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The Crash Of Flight ZU522 (Helios Airways)  
User currently offlineD5DBY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9443 times:

I've read many post on this website about the helios crash.
Some of them not so good, but that's just my opinion.

For example we can take this guy that was sure that one of the pilots where in the cabin, just because the F16 pilot only spotted one pilot in the cockpit!

its pretty hard to see the floor of the cockpit when u are sitting in a F16...isnt that right?

this post is about the most logical explanation of the crash, its not a post to track how the plane where flying.....that we can leave to the investigation team, right? I mean altitude, route and stuff like that. im not a technican expert, so there is no need to point that out.

oki....this is what happened to ZU522...

the B737 have had problems with the cabin pressure before, in december i think.

the plane lifted from larnaca. when the plane reached like 8.000-12.000 feet a small problem with the complex cabin pressure system happened. the flight crew thought it was the air conditioning because the plane got somewhat cold and so.

after they remained at the FL a while, they for somewhat reason thought they had "fixed" the problem....great...the captain thought, lets climb up to 30.000 feet....

the cabin pressure system had failured before, and was "broken" when the plane took of from larnaca. the service team haven't fixed the pressure system after the first failure....why they didn't do this i dont know.

so....when the plane reached 30.000( cruise altitude) the pressure is very high.
and the failured cabin pressure system just couldn't handle that extreme pressure....

boom!! Catastrophic cabin pressure failure acuers...u are now at 30.000 feet.
oxygen masks drops immediately, both in cabin and cockpit.

as standard safety procedure, both pilots immediately takes on their oxygen masks.

at 30.000 feet, without oxygen, u remain conscious for about 50-60 seconds.
the 2 pilots start to prepare a emergency descent, as standard safety procedures, 40 seconds have passed...and both pilots are without oxygen because the oxygen masks doesn't work. one of the pilots notice this or notice that the other pilot is starting to faint.

he gets up from his seat to go get portable oxygen because he now know the mask dosen´t work. this effort on 30.000 feet is just to much....he faints and drops on the cockpit floor.unconsious.

in the mean time, FAs and PAX waits for and emergency decent. nothing happens of course, because auto pilot is switched on.

if the PAX oxygen was working i dont know, but FAs got portable oxygen and maybe also standard "roof drop masks"...if they where working.
Anyways, after a unknown period of time FA realize no emergency decent is being performed and start wondering why.

Because 9/11...the cockpit door is locked and FAs cant open it during flight.(because then terrorist could force the FAs to open the door)

the FAs knocks the cockpit door, they dont receive a response from the pilots.
they starts to wonder why the pilots dosent answer...time passes...they gets more and more worried about the situation.

the auto pilot flyes the plane in over greece airspace and descent the plane to a altitude where you can breathe.
then the auto pilot reach its check point...and start flying in circles around the checkpoint.

if the PAX is unconscious or not under this part of the flight is not interesting, depends on if the PAX oxygen worked...it probably didn't work, if u look at the autopsy, that says many or all PAX where unconscious when the plane crashed.

oki..now when the FA realize the auto pilot just flying in circles they panics...somehow they manage to break down the door.( it may not be reinforced, just locked)

flying in circles consume more fuel than flying straight. the FAs gain entry to the cockpit and found the 2 pilots unconscious...the FA with flight training, he is a pilot, takes control of the aircraft.

he was of course very nervous and had a high pulse. he disconnects the auto pilot.....and starts flying the plane manually.

exatcly how he flown i dont know...around some times over land..maybe...trying to figure out the instruments. he sent an emergency message.
he probably dident use the radio to contact any ATC...beacuse he couldn't find the right channel or so...and he was to consumed with the flying. just think about that huge pressure and pulse he must have had. he probably made some "human-errors" after disconnecting the auto pilot. I can see why.

for example failed to contact the ATC for direction immediately after he disengaged the auto pilot.
anyway, he started to looking for a place to put the plane down, and he probably worked with the radio to.
he got pretty low, started to climb a bit........and the fuel ran out...and on the low altitude that he was on....he hadent a chance to glide the plane to safety.
some reports said he where pretty near to a safe landing, that is probably true, that info the investigation team can easily get hold of.

this is my opinion on what happened to 5B-DBY...i think its good....logical
I have no idea about the cabin pressure system failure..why did it fail?
I suspect that the service was poorly performed on the aircraft, or even extremely bad performed...

