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Why Do Pax Airplanes Have Windows?  
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12448 times:

Well, obviously they have always had windows and its nice for the pax to look outside etc. etc.

But looking at this picture of an AN74TK, the question is not as outlandish as one would think as such aircraft exist:


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I was wondering how much complexity, costs, maintenance and risks windows add to constructing and operating an airliner.

We have seen airlines like Ryanair reducing complexity of the cabin and comfort more and more by doing away with windows blinds, reclining seat, seat pockets etc. etc. Not expecting that it would ever happen, but would ordering a pax aircraft without windows be a significant cost saving for an airline that more or less sees its pax as self-loading cattle ?

[Edited 2005-08-19 20:30:49]

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12426 times:

Windows help fight air sickness.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12424 times:

i would not fly on a aircraft that did not have windows...shades,no recline and seat pockets are ok but have to have a window to look out. im sure fedex and ups would start up a operation if they thought that there was a demand for windowless flights


bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12402 times:

Quoting Vfw614 (Thread starter):
Not expecting that it would ever happen, but would ordering a pax aircraft without windows be a significant cost saving for an airline that more or less sees its pax as self-loading cattle ?

PLEASE, dont put such comments like that on here. You never know, MOL might be reading this right now, and calling Boeing to ask, how much 100 B738 costs without windows.

 rotfl 

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12387 times:

It seems very claustrophobic without windows.... I think passengers would be much more agitated without windows. Also... I think safety would be compromised in the event of a catastrophic power failure/crash... no way to see and/or assess what's going on outside.


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineSmcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12372 times:

If I don't look out the window for a while on a flight I'm on, I start getting disoriented and queasy. All I have to do is look out the window to get my bearings... it could feel like we're dropping quickly or climbing..... look out the window and we're perfectly level... I'm sure I'm not the only one with that problem. It is also a good way to get kids to know geography by giving them a map and showing them the two cities your flying between...


Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
User currently offline102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12324 times:

I thought it was a safety issue. I thought the FA’s use the windows to observe what is going on, around the proximity of the aircraft during push-back from the gate. I remember hearing FA’s tell other pax to raise their window covers while the plane is pushing-back from the gate and once the plane was in the air then they could cover their windows.

User currently offlineFlydubai From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12281 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
Windows help fight air sickness.

Windows cause air sickness.  scared 

Hamzah


User currently offlineDesertwolf98 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12272 times:

america airlines should consider this and any other carrier that operates their airframe fleet like cattle. Isn't the airbus 380 capable of having 500 passengers? I forgot the number, but I remember it was high.

Give me a B737 or a A319 anyday :P I like the planes smaller in seating arrangements!


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12265 times:

Well, you could always have windows next to the F/A seats, at emergency exists etc.

As for the safety issue, most military transports are windowless and the military usually cares a lot about safety issues. I am sure they would not want soldiers staggering off the aircraft totally airsick because of a lack of windows.


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[Edited 2005-08-19 20:55:49]

User currently offlineKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12247 times:

How would I be able to let fresh air in if I didn't have a window to roll down?

I know flight attendants are trained to assess outside conditions prior to evacuating a plane. The windows would certainly help in this situation.

I'm sure it's cheaper to not install windows, but I'm sure they are there for the same reasons subways have windows.


User currently offlineLongbowPilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 577 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12198 times:
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Oh for crying out loud, It is so you can see the demons crawling on the wings. There was a short documentary about it on a show once. It starred John Lithgow. He was showing how passengers get uptite when they see things crawling on the wings of the aircraft and start tearing the engines apart in mid flight.

 Wink


User currently offlineEddieho From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 229 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12195 times:

I think its very important in event of the crash

I was on board AF358 and it was COMPLETELY DARK INSIDE. The emegency lights on the aisles didnt even go on. The only light that came in came from the windows... probably the windows saved our lives!

But looking at it closely some windows in business class were not lifted.


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12169 times:

And the magic word is...claustrophobia.

Many people don't like the idea of being confined in a tube with no idea of what's happening outside. Same reason many people dislike travelling on underground trains.


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12074 times:

Well, this all is true of course and I don't expect an explanation exactly as to "why" (maybe I should have phrased the title differently) .

