Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Low Cost Operations In France  
User currently offlinePascalrex From France, joined Aug 2005, 3 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4328 times:

France has over the years wiped many bankruptcies in the commercial aviation sector. The most recents are those of Air littoral and Air Lib. This has left many passengers stranded and most importantly many employees jobless. The worth of this is that one gets the sensation that Air France is behind it all. And the French government in all this ? What is its role, is it really applying the open-sky policy as enforced by Brussels or does it make its own interpretation of the European law ?

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYULMRS From France, joined Mar 2005, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4304 times:

The French government made everything he can to maintain Air Lib, loaning them money (30 m €, correct me if I'm wrong) in order to protect Air France of Easyjet. We have to remember that Air France was about to be privatized at the moment (2002). (As long as Air Lib was in the air, Easyjet couldn't get ORY slots, a slot regulated airport).

Easyjet entered the French market on 4 lines (ORY-NCE, CDG-NCE, ORY-TLS, ORY-MRS), one of them was closed recently (ORY-MRS), the 2 slots are now used for 2 Italian lines.

Quoting Pascalrex (Thread starter):
France has over the years wiped many bankruptcies in the commercial aviation sector. The most recents are those of Air littoral and Air Lib.

A new startup would be very difficult to create in France, because of the lack of slots in ORY (the French passagers on short haul prefer ORY) and the lack on confidence the French banks have in airlines, due to the recent failures. (You forgot Aeris)

We have to remember that in fact the French market is highly competitive, but the competition is between the SNCF and Air France. Low prices are regularly introduced on the TGVs and if takes 3 hours from Paris to Marseille, downtown to downtown. A new TGV line will be finished in 2007, linking Paris to Strasbourg in 3 hours, some lines are in project including TGVs to Bordeaux, Nice, Toulouse and Brittany.

I Always thought Corsair could start lowcost operations operating B737. Corsair brand is strong in France, they have slots in Paris and they have the money to set up something, but they recently shown that they will continue their actual charter operations when they purchased United's 744.



To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

As posted several times in the past and discussed to death in French aviation forums, France is not like any other country when it comes to aviation and free "entrepreneurship".
The situation is highly complex and politicized - TGV is the big excuse everybody uses but once you try to travel from Nice to Nantes by TGV you spend a day and change in Paris...
Air France has been using moles within Air Liberté to sink the airline.
This person was then back in Air France service as A 340 pilot...
Air Littoral has been killed from within (its own director closed the company -for technical reasons as he stated -and he and the head of the Montpellier Chamber of Commerce are high-ranking Free-masons. Everything in French CCI's is linked to masonry...!! )
Cities like Montpellier, Perpignan, Lille or Toulon have very little air service except some Lowcost flights to the UK. It is true there are relatively few large cities in France compared to Germany or the Kubota pretending that all French only want to travel to Paris by TGV is a ridiculous assessment and denies the better part of French provinces decent and competitive air service abroad or within France.
I want to write a book about the rotten French aviation -sector but would most likely not find any publisher.... (If you think the Middle East is rotten come to France...)
I know it sounds overdone but this country has exported not only technology but also ways and policies to run counties in Africa through political studies given to African dictator's sons in their "ecoles d'elite».
Many of the African dictators have learned how to control a country and its resources in Paris and Strasbourg...
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was the big friend of one of Africa's most horrible dictator's - the "emperor» of Central Africa Edel Bokassa and received (proven) huge quantities of diamonds.
Mitterand had an active and extremely rotten Africa-department run and controlled indirectly by ELF (the French petrol group)
The list is long and not very pleasant. But this obviously leaves the aviation sector - well it's all related anyhow....



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
France is not like any other country when it comes to aviation and free "entrepreneurship".

I agree and that stinks. But it will change...

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
all French only want to travel to Paris by TGV is a ridiculous assessment and denies the better part of French provinces decent and competitive air service abroad or within France.

Could not agree more.

There is definitely room for improvement in that Country!!