1 of the pilots son said that his father had said: "if they see my diary, helios airways goona go out of business"

this can be a huge mantaince scandal....like Alaska Airlines.....
why didn't the pilot masks worked? dont know...service mistake or very complex failure....

And some points



1 u dont immediatley notice if u receive oxygen with the masks

2 FAs waited or considered the situation a pretty long time before they gained entry to the cockpit. problems with the door? not able to really move and use force before the plane got to an altitude where u can breathe? a belief that the pilots was in control?

3 the hight stress level of the flight trained FAs made him do several "human-errors"....if he was in a simulator..he maybe could have saved the plane after he disengaged the auto pilot.

4 probably maintance failure

this is my theory......not a technic report.
I think this is the most logical theory.

this is a very tragic event hope we will learn something from it.....maybe one pilot should put the "roof" mask on and the other pilot should put a portable oxygen mask on...in case of a pressure failure....

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9419 times:

Welcome to A.net Axel,

I suggest you re-read some posts in the other thread, say the last twenty, and I am sure you will realize your theory takes a lot of water...a lot of it.


User currently offlineACEregular From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 675 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9242 times:

Yes there are lots of theories under discussion already, yours seems to fit mine to. I think one of the crew was incapacitated on the flightdeck floor out of view. I also think the cabin crew waited for an emergency descent which never happened as unbeknown to them the flight deck crew were out of it. the only thing I dont think was a problem was gaining access to the flightdeck. Cabin Crew are trained to be able to open the door, its not a fire axe job! it would not have taken long to get in.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9157 times:

Your Theory makes sense.
Hopefully the facts will be known soon.
This has all confused in Mx at work out here.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9058 times:

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
the 2 pilots start to prepare a emergency descent, as standard safety procedures, 40 seconds have passed

This takes much much less, 4-5-6" ?

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):

the auto pilot flyes the plane in over greece airspace and descent the plane to a altitude where you can breathe.

The AP does not descend the plane on its own.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
then the auto pilot reach its check point...and start flying in circles around the checkpoint.

The plane is on holding at FL340, obviously on AP.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
if the PAX is unconscious or not under this part of the flight is not interesting, depends on if the PAX oxygen worked...it probably didn't work, if u look at the autopsy, that says many or all PAX where unconscious when the plane crashed

Autopsies performed on all identifiable bodies show that were all alive before the crash. It cannot be determined if they were conscious or not.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
flying in circles consume more fuel than flying straight.

Why is that ?

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
exatcly how he flown i dont know...around some times over land..maybe...trying to figure out the instruments. he sent an emergency message.

If you looked at the radar data you would be informed.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
he probably dident use the radio to contact any ATC...beacuse he couldn't find the right channel or so

In the event he/she would have intended to communicate and knew how to do, he/she would not have tried to look for a channel, but called AS IT WAS, i.e. on the frequency last used by the crew. There is no doubt that all channels allocated to Athens ATC are monitored, as well as 121.5 and 243.0

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
if the PAX oxygen was working i dont know

You could have realized that in case cabin decompression did happen, that plane has been at 34,000 feet and about minus 50C for more than 2 hours.
Cabin oxygen is produced for much less time than that and 2 hours at -50 is not that good for your health...

Note: the body of the Captain has not been found yet, but evidence shows there were two persons in the cockpit, the F/O and the cabin chief.


User currently offlineA330 From Belgium, joined May 1999, 649 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9007 times:

What a load of crap!
AGAIN, all of you FS2002 kids, refrain from thinking you are aviation and B737 experts, what you are writing is utter nonsence. All of it.



Shiek!
User currently offlineD5DBY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8905 times:

yeah.....your post was fun A330, and your right, im not an aviation expert.

