answer is no. The 737 was intercepted over the island of Kea at its cruise level (340). The time of intercept does
109 Warszawa: Ok...well, as I mentioned, havent had time to read the million posts on this Helios 737 crash.
110 BHXFAOTIPYYC: There is some assumption that the cockpit door was locked and may have been breached. I would just like to suggest that is entirely possible that the
111 SuseJ772: Ok, this is my first post ever (even though I've been reading forums for 3 years now), and I am posing this as a question looking to be disproved. But
112 Hmmmm...: Obviously, in my opinion, the plane did not run out of fuel. The plane descended in a wings level attitude to mountain level and inpacted the terrain.
113 SuseJ772: After the plane decompressing, and with out a oxygen mask? If the FA could bring it down (even if it was uncontrolled) why couldn't the Pilot or FO?
114 Rabenschlag: now, given that passengers and the co-pilot were obviously alive when the plane hit the ground, the decompression may have been not that bad at all.
115 DENplanenut: Does anyone remember the scene at the beginning of Tom Cruise's Mission Impossible 2? In the movie, a 747-400 suffers high altitude decompression whil
116 MD11Engineer: If I were an investigator, I would look for the O2 system shut off valve, which is located behind the F/O seat. As MEL said, a closed bottle valve wo
117 GARPD: Clearly if such artifacts from the cockpit have survived they will definately be scrutinised. Lets hope the cockpit survived in some manner. Could an
118 We're Nuts: I think the word "alive" is getting thrown around here too much. Hypoxia and hypothermia both act first by slowing down the heart rate, thus creating
119 Iakobos: Welcome on the forum The flight was supposed to last 1h45, the plane crashed approx. 1h18 AFTER scheduled flight time. I assume this is consistent wit
120 Tomys: I read in our newspaper they really considered to shut the Helios Airways' Boeing down due to security reasons. Aircraft was without control, so calle
121 Qwerty: No pilot is going to get out of his seat during an emergency. It would have taken only seconds to tweak the autopilot. A pilot will fly the plane and
122 We're Nuts: You are forgetting that if this was a slow leak, which seems much more likely at this point, he had been breathing air that contained progressively l
123 Qwerty: If it was a slow leak, instruments would alarm when cabin altitude was too high. There is no progressively bad air issue.
124 Milan320: Should be no problem, either the MSC will have a record of it (carries all of the subscribers' info - more precisely the HLR) and possibly the SMS Ga
125 GARPD: With all due respect, we do not know anything about what happened on board. Much less why the Captain was not in his seat. Its possible we may never
126 We're Nuts: But the aircraft was known to have had problems like this in the past. Is it possible they ignored the warnings?
127 David L: I'm as mystified as anyone (which is hardly surprising) and the only glimmer of an explanation seems to me to be one comment, unsubstantited as far a
128 GARPD: I think we are all focusing too much on the aircraft past issues. Although we should not discount them, we certainly should not base all our theories
129 We're Nuts: You are correct. We're all just chasing our tails here. I merely wanted to explain to the forum members that under certain conditions, the actions of
130 Debonair: I just wanna come back on one issue, about the cockpit oxygen masks. we are talking about a B737-300 build in 1998!!! not a DC-9, build in 1977!! it i
131 Qwerty: GARPD, in Reply 125, I did not say what you quoted. You might want to edit - that was someone's response to me.
132 David L: Which is why I said it was unsubstantiated, described it as "a glimmer of an explanation" and said it was clutching at straws. Checking various links
134 GARPD: No idea how that happened. My apologies. Doesn't seem I can edit now anyway, I see no "edit" button or text
135 Startknob: When we assume that the CVR box was empty (s. Reply 131, German TV website) then there are three possible things that could have happened with the CVR
136 GARPD: Neither. This tragedy ran for over 2 hours from start to its horrific finish. The standard CVR runs for only 30 mins before it record over the previo
137 Startknob: Hm, sorry GARPD, I was not clear: The CVR is probably totally useless to shed light into the things that happened - as you state absolutely right in r
138 Tockeyhockey: is it possible that the captain just happened to be getting up, in the lav or something like that, when the depressurization happened? might that expl
139 AsstChiefMark: They haven't found the other pilot, yet. Is it possible that there never was a second pilot? Mark
140 GARPD: I think the most likely case is the CVR case smasged open on impact, allowing the inner workings to "spill" out.