Take off and live
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Beaucaire,

Many things you say are right, and yes, not so beautiful.
You are turning it a bit to a caricature, but basically, I think you're right.

However, where I don't agree, is when you say that France is particularly rotten and when you imply that corruption is much higher than in any other country.

I, for example, know a country, quite rich and famous, where the president uses the army as a private army to protect the interests of his friends in the oil business.
You know, money can really hurt a man's mind, and not only in your country.

About the African policies, again you're right, but unfortunately it seems to be more generalized than you think, and we have seen peace glorifier countries installing dictators in south American countries, that's not very new.

On the subject of the TGV, you can't say at the same time that AF is protected by the gvt and that the gvt uses his power to protect the TGV, hurting AF. Something is not working in that theory.
But for sure, when it comes to local politics, the things are complicated.

For example, Ryanair came in Strasbourg, for the happiness of local politics, but at the price of high subsidies. The gvt was not implied, it was the CCI.
Then AF protested, and they were right because it's illegal.
So Strasbourg was let alone without any big company except AF, and no TGV.
But now the TGV is built ... and will for sure hurt AF ...


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4181 times:

Sebolino -yes I do caricaturize France in a certain way - although I live here since nearly 10 years - but the fact that I live here and the government takes my taxes to spend on ridicoulous investments rather than improve the competetivness of the country, is making me angry...( and gives me a right to be critic !)
Speaking in this thread about the USA and the Bush Oil-clan is not approriate ,since the thread deals with France and the Lowcost airline envirenment.
Personally I belive the window of opportunity is closing in France for a french LCC ,since foreign carriers take away the most interesting links .
What I try to explain is the entagled relationship between banks-politicians-freemasonic lodges-Air France -SNCF....
In Germany,the UK ,Spain or Italy there are less constraints to get a business-plan approved in aviation than in France.
In those countries business is mainly business. Not in France.
-Since Banks are politically controlled in France ( even if people will try to tell you it's not true..),pressure on them not to invest in a competing company to Air France is there.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineYULMRS From France, joined Mar 2005, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
I know it sounds overdone but this country has exported not only technology but also ways and policies to run counties in Africa through political studies given to African dictator's sons in their "ecoles d'elite».
Many of the African dictators have learned how to control a country and its resources in Paris and Strasbourg...
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was the big friend of one of Africa's most horrible dictator's - the "emperor» of Central Africa Edel Bokassa and received (proven) huge quantities of diamonds.



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
The list is long and not very pleasant. But this obviously leaves the aviation sector - well it's all related anyhow....

Can anyone explain me the link between the lack of French lowcost companies and the African discators ... I feel a bit stupid not to understand ...  Wink

The TGV allows to serve much smaller lines, such as Paris - Valence, Paris - Aix en Provence or Paris - Le Creusot ... We are not in the US where the distances are long and the trains bad ...

We all know that the market hates emptiness ... Where these a market it will be filled ... so there's no "province to province" market, and it's a shame, but nobody wants to fly it.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
Cities like Montpellier, Perpignan, Lille or Toulon have very little air service except some Lowcost flights to the UK.

Most of these cities are too close to larger airports (Lille is an hour by TGV to CDG or BRU, Toulon and Montpellier are 1 hour by car to MRS ... and MPL isn't that small).



To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4144 times:

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 6):
Can anyone explain me the link between the lack of French lowcost companies and the African discators ... I feel a bit stupid not to understand ...

Reading your profile I understand you are student -well once you start understanding how french economic-politics work,(graisser les pattes..or bribery ) you will see the connection between normally unrelated matters or situations.
Things that don't work in France ,usually have one common reason : politicians !
They have either to approve plans,implement procedures or "facilitate" new laws,allowing companies to operate.The matter goes largely beyond Lowcost airlines- so I stop it there....



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineYulmrs From France, joined Mar 2005, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
Reading your profile I understand you are student -well once you start understanding how french economic-politics work,(graisser les pattes..or bribery ) you will see the connection between normally unrelated matters or situations.