I was wondering whether leaving windows would be such a major cost saver that someone would give the idea a second thought.

Ryanair's CEO MOL said a while ago that sometime in the future he would like to give away as many seats as possible for free by just making money from ancillary revenues, subsidies etc. So, if you get a seat for free, you might not be inclined to complain about a lack of windows - as much as your are not supposed to complain about a lack of recline, seat pockets, window blinds, food, newspapers, drinks nowadays because you only pay a few quid - and you can have it all by forking out more money and buying a ticket on a legacy carrier (well, if you are lucky...).

See above - it remains a fact that military transport aircraft do not have windows and the lack of outside orientation etc. does not seem to be a major concern (as for the safety issue, remember that some military aircraft even have rearward facing seats because these are much safer).


User currently offlineGEnx From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12035 times:

Seems to me, the trend is moving the other way towards bigger windows instead of no windows. Those are some beautiful looking windows on the B787 mockups. Should be a great view.


Because getting there IS part of the fun!
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11957 times:

Military aircraft do not have windows, because the primary mission is cargo. When the US DoD needs to move troops , they also charter airliners from the civilian fleets.

Would anyone ride a bus or train without windows? Probably not.



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11927 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 16):
When the US DoD needs to move troops , they also charter airliners from the civilian fleets.

Yes, but I doubt it has something to do with the lack of windows on their own aircraft.....


User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1645 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11878 times:
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Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 16):
Military aircraft do not have windows, because the primary mission is cargo. When the US DoD needs to move troops , they also charter airliners from the civilian fleets.

Almost all Air Force cargo airplanes can and do carry passengers. I have flown as a passenger numerous times on a military cargo airplane, the Boeing C-97 Stratocrusier which my unit operated, and the only windows were in the emergency exits. I can tell you it fells weird, especially during approach and landing waiting for the airplane to touch down. At night even if you could see out of a distant emergency exit window you could not tell when the airplane was going to touch down on the runway.

Almost all military airplane passenger seats face aft for safety and the other weird feeling is sitting backwards. The C-97 with passenger seats could seat about 66 people in a 2+2 seating configuration. The C-97 had a lavatory and a galley with a refrigerator and oven for the passengers and crew. Even the C-5 carried passengers on the upper deck as well

The USAF VC-135’s that were used for VIP service, not the 707’s were just KC-135’s with the air refueling equipment removed and had a passenger interior, but they also had no windows except for the emergency exits and were known as “the tubes”. Because of this they were not very popular with the passengers.


User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11793 times:

Why do planes have windows?

Because people like to see outside. No better reason than that. Surely this question was not serious.



An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11743 times:

This Bristol 170 was able to carry up to 14 pax in addition to three cars. My understanding is that the pax compartment was in the rear and as it looks on this picture, the outside views from there were somewhat limited. Anyone every been inside a Bristol 170 ?


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User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3770 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11706 times:

Quoting Flydubai (Reply 7):
Windows cause air sickness.

You would be the exception that proves the rule then. Having something steady to focus on, say a cloud or the horizon or something, greatly reduces dizziness and nausea. Believe me. Haven't gotten airsick in a window seat in 11 years...

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineGrimey From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11602 times:

I met a German bloke before who had a friend who was in North Korea, when the plane was landing in N. Korea all the pax had to put down their window shutters so they couldn't see outside, I don't know if this is fully true but I found it hard to believe.

Eddieho, you are the only one I know that was on that flight and you should count yourself very lucky.

Very good LongbowPilot, I haven't heard any stories of things on wings in years.

Grimey


User currently offlineLongbowPilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 577 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11574 times:
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Grimey,

It was The Twilight Zone the movie. I was attempting to be phesicious, guess i face planted.


User currently offlineHorizonGirl From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 807 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11543 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 3):
PLEASE, dont put such comments like that on here. You never know, MOL might be reading this right now, and calling Boeing to ask, how much 100 B738 costs without windows.



Drew

I DEFINITELY second that!  Wow!
No windows..........
Well then, how do you wach the flaps?