Also, Lakobos, your right, I learned now that the AP dosent´t descend the plane by itself....its just flies the plane to the programmed checkpoint and then starts to circle around it at cruise altitude....

but lakobos.....you said an emergency descent takes 5-8 seconds........if u are at 29.000 feet.....just flying to 10.000 feet..(where u maybe can stay conscious a while) it maybe takes like 30-40 seconds? the pilots probably did some discussions for like 5-20 seconds before they decided to descent....when u put all this together, with some other delays, u realize that there was no time...and the pilots passed out because of the lack of oxygen in the masks.

but most interesting perhaps.....your right ACE regular...FA have the combination to the cockpit door...and there was no problem to gain entry to the cockpit.....I was clearly wrong there.

but....then when the FA realized no emergency descent being performed, they knocks the cockpit door....the Receive no answer...of course they open the door and finds the two pilots unconscious.
this mean the flight trained FA got control over the aircraft before they even got in over greece airspace.....right?

then this is the interesting part...why did he spent like 2 hours flying around over greece? with his flight training...he should be able to get in over greece and land faster than 2 hours...before the fuel tanks was empty......

would be intresting to hear your opinions about this ideas...and..I actually dont have FS2002....


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3964 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8847 times:

Your crappy theory ignores quite a few facts that have already been established and discussed at great lengths in other threads....

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 6):
then this is the interesting part...why did he spent like 2 hours flying around over greece? with his flight training...he should be able to get in over greece and land faster than 2 hours...before the fuel tanks was empty......

He did not do that. He entered the cockpit apparently not before 1130hrs, for whatever reason. Who are we to know why ?

And he "did not fly around over Greece". The FMC/AP did a missed approach at FL340 at the ETA and then entered the aircraft into a hold over Kea island which was flown 9 times until 1150hrs.

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 6):
.if u are at 29.000 feet.....just flying to 10.000 feet..(where u maybe can stay conscious a while) it maybe takes like 30-40 seconds

Sure - that would be a descent rate of 38.000ft a minute..... Have fun.....



By the way - what a bad taste to join a.net with a username that obviously resembles the registration of the crashed aircraft (which, by the way, was 5B-DBY, not D5-DBY....)


User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8820 times:

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 6):
but....then when the FA realized no emergency descent being performed, they knocks the cockpit door....the Receive no answer...of course they open the door and finds the two pilots unconscious.
this mean the flight trained FA got control over the aircraft before they even got in over greece airspace.....right?

then this is the interesting part...why did he spent like 2 hours flying around over greece? with his flight training...he should be able to get in over greece and land faster than 2 hours...before the fuel tanks was empty......

The flight attendant which was also a trained pilot might not have trained on this type of aircraft. If he was a pilot of a smaller aircraft such as a prop or even a small jet, the 737 would have been a very different aircraft to fly. In addition he could be hampered by effects of low oxygen, extreme pressure due to the shocking situation and other factors which we don't know or will ever know. Even for experienced airline pilots it takes days if not weeks to transition to learning to fly another aircraft type . So imagine having to figure out how to fly a different aircraft within minutes under these stressful conditions.


User currently offline747Loadmaster From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8764 times:

Does the 737 door open in or out, because if it opens in and the pilot was on the floor in front of it maybe that's why it took them long to get in even if they know the code. Sat in a 737 jump seat many years ago and remember it is a small space there.

User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8749 times:

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 6):
but lakobos.....you said an emergency descent takes 5-8 seconds

I did not say that, learn to add comprehension to reading.

You wrote:

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 4):
the 2 pilots start to prepare a emergency descent, as standard safety procedures, 40 seconds have passed

If safety procedures were followed (...or had to be followed), it would have taken no more than a very seconds to initiate the descent.

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 6):
with his flight training..

Who said the "conscious person" in the cockpit did have flight training ?
Very early speculation was that a male f/a with a cpl license could have tried to control the plane.
It could have made sense, however the plane was (apparently) not "controlled" by someone used to fly a plane.
After the bodies were identified, it was known that the conscious person in the cockpit was the female cabin chief.

Vfw,
do you know if the electronic bay area can be reached from inside the plane and where is the trapdoor ?
(I am wondering if that could be the place where the Captain was....and which would have been the precise impact area...possible reason why he has not be found yet)


User currently offline747Loadmaster From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8690 times:

Post 9.
Sorry, was talking about the cockpit door.


