Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4359 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3479 times:
Well, we have LTU after all and they pretend to be a scheduled long-haul carrier serving destinations in Asia, Africa, North and Latin America.
Served profitably from where - that is the question ?? Germany is, in contrast to other countries that are or have been able to support two or more long-haul carriers (e.g. France: AF und UTA, UK: BA and Virgin), too decentralised.
The reason why Virgin can survive wothout a hub and spoke system is because LON itself is such a big market.
no i didn´t, the problem with ltu is that they still serve mainly leisure destinations, the other long haul flights they operate are not daily, just 2 to 3 flights per week (JFK mor frequently of corse) and not year around destinations. I would compare LTU not with Virgin more with a British Leisure Carrier.
ACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7779 posts, RR: 33
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3446 times:
Quoting 123 (Reply 1): LTU is a well known airline in Germany and is recognized for its high service levels, modern fleet and attractive destinations.
Sorry, but did you just use LTU and high service levels in the same sentence?
LH seems to have Germany pretty well covered though, 2 major hubs in FRA and MUC. I could imagine that it would be very difficult for a new carrier to start up. BTW, what ever became of the one airline that wanted to start low fare trans-atlantic service from CGN a few years back?
Legacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3439 times:
Quoting Avianca (Reply 5): maybe 15 years ago, today Germany is the centralisedest country of Europe.
This is correct. For us here in Switzerland, the hubs in FRA and MUC are very often the best gateways to the world, since LX has shrinked down it's worldwide network significantly compared with the former SR network.
As LH now bought LX, this may become in a way like a "second" German long range carrier. I know, many Swiss won't like to read this statement. But looking at the triangle FRA-MUC-ZRH, for somebody not really having the choice in Germany to board a nonstop flight, it may become a good option going trough ZRH. I am sure, schedules between LH and LX will be adapted as well to serve eachother and the network of both airlines will eventually become one system, that serves both countries the best possible way.
ACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7779 posts, RR: 33
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3403 times:
Quoting Avianca (Reply 6): no more, what destinations they served in the past on long hauls just Domenican Republik? or
The only destinations I know of for sure were various destinations in the Caribbean and YYZ (at least in 1990). I wasn't sure if they still did trans-atlantic runs anymore though, can't recall seeing any out of DUS recently.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 10511 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3397 times:
A few things - to answer the question:
We do not have a single large city like LON or PAR, our markets are fragmented which makes it more difficult to sustain a second long bhaul carrier,
LON is the largest O/D market in the world. Easy for a secoind force, especially when the product is that much better than BA's
LTU is doing a good job in competing with LH but thgey can alway take only a small slice oif the market they are serving. After all, they serve JFK daily now, China almost daily and a lot of the leisure destinatons cater for business travellers as well.
And finally, the UK would not have Virgin without Richard Branson. This type of entrepreneur (who is working with other people's money primarily) is, unfortunatley, not possible in the German economoy, where the ill conceived "Mitbestimmung" is still mandatory in PLC companies. If that ever changes and someone like Sir Richard comes up here, things might change as well. .
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3228 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3395 times:
Quoting Avianca (Reply 5): maybe 15 years ago, today Germany is the centralisedest country of europe.
I think you are refering to the political situation. I think Vfw614 is refering to the distribution of the people in the country, meaning that Germany has many medium- and large-sized towns all over the country; together they create a big population, but none of them is as big as London.
Slightly off-topic: is there a kind of measurement or index how to express how centralized (demographically) a country is?
EGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3379 times:
Quoting Avianca (Reply 10): Quoting EGNR (Reply 9):
believe Hapagfly is going to be short-haul only with a pure 737 fleet
they have still some A310
They still have some A310s at the moment, and an A306 leased in from Lufthansa judging by pics in the database. They recently signed a deal with Boeing for more 737-800s and said that they would replace the A310s (4 left in the fleet?) with them.
Hapagfly could be a potential 737-900ER customer along with other European charter carriers.
This is true, it is not really a competition and competition is what is needed here.
I know from my days with Balair how the situation was. Our management was told all the time from SR in ZRH what they need to do and how. They probably also killed BB finally with this. One small example: 1986 when the DC-8-63 needed replacement, BB did a study and came to the conclusion that the 757 would suit best. The NO from ZRH was for sure, as the A310 was in their favor. Later on, when Balair came in the hands of Hotelplan and became eventually Belair, they got a fleet that suited their needs..... two B757's and one B763
This competition of intelligence and influence will probably also be found rather fast in the new ownership and management situation in the LH - LX group.
On the other hand it was always our own proudness to show that we are in certain aspects better or at least different than Swissair. Nothing better to hear a passenger commenting that the BB flight was better than the SR flight. Sure, we also were cheaper...
I guess this kind of competition we will also find in the LH - LX group.
Quoting Avianca (Reply 13): it would be great to have a second independent carrier, Avianca should open a subsidiary in Germany
So "Aerovias NaCionales de Alemania" would need the help of German Efromovich who will base a number of F100's, doing the feeder to the 767's linking via BOG to the Americas.
Chiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2005 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3328 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14): We do not have a single large city like LON or PAR, our markets are fragmented which makes it more difficult to sustain a second long bhaul carrier,
I think this is the main point.
Whoever wants to start a long haul airline from Germany needs at least domestic feeders. And LH will NEVER help a new competitor with a SPA. The maybe only airport that would generate enough traffic would be FRA with its Railway connections and the high number of foreign carriers that might be willing to offer some agreements. But FRA has just one HUGE problem: SLOTS.
And if you want to start a Longhaul out of MUC, DUS or TXL/SXF, you are lost.
But, AVIANCA, if you want to we can sit together on the weekend and found an airline. It could fly FRA-CCS-BOG and carry a lot of Cargo !