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
Reading your profile I understand you are student

Don't take it personnal man ...  Wink And please ... don't be scorning with me because i'm a student ...

What i just try to say is that there's no room for another carrier ... The SNCF and Air France are too big. And there's not any link between Bokassa and the lack of french LLCs ...



To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
User currently offlineGLA MD11 From France, joined Mar 2000, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4101 times:

Why does every thread about France turn like this?

The French situation is more complicated than that:

- I would say the TGV, rail and road systems, as well as the relative small size of the country play important roles in the French airline business (or lack thereof).

- AF has long operated in a non-competitive environment and enjoys this "insider position" ever since. Competition is possible in France but private operators suffer from the importance that the former public monopoly holder holds. It is never easy to enter a single operator market, no matter where you are in the world.

- Centralization also plays a large role: in France, everything was created around Paris and this includes both the rail and the air system. TGVs are almost always starting or ending their course in Paris and CDG / ORY are the unchallenged center of our air traffic.

Now, things start to change: decentralization is now almost 25 years old and there is now a market for "province to province" traffic. For that purpose, it is easier to open flights than to build a TGV line. Now, the question is: is the demand strong enough for profitability? I would say not yet but in the future, it will definitely come.

- I would also say people are less in demand for low cost air traffic here than they are in the US or in England. People who want to travel cheap just take their cars (you can cross the country in less than 12 hours). Night trains are also working well among students.

- People are generally afraid of LCC that they have trouble differentiating from the charter business. My mom was so afraid when I told her I was flying Ryanair ("are the planes safe?" bla bla bla). Unions are also generally against (they refused a plan making from Air Lib a LCC back in the days before they went belly up).

I certainly forget other factors.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

It's not because I am critic against french politics that I don't like to live in France - the country is among the most beautiful counties I have lived in and I feel very well where I am .
True that things are changing in France but too slowly and not neccessarily in the right direction.
Regardless of that,Air France is a well managed airline,the SNCF trains run basically on time ( would be nice to have a decent food-service though..)and highways are expensive but extremely well maintained.
There is room for region-to-region lowcost air-services - specially from the southern territories to the extreme west and east.Even places like Perpignan ,Toulon or Nîmes would sustain airlinks to Orly or CDG- but if Easyjet does not get the slots who else would be getting them...
Ryanair is not interested in french-domestic trafic unlike in Italy,Germany or Spain.Also the average french province-person does travel less frequently than the average brit or german abroad.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

A 60-Million persons country with population centers in 3 main spots, and then dissseminated around it, supposedly with a western-level GNP and available income from clients for their domestic travel, with a single dominant player on a market... can't help but think something's rotten in the Kingdom!

This being said, GLA presented a fair set of facts. And hinted that things may change. I share that opinion.

However, I also think that the French habit of "protecting the national industry" and defensiveness towards economic change explains why AF "enjoys" still to this day that quasi-monopoly. And the demise of AirLib & Air Littoral are imho not chance. And not only related to market or Management.

Inertia, social, political, economical....

Result: folks in the Province in France have a choice between the AF fare and the SNCF fare.

Wonderful



Take off and live
User currently offlinePascalrex From France, joined Aug 2005, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

In reply to you all, I asked the question simply because in 2002 I had planned to launch a low cost operation based in south of france and no using any AF routes. All airports concerned were enthousiatic about it all. I ahd raised the funds and had political back up (wich is strongly recommended in this country) and when I applied for the licence the authorities told me that they could not grant a licence as we could become at term competitors to AF unless I signed a document attesting that I would never come in competition with that airline. Thing that I surely did not do as I believe that it was disloyal business ! I approched Mme de Panafieu who was furious but could not do much... One member of the comission explained that in the words Air France, there is the word FRANCE, wich automaticaly implies the protection de the gvt !
Another project was then launched by 2 other personns namely: Flyeco, and Ocean airways. None have yet managed to get off the ground.
Studies hav shown that there is a market for transversal lines not deserved by the train or other operators. The objectif of real low cost operation is to use secondary airports (no slots or rarely and cheaper stop over). Last month a new low cost operation began in Reims - that airline uses ATR for the 3/4 lines it operates.


