Duke From Canada, joined Sep 1999, 1135 posts, RR: 2 Posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7575 times:
I saw on another post that 802, the damaged and long-static MD-11 of Delta is in service again. Is this true or is it just a rumor? If in service, who is it with?
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4553 posts, RR: 17 Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7301 times:
I haven't seen anything official, but I have seen several posts here and on the finance board to the effect that there are rumours that it will be leased to WOA now that it is repaired and has been flown off from ATL. Meanwhile, WOA just announced that it will be converting one of its pax MD11s to freight. A substitute for that bird, maybe?
B4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2595 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7171 times:
Possibly as you describe. One other note, some spots and shots exist of one of the MD-11 operated by a new carrier, but carrying (stripped) DL colors and registration.
MD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6982 times:
How many of these threads are going to happen!!!!! .....a few years back Delta replaced their MD-11's with 777's .............as mentioned they have been sold to WO,FX or are in storage at YMX and GYR.
Flyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1334 posts, RR: 27 Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6909 times:
Quoting B4real (Reply 3): Possibly as you describe. One other note, some spots and shots exist of one of the MD-11 operated by a new carrier, but carrying (stripped) DL colors and registration.
New carrier? World has been around for 50+ years. The aircraft you reference is N801DE flying for World Airways on a temporary lease from Delta/Leasing Company. No words on when she'll be returned.
World has charter flights to destinations around the world, today alone there are flights to 15 different countries, including two in Africa, two in the middle east, five in Europe, four in Asia and two in North America. All on 17 aircraft.
MD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6701 times:
Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 5): World has charter flights to destinations around the world, today alone there are flights to 15 different countries, including two in Africa, two in the middle east, five in Europe, four in Asia and two in North America. All on 17 aircraft.
What two African destinations are you talking about??...because WO doesnt fly to SSH anymore only the Sonair LAD flight from IAH ,unless there is another destination.
FRA2DTW From Germany, joined Feb 2004, 322 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6540 times:
I think he/she may be talking about the weekly flight JFK-Accra, Ghana operated by North American Airlines, which is a sister company of World, flown on their 767.
Duke From Canada, joined Sep 1999, 1135 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6509 times:
Devan, the thing that really intersts me is whether N802DE has been repaired or if it will be scrapped. Of course Delta has stopped flying the MD-11
but what has happened to the MD-11s? They (re being) returned to
service with other operators. I would like to know whether it's true that 802 has been repaired.
Orion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6468 times:
Why were the MD11s only in DL service for such a short space of time? After all their previoud three holer, the L1011 was with them for many years. Why did they want shut of the modern MD11 so quickly?
OttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6423 times:
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9): Why were the MD11s only in DL service for such a short space of time? After all their previoud three holer, the L1011 was with them for many years. Why did they want shut of the modern MD11 so quickly?
Mainly because the MD-11 did not produce the results that MDD promised that it would. It did not carry as much cargo or have the fuel effieciency that was touted by MDD during the production stage. Delta, in the attempt to be a launch customer and put it into service first(which they did), in the long run lost out with the airplane. The MD-11 makes for a great freighter, but is not a wise choice for passenger operations. Plus, towards the end of the decade and into 2000, it was realized that the way of the future is twin engine ETOPS, and one extra engine is just not needed and would become problematic. Why have an engine that requires maintenance and burns fuel if you do not need it? By that time Delta had already recieved its 777's and it was decided the MD-11 should be put to pasture in order to save money. I can agree with it, but man, that was one nice cockpit!
Persotvik From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 274 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6393 times:
Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10): Mainly because the MD-11 did not produce the results that MDD promised that it would. It did not carry as much cargo or have the fuel effieciency that was touted by MDD during the production stage. Delta, in the attempt to be a launch customer and put it into service first(which they did), in the long run lost out with the airplane. The MD-11 makes for a great freighter, but is not a wise choice for passenger operations. Plus, towards the end of the decade and into 2000, it was realized that the way of the future is twin engine ETOPS, and one extra engine is just not needed and would become problematic. Why have an engine that requires maintenance and burns fuel if you do not need it? By that time Delta had already recieved its 777's and it was decided the MD-11 should be put to pasture in order to save money. I can agree with it, but man, that was one nice cockpit!
You must remember that the fuelburn and rangeproblem was solved by MDD when they realised the problem. But the damage were done and then come twin engine ETOPS which airlines opted more and more. As Boeing took over MDD they did see the MD11 as a competitor to the B777 and the line was closed down
Today the goal is twin engines at ultralong range flights. Make sense.
Orion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6388 times:
Delta should have kept faith with the MD11 for a bit longer. As has been said, MDD did make improvements and the MD11 overcame some of its initial problems and has proved to be a reliable and capable aircraft and a money maker on long haul, ask Finnair and KLM.
I am suprised at Delta. After the teething troubles of the L1011, you would have thought they would have persevered with the MD11 and shown faith in the product they chose.
Persotvik From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 274 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6292 times:
They are paying for this today.....
The madness in fleet renewal some years ago result in nearly bankrupty for american majors today! Among other reasons of course.
Yanqui67 From Puerto Rico, joined Jan 2005, 505 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 6238 times:
While we had them at Delta they were very problematic. They required way more maintenance than any other aircraft type we had. We almost had a party to celebrate the permanent departure of them. I love the way they look, but I didnt like wrenching on them they sucked big time. I am sure some other mechanics could chime in.
Orion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 6193 times:
What more maintenance for the MD11 than for the L1011? I understood that when the L1011 came into service it suffered major techinical teething problems.
