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Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?  
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3004 times:

Why germany has not a real second long-haul airline "ala" Virgin GreatBritain has.

Germany is the biggest european country regarding the population and is a big holiday destination.

At least some routes could be served profitable, (NYC, MIA area, Lax, ORD, YYZ, JNB, BKK, NRT, PVG, PEK, HKG, GRU, MEX) for example.

with decent european conections on smaller aircrafts or with an cooperation with any european low-cost carrier they could optimize the load-factors....

lets discuss.

regards
Avianca


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline123 From Bolivia, joined Nov 2003, 745 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Seems you forgot LTU, which is also a "real" longrange airline because they don´t only fly charters, but also regular longrange flights to Africa, Asia and the Americas.

LTU is a well known airline in Germany and is recognized for its high service levels, modern fleet and attractive destinations.


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

How many long-haul charter companies does Germany have compared to the UK?

Germany
LTU
Thomas Cook (Condor)
Hapag Lloyd (still long-hauls?)

UK
Thomas Cook
My Travel
Britannia (?)



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2962 times:

Well, we have LTU after all and they pretend to be a scheduled long-haul carrier serving destinations in Asia, Africa, North and Latin America.

Served profitably from where - that is the question ?? Germany is, in contrast to other countries that are or have been able to support two or more long-haul carriers (e.g. France: AF und UTA, UK: BA and Virgin), too decentralised.

The reason why Virgin can survive wothout a hub and spoke system is because LON itself is such a big market.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2955 times:

Quoting 123 (Reply 1):
Seems you forgot LTU

no i didn´t, the problem with ltu is that they still serve mainly leisure destinations, the other long haul flights they operate are not daily, just 2 to 3 flights per week (JFK mor frequently of corse) and not year around destinations. I would compare LTU not with Virgin more with a British Leisure Carrier.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 3):
too decentralised.

maybe 15 years ago, today Germany is the centralisedest country of europe.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):
Hapag Lloyd (still long-hauls?)

no more, what destinations they served in the past on long hauls just Domenican Republik? or



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting 123 (Reply 1):
LTU is a well known airline in Germany and is recognized for its high service levels, modern fleet and attractive destinations.

 rotfl  Sorry, but did you just use LTU and high service levels in the same sentence?  rotfl 

LH seems to have Germany pretty well covered though, 2 major hubs in FRA and MUC. I could imagine that it would be very difficult for a new carrier to start up. BTW, what ever became of the one airline that wanted to start low fare trans-atlantic service from CGN a few years back?



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 5):
maybe 15 years ago, today Germany is the centralisedest country of Europe.

This is correct. For us here in Switzerland, the hubs in FRA and MUC are very often the best gateways to the world, since LX has shrinked down it's worldwide network significantly compared with the former SR network.

As LH now bought LX, this may become in a way like a "second" German long range carrier. I know, many Swiss won't like to read this statement. But looking at the triangle FRA-MUC-ZRH, for somebody not really having the choice in Germany to board a nonstop flight, it may become a good option going trough ZRH. I am sure, schedules between LH and LX will be adapted as well to serve eachother and the network of both airlines will eventually become one system, that serves both countries the best possible way.


User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2909 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):
How many long-haul charter companies does Germany have compared to the UK?

Flying longhaul charters from the UK we have: Thomsonfly, Monarch Airlines, MyTravel Airways, Thomas Cook, Excel Airways, First Choice Airways.

Not sure if Air Atlanta Europe/Travel City Direct count... Doesn't Air Atlanta Europe have a UK AOC?

In Germany, I believe Hapagfly is going to be short-haul only with a pure 737 fleet. I've heard that TUI will use LTU for its longhaul flying from Germany instead.



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

Quoting EGNR (Reply 9):
believe Hapagfly is going to be short-haul only with a pure 737 fleet

they have still some A310



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
no more, what destinations they served in the past on long hauls just Domenican Republik? or

The only destinations I know of for sure were various destinations in the Caribbean and YYZ (at least in 1990). I wasn't sure if they still did trans-atlantic runs anymore though, can't recall seeing any out of DUS recently.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineRlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1085 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 7):
Sorry, but did you just use LTU and high service levels in the same sentence?

I did. I have flow LTU 5 times to LAX in the past 3 years. Every flight was better than my ones on LH, AA, DL, US or KLM.



I can drive faster than you
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 8):
As LH now bought LX, this may become in a way like a "second" German long range carrier.

the problem is that it´s the same holding, it would be great to have a second independet carrier, Avianca should open a subsidary in Germany

"Avianca Deutschland"  Big grin



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

A few things - to answer the question:

We do not have a single large city like LON or PAR, our markets are fragmented which makes it more difficult to sustain a second long bhaul carrier,

LON is the largest O/D market in the world. Easy for a secoind force, especially when the product is that much better than BA's

LTU is doing a good job in competing with LH but thgey can alway take only a small slice oif the market they are serving. After all, they serve JFK daily now, China almost daily and a lot of the leisure destinatons cater for business travellers as well.

And finally, the UK would not have Virgin without Richard Branson. This type of entrepreneur (who is working with other people's money primarily) is, unfortunatley, not possible in the German economoy, where the ill conceived "Mitbestimmung" is still mandatory in PLC companies. If that ever changes and someone like Sir Richard comes up here, things might change as well. .