User currently offlineTGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
It is true there are relatively few large cities in France compared to Germany or the Kubota pretending that all French only want to travel to Paris by TGV is a ridiculous assessment and denies the better part of French provinces decent and competitive air service abroad or within France.

First of all a question to you Beaucaire: you say you have been living in France for 10 years, but obviously you hate France, as in most of your posts your are criticising this country (and I noted this long before this post).

Some of this critics are deserved, but not all, or not with the level of criticism you usually express. And so my question is: "if it is so terrible in France, why are you still living there? I assume you are from another country, why not go back where all is better ?".

And then, a factual answer on what you wrote: the development of the TGV Network has enabled the creation of direct TGV from province to province, without changing train/station in Paris.
For example between Lille and Marseille you have 7 daily direct TGV, plus one night train. So saying all traffic goes to Paris is quite exaggerated.

This "Intersecteurs" trafic has shown a very good growth in the past years, but not very high yields, as it is mainly leisure trafic.

So it may not be easy for airlines to sustain regular services on such OD pairs.

The advantage of the TGV is that it can stop en-route to have better load factors, at a cost of some additional minutes per stop (the Lille service will stop in CDG, Marne la Vallée, Lyon, Valence, Avignon), which obviously a plane can not do.



Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3999 times:

Dear TGV -
I am part of those foreigners that support the french budget by paying substantial amounts of taxes into the french "Ministére de Finances" account.
You are mixing up critic and hate (sometimes my critic is harsh and sharp but usually based on facts that I can substatiate ). I don't hate France but-as previously indicated- the way some things are managed.
Secondly this is an aviation forum -so I don't have to justify the beauty and performance of the french rail system but we are discussing the wherabouts of french Low-cost aviation. If I would have liked to praise the TGV I would have switched to a rail-forum....
I have not left France because I have a house in an area I love ( Provence ) and I obviously love the people here as well- so why should I leave?
Comming back to aviation -the list of defunct airlines in France is as long as the list of types of cheese you produce...
I happen to know the director of an airport not to far from where I live and he is beeing confronted with a certain amount of Business-plans from start-up airlines.I had an oportunity to read two of them - both put in the very first section their willingness not to compete with Air France and even hired Air France staff to participate in the edition of the document .
This stinks so much that is requires a gas-mask!!!!
France is biased by Air France and SNCF to create a look-out for competition -thats' all.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

Beaucaire, though what you say is partly true, a good part is also pure crap...
why do you feel necessary to ridicule France with stories linked to Bokassa, the training of African elite and Franc-maçonnerie or other stupidities?
The Netherlands and UK engendered monsters in the ex-colonies too so it's definitely not a French feature...for the intrigues at state level, you're entirely right but then again I think it's quite widespread in a lot of countries, Brussels being the newest Babylon for that matter...oh yeah, they speak French in BRU that's why  Yeah sure

to be serious, I believe some transversal links can exist in France especially if using ATR or EMB planes

about the number 2 french carrier ,Easyjet, I am quite puzzled : I signed, like thousand others, a petition in favor of EZY when AF merged with KL
EZY explained at the time that monopoly blabla sh*t from AF/KL would hurt us and the only way would be for them to get slots on CDG-AMS to counter the new rhino-sized airline.

result?? nothing!!
indeed the price of a CDG-AMS-CDG went up to 180€ minimum instead of 120€ two years ago but in the meantime EZY has totally abandonned the idea of the route

what is the use of crying to the wolf all the time if you do nothing against the beast?



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 14):
Dear TGV -
I am part of those foreigners that support the french budget by paying substantial amounts of taxes into the french "Minist�re de Finances" account.