Eventually the MD11 would have settled down and proved reliable for Delta, as they have for other airlines. They never were given much of a chance and mothballed at the earliest opportunity
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 15 Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 6156 times:
The aircraft in question, N802DE, has been repaired. The registration is still valid, and I have heard rumors the ship is going to World Airways on lease. While the damage from the maintenance related fire at ATL was severe, the aircraft is deemed too valuable to be written off. Since there are only 195 MD-11s in existence, they're a precious commodilty as freighters. This ship. line #481 is only a mere 14 yrs old...still plenty of life left in her. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4553 posts, RR: 17 Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 5993 times:
Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 14): While we had them at Delta they were very problematic. They required way more maintenance than any other aircraft type we had. We almost had a party to celebrate the permanent departure of them. I love the way they look, but I didnt like wrenching on them they sucked big time.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4553 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4921 times:
"The question is what happens if Delta goes Chapter 11, and the
MD-11 leases are voided? Will World be able to do a deal to keep the birds?"
You probably know this, but leases *to* Delta from another company aren't automatically voided in bankruptcy. There are some special provisions relating to aircraft leases, but it's basically up to the lessee (the party to whom the thing is leased) to reject the lease within a certain period of time, or not. If DL wants to continue to lease the aircraft *from* the lessors because it's making a profit leasing them *to* WOA, then I doubt they'd reject the lease. If, OTOH, they seize this opportunity to finally rid themselves of these leases, which makes some sense, one would hope that some genius somewhere included a provision in the sublease to WOA that was approved by the lessor and handles this situation. Or maybe not...
FI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1056 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4811 times:
Correct, I should have been more clear. My statement should have read something like "what happens in DL rejects the leases". It could end up
being a good thing for World, no one knows.
I do in fact hope WOA does get to keep the birds. They really REALLY need the lift!
Personally, I am more worried about the folks at DL, and truly do wish them the best.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
Clipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 671 posts, RR: 14 Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4666 times:
Why in the world would World ( pun intended) select an aircraft with an OEW over 5,000 Lbs overweight to convert to a freighter? 279 was repainted last spring and was weighed not once, but twice and each time showed a 5,000 lb INCREASE in the OEW. The only remedy was to reduce the max ACL by a like 5,000 lbs. That's a severe penalty on a freighter.
OttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4052 times:
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 12): . As has been said, MDD did make improvements and the MD11 overcame some of its initial problems and has proved to be a reliable and capable aircraft and a money maker on long haul, ask Finnair and KLM.
I am suprised at Delta. After the teething troubles of the L1011, you would have thought they would have persevered with the MD11 and shown faith in the product they chose.
True, but you have to look at the time period. At the time that Delta had just put the MD-11 into service for a couple of years and was seeing their problems. At the same time, Delta was going through financial troubles, after purchasing what was left of Pan Am and looking for future investments. At the same time, Boeing about to test their new airliner, the 777, and it would have the same capabilities as the MD-11, but at a lower operating cost. Just as well, Delta had been having problems with the MD-90 and cancelled their remaining orders, which didn't help McDonnell Douglas' current reputation(early 90's) with Delta. These are just a few reasons as to why Delta could have already been looking for eventual replacements already. Plus, by the time 2000 rolled around, Delta was already predicting a downturn in revenue and the 9/11 attacks didnt help out any.
Now, the L-1011 was a different story. Yes, they had problems, but they were needed for an expanding airline about to spread its wings to international routes. Granted, Delta did at the time have the 747, the DC-10, and the L1011, two of which were having serious problems. Eventually, Delta chose the L-1011 for the technological advancements that it offered(at the time).
Yet another theory for Delta possibly retiring the MD-11 so quickly was the costs of operating them via labor. At one point, you had the 777, MD-11, and 763ER running international routes. The cost of paying the different pilots for 3 different airplanes operating those international routes is pretty big, not to mention you still had the L-1011 operating domestic routes as well. Big airplanes require big salaries and at different payscales. Trim those aircraft types down to a few different types, and everything would be much more streamlined and efficiently.
These are just some of the possibilities that could have brought Delta around to retiring them at such a young(just over a decade) age.
FI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1056 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3662 times:
Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 22): Why in the world would World ( pun intended) select an aircraft with an OEW over 5,000 Lbs overweight to convert to a freighter? 279 was repainted last spring and was weighed not once, but twice and each time showed a 5,000 lb INCREASE in the OEW. The only remedy was to reduce the max ACL by a like 5,000 lbs. That's a severe penalty on a freighter.
Rgds,
Ed
Good question Ed . . . we asked the same exact question. The reason is supposedly that Boeing will pay for the conversion. 279 is in fact a strange bird. I think the ACL is now about 114.5K. Fortunately normally it usually doesn't get quite that heavy. I think the weight issue would be addressed by Boeing at conversion. Who knows.
FI642
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
25 MD90fan: If you are talking about the ship that had and engine fire I am not sure about the status but I think that she is in ATL. There is one MD-11 in LAX u
26 MD90fan: If you are talking about the ship that had and engine fire I am not sure about the status but I think that she is in ATL. There is one MD-11 in LAX u
27 Flyer732: There is another destination, operates for the military. Not the JFK-ACC that North American is running. 802 is no longer in ATL, it ferried (after r
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From Canada, joined Sep 1999, 1135 posts, 
of Delta is in service again. Is this true or is it just a rumor? If in service, who is it with?
From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2595 posts, 
From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, 
.....a few years back Delta replaced their MD-11's with 777's 
.............as mentioned they have been sold to WO,FX or are in storage at YMX and GYR.
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From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
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