141 JAM747: There has been a lot of speculation that the captain was not in his seat. Even though the F16 pilots did not see him it does not mean that he left. It
142 Litz: Consider also : Captain went to the cabin to fetch an emergency O2 bottle, collapses *in the doorway* ... door is now open, FA gains access to the co
143 MD11Engineer: You obviously have no knowledge about how the cockpit crew oxygen masks work. If either the bottle valve or the system shut off valve were closed, or
144 NAV20: About the aeroplane circling for something over an hour, and spiralling down. I believe that nowadays the GPS (Global Positioning System) is coupled t
145 FLAIRPORT: Were 733s built in 1998? Thats true...hypothermia effects some quicker than others explaining why some may have been alive. However, we do not know c
146 Mika: All i can say is that in MS Flight Sim 2004/2002/2000 etc it does this, it circles around the last given navigational aid in the flight plan, then if
147 Hawker: Don't know if someone else has mentioned this yet, but latest reports say the 2 persons seen in the cockpit by the F16's were identified from video as
148 Kesflyer: Have heard the exact same news myself from another forum. Amazing that another trained pilot could not take control of the aircraft. Could this have
149 Vfw614: OK, let's get this straight: Your assumption is that - the pilots find out that they are not on O2 - they decide both to stay in the cockpit instead
150 ACEregular: It just seems odd that this aircraft was involved in an incident landing in Larnaca late last year, whereby some occupants had passed out. I think if
151 We're Nuts: Remember Occam's Razor! Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.
152 Vfw614: 1. Where is the body of the Captain ? It cannot disappear if they have found 120 corpses reasonably intact and I am sure by now they have turned every
153 Noelg: If the captain was slumped over the controls, this would disengage the autopilot if there was enough pressure. Is it true that the wreckage was spread
154 Iakobos: As of yesterday evening, 2 (perhaps 3 ?) corpses had not been found, including the German captian. Of the recovered 119 (118 ?) corpses (many are not
155 Tockeyhockey: this conversation leads me to the next logical question, one that may be best answered in tech-ops, but i'll let it fly here anyway: is there any way
156 Mandala499: Turkish ATC reported the 737 transmitting transponder code 7700 - an emergency, not the hijack code. 7700 after 7500 means "situation deteriorating. H
157 LTBEWR: I would assume that the Greek aviation authorities have jurisdiction to investigate this crash. Besides the French aviation authorities being consulte
158 N328KF: Boeing has said that it did not sign off on MX certification in 2004, as was previously thought: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ogy/2002442821
159 NAV20: Some good points in there, Mandala499. Two points to add:- 1. It's unlikely that the two FAs knew the full situation at first. It would have taken tim
160 Iakobos: There is a 4-person team from the NTSB including the person who was in charge of the Payne/Learjet investigation. (Mr Brenzon ?) ATC does not give a
161 AMSSFO: Cover-up theories are always nice isn't it? Some of your assumptions are not based on the facts as known: Why do you assume that the plane followed a
162 DAYflyer: Pilots Union said there are too many contradictions in stories of flight: UK Pilots Group: Cypriot Plane Crash Details "Don't Add Up" Wednesday August
163 Mrocktor: No, it takes longer to reach ~15.000ft than one is able to remain conscious, it is perfectly possible to survive the descent without oxygen. Of cours
164 Iakobos: The descent, from FL340 up to the time of impact, took 24 minutes. The a/c was indeed spiralling (clockwise ?) One theory is that there was loss of pr
165 Qwerty: You're thinking about what you would logically do. What a pilot would do is very different. THEY FLY THE PLANE FIRST. Crew would have preflighted the
166 AMSSFO: At first sight that's true. But you already put forward a possible explanation in another thread:
167 Bobster2: A news report today said there was a badly burned body in the cockpit and it might turn out to be the captain. If this is true, why was this informat
168 We're Nuts: I don't know about in other countries, but in America emergency squawk codes are very rarely used. They are reserved for if the pilot cannot contact A
169 Mandala499: NAV20, 1. It's unlikely that the two FAs knew the full situation at first. It would have taken time for them to piece it together and decide to try to
170 Mrocktor: Bingo. Of course, but after a couple minutes at 10.000ft the crew would regain consciousness and proceed with the flight. The crew was incapacitated
171 Mandala499: Of course, but after a couple minutes at 10.000ft the crew would regain consciousness and proceed with the flight. If they're not brain dead by then..
172 NAV20: Just thinking aloud - but maybe it wasn't a decompression at all? There had been reports of the crew of that aeroplane complaining of cold on previous
173 HAWK21M: Bleed is extracted frm the Bypass air & not Exhaust side.There is a recirculating fan available too. Why has Gas poisoning been eliminated. regds MEL
174 Qwerty: Well I don't think anything has been eliminated, except some of my ideas by others who have their own storylines. Do you mean gas from an outside sou
175 NAV20: Quite a comprehensive article here. Says that the investigators have almost ruled out decompression/oxygen starvation and are thinking about some form
176 We're Nuts: Don't the cabin masks mix ambient air into the flow by design? It wouldn't take much CO, or some more lethal mix, before each breath proved deadly.
177 JAM747: just saw this info regarding the investigation of fumes and possible causes of death http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...dc7f2-0dad-4082-9872-0561
178 HAWK21M: Qwerty...Not ruling out any other possibility but. I mean Terrorist attack. In case the leak of gas was near the Cabin area near cockpit compounded b
179 HighFlyer9790: I was A few miles away when from it when it crashed. As I was swimming i saw the F-16s going to escort it...of course, at the time i didn't know what
180 MerlinIIIB: Given proper landing configuration (flap settings, trim etc), would it be feasible to ditch a 737 by the use of autopilot and autothrottle only, achie
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