Actually, I have to agree with TGV: nothing forces you to pay taxes in France, and it was obviously your choice.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

The Easyjet fleet (mainly A 319) are perfect for strong routes like Orly-Geneva ,Geneva-Barcelona or Nice-Orly- but thinner routes like Marseille-Nantes or Montpellier-Lille would not yield enough for the fleet-structure of Easyjet.
I agree that most trans-province routes within France would call rather for Embraer 145 or ATR 72 than A 319 gear.
But viable plans like Flyeco who were targeting Nîmes-Beauvais,Nîmes-Charleroi or Toulon-Paris were not able to get the neccessary political backing.
The list of destinations Flyeco had in mind is as follows:

Biarritz > Bruxelles-Charleroi
Biarritz > Francfort-Hahn
Biarritz > Paris-Beauvais
Brest > Paris-Beauvais
Bruxelles-Charleroi > Biarritz
Bruxelles-Charleroi > Nîmes
Bruxelles-Charleroi > Perpignan
Bruxelles-Charleroi > Toulon
Francfort-Hahn > Biarritz
Francfort-Hahn > Paris-Beauvais
Francfort-Hahn > Toulon
Nîmes > Bruxelles-Charleroi Nîmes Paris-Beauvais
Paris-Beauvais > Biarritz
Paris-Beauvais > Brest
Paris-Beauvais > Francfort-Hahn
Paris-Beauvais > Nîmes
Paris-Beauvais Perpignan
Paris-Beauvais Toulon
Perpignan > Bruxelles-Charleroi
Perpignan > Paris-Beauvais
Toulon > Bruxelles-Charleroi
Toulon > Francfort-Hahn
Toulon > Paris-Beauvais

It was a great plan but failed -unfortunately.

Easyjet is currently in a stragne situation anyhow,since previously anounced hubs in Germany never materialized - it might have to do with some people in Reykjavik? France is defenitely a key maket for them but the Orly-slot allocation machine does not help to grow the way they anticipate ( closure of Marseille-Orly !)



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineTGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Dear Beaucaire,

Of courses taxes are high in France. And a part o these taxes could be best used, no discussion. Nevertheless a lot of things paid by taxes are working in France, so in some cases I prefer to pay taxes than have nothing.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 14):
Secondly this is an aviation forum -so I don't have to justify the beauty and performance of the french rail system but we are discussing the wherabouts of french Low-cost aviation.

If I entered the discussion a and wrote about the TGV it's because of these sentences in your post.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
TGV is the big excuse everybody uses but once you try to travel from Nice to Nantes by TGV you spend a day and change in Paris...
....
or the Kubota pretending that all French only want to travel to Paris by TGV is a ridiculous assessment and denies the better part of French provinces decent and competitive air service abroad or within France.

As stated by other posters, the TGV is a real competition for domestic airlines, whether they are low cost or AF. So introducing it in a discussion about the difficulties of low costs in France seems logical.

I don't know your country of origin, but obviously the plane is integrated in your way of thinking when you plan to travel. For a great part of the French population, it is the train that is part of their normal thinking.

And as the TGV offers quite competitive travel times and fares (globally, including access and egress to the stations), as well as an acceptable level of quality (trains are more on-time than planes), why would people jump in planes, and leave trains ?

Yes, some routes are not competitive time-wise in TGV (and you correctly mention Nice to Nantes). But what is the demand on such routes ?
If you look at the actual TGV network you will see you have direct TGV (without changing in Paris) on most OD pairs with a significant level of traffic, hence the difficulty for a low cost airline to enter the market.



Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Why are we exclusively focussed on french-domestic trafic (where the TGV is of course a viable and excellent tool..) and don't mention european trafic ,which represents about 75 % of all european Lowcost Business.
TGV is no alternative for a Beauvais-Madrid,Nantes-Barcelona or a Lille-Napoli
Basically all European LCC's target and create new passenger-business by offering previously unavailable services.( Offer creates the demand..)
Typical example are Polish-Lowcosts linking western-european cities to Poland -previously people spend 12 hours in a bus which cost them more than a comparable lowcost ticket.
Trains are excellent but obviously not on long trips abroad- so why denying the market access for people who want to set up Flyeco type companies???
Pascalrex has given a striking example of how things work in France in the aviation sector.
By the way if I chose to pay taxes in France it is my dam right to try to improve things- your comment suggest's that people who complain just have to leave the country - this is precisely what many investors do these days....
You would be surprised to learn about the number of entrepreneurs selling their property and go abroad.Not because they hate France....not even because of the taxes - but they are having extreme difficulties running a business here.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4634 posts, RR: 77
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3925 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
Air France has been using moles within Air Liberté to sink the airline.
This person was then back in Air France service as A 340 pilot...