Devon  Smile



Flying high on the Wings of the Great Northwest!
25 LegendDC9 : Instead of a windowless aircraft, how about a clear aircraft? Instead of aluminum use lexan or something clear and durable and build the fuselage and
26 Post contains images BCAL : During my childhood I flew in the Bristol 170s of Silver City Airways between Lydd and LeTouguet (spelling?) in France and can remember that there we
27 IRelayer : I might be missing something here. Why is this safer? I don't know if it is true either (never been, probably will never go), but I wouldn't put it p
28 Vfw614 : Because you can sustain the impact forces much better if you are pressed into the back of your seat instead of being held back just by a seatbelt aro
29 Tatfsn : A windowless commercial airliner would be a nonstarter. I doubt that any carrier (even Ryanair) would ever seriously consider it. Few, if any of the f
30 Espion007 : Yea the thing is if you feel as if your moving but have nothing to relate to in a space its very easy to get dis-oriented. If you go to the very top
31 Liedetectors : Military planes do not have windows because there is less stress on the airframe then on ones with windows. dont forget that each window puts in the p
32 PIA777 : People like my wife would never get on the plane without windows. She is a bit clausterphobic. PIA777
33 Abbs380 : Yeah, lets take this to the extreme. Why do we even need cockpit windows? Just put a few video cameras all over the a/c and let the crew watch TV scre
34 Post contains images SkyHigh777 : It's simple...the PAX planes have windows so that on long haul daylight flights if you are seated in a window seat you can annoy everyone else by leav
35 Mark_D. : Eddieho-- I was on board AF358... Glad you made it out! About the thread question though, yeah I guess it's just a major psychologically-reassuring an
36 CVG2LGA : because they are the original IFE. all the rest is OVER RATED! Tchau DA-
37 9V-SVC : What do you mean by the rest is overrated ? Please explain . :roll:
38 Midex461 : John Lithgow?!! I thought it starred William Shatner. But seriously, I agree. The windows help combat the closed in feeling, and it does help parents
39 Lehpron : Airplanes that carry people and have windows are a given thesedays. It would be nice from an engineering perspective to not have them, windows are a
40 Trekster : No chance in hell would you get me on a windowless plane. I dont like turbulance, or even the turnsd after take off, my head jsut goes really funny an
41 Legacy135 : I never have seen any rule how many windows a plane needs to have in relation with the PAX seats. But I am quite sure, something like this exists, it
42 Vikkyvik : As a crash survivor, I will second Eddieho in this sentiment. I was on Indian Airlines flight IC605 that crashed short of the runway in Bangalore in
43 StealthZ : On the contrary... The Australian Army spent a considerable amount of money and effort developing Long Distance Personnel carriers(Ground Transport)
44 Post contains images Eaglekeeper101 : Greetings to all... I have "enjoyed" many long flights on C-5s, KC-10s, C-130s, and KC-135s, going to and from TDYs and deployments. Having few or no
45 ChrisNH : I think it's so people won't get motion-sickness. If you're in a boat at sea, and it's foggy and you can't see land (i.e. a fixed reference point), yo
46 HAWK21M : Wouldn't anyone want to look outside. regds MEL
47 Post contains images Fabio777 : Why do we have windows in our houses/apartments? It sure would make for stronger structures and be more energy efficient in winter if we didn't. It's
48 Brokenrecord : As a very frequent flyer, even I got a little queasy during our approach and landing at AUD in a C17. It really sucks not knowing where an aircraft of
49 Smcmac32msn : Same reason that baby seats are put in cars backwards. The head has something to rest against so during impact with something the baby (or airline pa
50 Liedetectors : Hello This is a fair statement. But if you compare the money spent on fuselage maintainence on a 707 and compare it to the KC135, you will see there
51 Post contains images Vfw614 : OK, thanks for your input so far - you don't have to convince me that it is more comfortable, passengers ecpect and all the rage I was just curious ho
52 Eilennaei : There's a major mode of transport that's being used by thousands and thousands of people every day that has got very little in the way of windows: the
53 Post contains images Eaglekeeper101 : Greetings... One must also consider how many of each airframe are currently being serviced. As I am sure you are aware, there are far more KC-135 air
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