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 5):
maybe 15 years ago, today Germany is the centralisedest country of europe.

I think you are refering to the political situation. I think Vfw614 is refering to the distribution of the people in the country, meaning that Germany has many medium- and large-sized towns all over the country; together they create a big population, but none of them is as big as London.

Slightly off-topic: is there a kind of measurement or index how to express how centralized (demographically) a country is?


User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 10):
Quoting EGNR (Reply 9):
believe Hapagfly is going to be short-haul only with a pure 737 fleet

they have still some A310

They still have some A310s at the moment, and an A306 leased in from Lufthansa judging by pics in the database. They recently signed a deal with Boeing for more 737-800s and said that they would replace the A310s (4 left in the fleet?) with them.

Hapagfly could be a potential 737-900ER customer along with other European charter carriers.



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 12):
I did. I have flow LTU 5 times to LAX in the past 3 years. Every flight was better than my ones on LH, AA, DL, US or KLM.

You were luckier then me. I flew them 3 times between DUS-YVR/YYC last year and each time was worse then the first.

Maybe the close proximity of neighboring countries like France (AF), Holland (KL) have influence to a certain extent?



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2840 times:

I cannot think of any airline that just does long-haul like Virgin does and therefore exclusively relies on O&D.

Literally all other true and sizeable long-haul airlines are hub & spoke airlines, feeding their long-hauls with own aircraft or through subsidiaries.

I can only think of UTA and, to some extent, TWA and PanAm that had a philosophy similar to Virgin.

It certainly would not work in Germany - where would you want to base such an airline that could not feed its flights ?


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2831 times:

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 18):
It certainly would not work in Germany - where would you want to base such an airline that could not feed its flights ?

well I also do not think they could fill up the flights with totally O&D market, due this they could as before mentioned cooperate with an european loco carrier.

CGN would not bad, on the other hand MUC would be also very good (near to austria, italy, switzerland, czech republik....) and MUC has still more space aviable



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
the problem is that it´s the same holding,

This is true, it is not really a competition and competition is what is needed here.
I know from my days with Balair how the situation was. Our management was told all the time from SR in ZRH what they need to do and how. They probably also killed BB finally with this. One small example: 1986 when the DC-8-63 needed replacement, BB did a study and came to the conclusion that the 757 would suit best. The NO from ZRH was for sure, as the A310 was in their favor. Later on, when Balair came in the hands of Hotelplan and became eventually Belair, they got a fleet that suited their needs..... two B757's and one B763  Wink

This competition of intelligence and influence will probably also be found rather fast in the new ownership and management situation in the LH - LX group.

On the other hand it was always our own proudness to show that we are in certain aspects better or at least different than Swissair. Nothing better to hear a passenger commenting that the BB flight was better than the SR flight. Sure, we also were cheaper...
I guess this kind of competition we will also find in the LH - LX group.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
it would be great to have a second independent carrier, Avianca should open a subsidiary in Germany

So "Aerovias NaCionales de Alemania" would need the help of German Efromovich who will base a number of F100's, doing the feeder to the 767's linking via BOG to the Americas. Big grin


User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2005 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
We do not have a single large city like LON or PAR, our markets are fragmented which makes it more difficult to sustain a second long bhaul carrier,

I think this is the main point.
Whoever wants to start a long haul airline from Germany needs at least domestic feeders. And LH will NEVER help a new competitor with a SPA. The maybe only airport that would generate enough traffic would be FRA with its Railway connections and the high number of foreign carriers that might be willing to offer some agreements. But FRA has just one HUGE problem: SLOTS.
And if you want to start a Longhaul out of MUC, DUS or TXL/SXF, you are lost.

But, AVIANCA, if you want to we can sit together on the weekend and found an airline. It could fly FRA-CCS-BOG and carry a lot of Cargo ! dopey 

And we both could always fly "home" for free !  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 21):
But, AVIANCA, if you want to we can sit together on the weekend and found an airline. It could fly FRA-CCS-BOG and carry a lot of Cargo !

And we both could always fly "home" for free !

sounds very good!  Big grin , now we have to found a person with the money to start the project.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2005 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2768 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 22):
now we have to found a person with the money to start the project.

WHAT ? You don't have it ?
We just need to compete against LH ! Come on ! Ask your Mom !


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 23):
We just need to compete against LH ! Come on ! Ask your Mom !

well she has the money, but the problem she works for LH and will not lose her job...  Silly hope you understand, so we have to use your finacial backround...



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
25 Avianca : do not forget the "Ruhr-Gebiet" not a single city, but very very big, would say bigger than LON or PAR
26 HT : HF´s last longhaul destinations were PUJ and POP - both withdrawn several years ago. The operation was not making enough money - and especially in wi
27 Avianca : had the flights such bad load-factors? I always thought the flights were mostly full.
28 HT : "Full": Yes, but very bad yield even though a lot pf pax were crammed into that B763´s. The main user of those Britannia Germany-flights tour operat
29 Joost : Oh yes, that is right. It is a large population, but still there are many differences with London and Paris. There are many people living in DUS and
30 Avianca : I can remember they sold also tours via Aral Gasoline stations...lowest packages aviable under 1000german-marks ( 500euros for the flight inclusive a
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