Please tell us all. That sounds kinky !

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
If you think the Middle East is rotten come to France...)

Why...I suggest you go to that paradise, you'll be living with the angels.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was the big friend of one of Africa's most horrible dictator's - the "emperor» of Central Africa Edel Bokassa and received (proven) huge quantities of diamonds.

Was that friendship at the level of Thatcher's-Pinochet's ? And btw, if you want to spread rumors, the name was "Jean Bedel".
You also forgot Idi Amin Dada, Mobutu Sese Seko, Taylor, Mugabe, all of them trained in France, along with Videla and so many others I forget them all.(The instructors came from the KKK and the Haitian tontons Macoutes)
You seem to have forgotten the CIA, along with the Mossad and the MI5, and remember, Elvis Presley has a few followers in the Australian outback .I heard that through the Moon sect, he is controlling Airbus and the french nuclear industry.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
What I try to explain is the entagled relationship between banks-politicians-freemasonic lodges-Air France -SNCF....

I'm waiting with baited breath some juiiiiiiiiiiiiiicy revelations, not only hate-related rants.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
Personally I believe the window of opportunity is closing in France for a french LCC ,since foreign carriers take away the most interesting links .

Why do you care as long as you have the link you wanted ?

I am glad quite a few have seen your posts as what they are : Manure.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

Beaucaire has a point, just one  Wink
lines that look exotic in the 1st place turn out to be money machine for some operators
example: Ryanair in Biarritz linking London daily
local people in Biarritz didn't believe in it but Englanders are packing the 737 to the last seat.
the line is a success, and I am sure a Biarritz-Frankfurt would be the same
amongst many many others....

because we have the TGV, it doesn't mean we can't develop the rest....
remember the mistake France did with internet at the begining: because we had Minitel, internet was seen as superfluous and bringing nothing new....



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3904 times:

This thread is starting to look funny

Humm.. I wish there was some equivalent to France geography- and population- and sociology- wise, so that comparisons of air travel would be possible.

Amazing, however, the reaction of French people when facts bearing potential for improvement are presented. And I came to realize that when I left the Country, I have to admit.

Take it easy guys, Beaucaire is telling you his experiences and feelings with a different point of view, why flame him?? He is an aviation enthusiast like you!

Cheers,

P



Take off and live
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

cher Frequentflyer, did you move to Southern California or something?? or are you becoming anglo saxon all of a sudden??  highfive 

I am more with Pihero on that one about flaming Beaucaire....what he wrote was not really accurate and didn't intend to be I guess. I even can sense some Fox news style in Beaucaire, but anyway I am happy that French electronuclear capacities are in the hand of Franc-maçons and moon sects, that's quite reassuring  rotfl 

by the way Beaucaire, you didn't want to name him but I suppose you mean to say Corbet is back as an AF A340 pilot after he sucked all the money out of Airlib?
if so I guess he's the one who broke his neck at YYZ...  yuck 



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4634 posts, RR: 77
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3873 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 22):
This thread is starting to look funny

Sorry, FF, it was funny right from the beginning, and for his very first post, the thread starter must have set some sort of a record.

Suggestion : Let him publish or submit to the few A.netters here who have finance and business background his plan and I for one would accept their conclusions. Until then, it's worthy of the shit one finds in the french radiococo, conspiracy theories included.
As a french citizen, I'm beginning to get mad at people who just whine, whinge and rant without ever volunteering a solution.Especially those who're taking full advantage of the french social security scheme (which is just about where this country is losing the most money), the subsidies paid to the french railways (If AF had them, they'd had ordered 300 A320s and Ryanair would be history)...(List can go on...)
In fact the reason that could explain why LCC could not establish in France is the French tax system and the labour laws. If you'd lived in France, you would know that an employee in France costs nearly twice as she/he would outside because of the social protection system (an employer pays 2/3 of the employee's pension ,medical care, .........) plus a tax system that's higher than about any other country in the EU.

And I just wanted to talk about aviation !



Contrail designer
25 Post contains images Frequentflyer : Hey Varig: Well I might be a mix of Anglo-Saxon and French by now you are right I know what Beaucaire mentioned might not be from the London Times, ho
26 Frequentflyer : Hey Pierrot, for once we'll chat in the civil aviation forum and not in the tech ops one! The funny thing is, I do agree with 100% of what you say. Bu
27 Varig md-11 : salut Frequentflyer I agree with you fully on the fact that AF needs competition and I am an AF lover too, the one is not going against the other on t
28 Vfw614 : High speed trains are a serious competitor in countries with an effective and affordable railway system. Look at the situation Germany - routes like C
29 Frequentflyer : You lucky you Varig! NCE is one of my preferred approaches ; choose a window seat on the left-hand side of the aircraft, and peek when you fly by the
30 YULMRS : When AF has a strong competition on a line (this one is France's most competitive one) their price is good. But they are generally a bit more expensi
31 Jouy31 : I agree with most of your comments, but PAR-LYS is still operated by AF, there are around 10 flights per day, each way.
32 Beaucaire : SNCF offer since several months special "Internet" fares ( only bookable on the web..) at extremely competetive rates. While "Reseau Ferré de France"
33 TGV : To summarize, the fact that the taxpayer has financed high speed lines enables: the passengers to have a rail service equivalent or superior to the a
34 Sebolino : Uh ? AFAIK, public money goes also in the airports ... Being local or national. You are more and more caricaturing ... Agreed. We can really feel it
35 Beaucaire : TGV- it seems you do read exclusively negatives in my posts - well I just mentioned for non-french readers of this forum the facts without critic what
36 Post contains links YULMRS : Sorry, I thought they were taking passengers by TGV. 11 dailies http://www.airfrance.fr/cgi-bin/AF/F...nfovol/horaires/tableauHoraires.do Watching th
37 JoFMO : AF operates some shorter flights. But they are all feeder flights to their hubs. When you look carefully through AF's printed timetable, you find out
38 Post contains images TGV : Could it be because, even when giving facts, you generally state something (sometimes very subtly) critic, or even completely wrong like the fact tha
39 Varig md-11 : it's not that we have something against you Beaucaire but it is as if you do it on purpose to introduce false information in your statements... SINCE
40 Post contains links and images Beaucaire : TGV-Best regards from Nîmes airport then - taken several days ago when the Ryanair-Dreamliner had a nervous breakdown and a replacement plane had to
41 Rom1 : Hi Beaucaire, Very nice picture!! Was it on August the 3rd? Because i was in Garons that day about 1.00 pm and saw exactly the same situation, the Dre
42 Beaucaire : EI-DCZ - I happen to have a picture of the Luton plane from that same day...
43 Icarus75 : One thing is sure : without competition in the air, it is more and more difficult to find low fares in the french skies. Let me give you one example.
44 Jouy31 : How much are the taxes ?
45 YULMRS : Today oil is at 65-66 $ ...
46 Frequentflyer : Somebody has an idea on what the % of tax is, in France, for jet fuel?
47 Joost : What is your source for this? What routes will this be? And: how will they materialize this? Will there be railway enhancements or train enhancements
48 GLA MD11 : As much as I respect you as an aviation specialist, you're out of your domain here! The speed increase to 350 is planned for the entire TGV network.
49 Frequentflyer : Thanks GLA for an informed post. I had actually forgotten the advantage of TGV over planes: their fuel. Good point!
50 Sebolino : Actually, that's the point of a hub, and it would be stupid from AF not to do so.
51 Eha : To recall a point raised by Beaucaire : the mafia between banks-public institutions-masonic lodges-politicians... Per se, there is no reason to have t
52 Post contains images Joost : Apparently too long out Reading your post many things come back from some distant memory, when I was interested more in this than in planes Mmmm I re
53 Post contains images GLA MD11 : For sure, the Paris CDG, Avignon TGV, Macon TGV and Aix-en-Provence TGV are built on that model. I am not sure for the others. Can't remember on top
54 Teahan : GLA MD11: The 350 km/h speed is one of those oft talked about projects with little evidence of it happening anytime soon. There is a big difference be
55 GLA MD11 : My mistake! I messed up the 320 - 350 difference. Teahan, I agree with most of what you said but I have two precisions: - the oldest TGV have all been
56 Teahan : No there is still a fleet of 270km/h TGV PSE. These are usually used on Paris -Bourgogne / Paris - Franche-Comté. (and of course the La Poste TGVs -
57 TGV : To Joost and GLA MD11. Some complements/changes in what you have written, for the sake of railway accurateness. 1) Maximum speed of TGV on high speed
58 Aither : Before accusing french etc. just do a little route planning ! The fact is even regional airlines almost never made money. Wealth and population is hea
59 Frequentflyer : and only monopolies. I am always amazed how French people accept monopolies, forget that competition is an interesting concept, lowering prices and b
60 Teahan : Would you care to quote some non transport examples?
61 Frequentflyer : Hi J I unfortunately can... Healthcare (insurance) Retirement Electricity Gas (Natural and others) Docking (the guys who work to disembark goods from
62 Eha : Rather off-topic but here we go: Healthcare insurance ? expenses are re-imbursed by social security and you are free to select additional healthcare
63 GLA MD11 : Sorry FF but you need to get a better info here: Healthcare and Retirement: only the bare minimum of insurance is state-controlled. For complementary
64 Joost : Easyjet operates 4 daily flights ORY-TLS. Aren't it also the unions who are trying to slow down the possible entrance of competition in this field? I
65 Post contains images Frequentflyer : I knew this would stir the pot with our French friends... I swear I dod not do it on purpose (nearly) For all examples given, and to all responses ki
66 YULMRS : Electricity : The distribution is already opened for all professional customers (I think was opened in 2004) Train transportation : Already opened fo
67 Eha : I'd rather say that you've been away from France too long and some of your examples were wrong. Your statement about monopoly is probably globally wr
68 Post contains images Frequentflyer : That I knew for Sure... You bet, I am right there! But the most important thing is, let the French be happy in their country, with an organization of
69 Post contains images Eha : I am delighted with my job, my family, the place I live, but our govt sucks big time, french mentality of always complaining but never wanting to cha
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
FlyEco To Start Low-cost Operations In June posted Thu Mar 6 2003 10:02:55 by Brusselssouth
Low-cost Airlines In France posted Thu Oct 24 2002 14:41:17 by AFa340-300E
Setting Up A Low Cost Airline In NZ posted Thu Jun 15 2006 09:57:19 by Planemanofnz
Sama The New Low Cost Airline In Saudi Arabia posted Fri Apr 7 2006 16:44:50 by Rwy31R
Condor To Open Low Cost Entity In Munich posted Wed Jan 11 2006 10:34:42 by Beaucaire
Low Cost Carriers In Europe. posted Sun Jan 8 2006 08:26:37 by HPA320
Why So Little Low-cost Flying In Japan? posted Sun Nov 13 2005 10:45:29 by Airevents
Low Cost Airlines In NE Asia, Flying International posted Mon Oct 10 2005 10:10:08 by Manni
Low-cost Carriers In Central America posted Fri Jul 29 2005 10:00:05 by 4xRuv
Congrats EasyJet, Largest Low Cost Fleet In Europe posted Fri Apr 15 2005 00:46:40 by Squirrel83