User currently offlineD5DBY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8660 times:

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 7):
Sure - that would be a descent rate of 38.000ft a minute..... Have fun.....

oki.....i dont know anything about descent rate....then it took even more time...and my point is just that there was no time for the pilots to make a descent.

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 10):
If safety procedures were followed (...or had to be followed), it would have taken no more than a very seconds to initiate the descent.

dosent matter...there was no time to make a descent in order to remain conscious.....its what i wrote earlier....even if it took 0.23 seconds..there was no time...no time at all

jam747, great point....could explain a great deal...

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 7):
And he "did not fly around over Greece". The FMC/AP did a missed approach at FL340 at the ETA and then entered the aircraft into a hold over Kea island which was flown 9 times until 1150hrs.

yeah?....I wrote...." the plane flied in over greece and started to circle around over some checkpoint"....this mean exactly the same thing....right?...it does...I just dont use the correct language. u cant possibly tell me this 2 things dosent mean the same thing?

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 10):
Who said the "conscious person" in the cockpit did have flight training ?

hmmm....lets see....how many FAs is there on a B737....at most 3-4.......F16 pilots spotted at least 2 persons in the cockpit.....that leaves us with a 50-75 % possibility that the FA with flight training was in the cockpit......and he was the new "captain" of course because of his flight training...

however....wfv614.....where did u get the info that the FAs dident entered the cockpit before 11.30?? reports from the F16 pilots?

its a good point...if its true....it explains why he couldn't land the aircraft..Because if he gain access to the flight deck at 11.30...there probably wasn't enough time to make a safe landing...taking into consideration jam747s exelent point that he where under extreme stress and chock....and not at all used to this B737..........


User currently offlineTimRees From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 354 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8556 times:

I note your profile name is D5DBY

The aircraft which crashed was 5B-DBY!

Attention to detail helps when investigating aircraft disasters....


User currently offlineMikkel777 From Norway, joined Oct 2002, 370 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8523 times:

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 4):
Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
flying in circles consume more fuel than flying straight.

Why is that ?

In a turn, the vertical component of lift is reduced in favor of an increased horizontal component. To compensate for this, and keep the vertical component constant, you increase the angle of attack. By doing so, more induced drag is created, and with more drag, more thrust is needed to stay on the selected speed. You can probably figure out for yourself that more thrust gives higher fuelflow.


User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8505 times:

Clearly you have an agenda. Time to add to the holes.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
the B737 have had problems with the cabin pressure before, in december i think.

Eight months between write-ups is not a history of problems. They are most likely unrelated.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
the plane lifted from larnaca. when the plane reached like 8.000-12.000 feet a small problem with the complex cabin pressure system happened. the flight crew thought it was the air conditioning because the plane got somewhat cold and so.

An airconditioning problem is a pressurization problem, the systems are intertwined with each other. A competent flight crew knows this and treats it as such.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
so....when the plane reached 30.000( cruise altitude) the pressure is very high. and the failured cabin pressure system just couldn't handle that extreme pressure....

boom!! Catastrophic cabin pressure failure acuers...u are now at 30.000 feet.
oxygen masks drops immediately, both in cabin and cockpit.

That is not an extreme pressure. It is well below its ceiling. A failed cabin pressure system, stll has a back-up. Oh, by the way, masks don't drop in the cockpit. They are donned (put on) when the flight crew REALIZES there is a problem.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
at 30.000 feet, without oxygen, u remain conscious for about 50-60 seconds

Try 30 seconds of useful consiousness.

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
the 2 pilots start to prepare a emergency descent

There is no preperation; you put on your mask, you pull the throttles to idle and initiate an emergency descent.

The rest of your post is pretty much gibberish and uninformed guesses but one more thing:

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
1 u dont immediatley notice if u receive oxygen with the masks

A mask is kept in 100% when in standby (hanging on the hook or in the box). If the pilots were not getting oxygen, they would know it instantly. They would draw a vacuum as soon as they inhaled.


My guess, based on what I've read and my experience (and in the absence of foul play): a pressurization failure that the crew failed to notice and rendered them unconscious. Someone did gain access to the flight deck, but was unable to control the airplane or use the radio for assistance. The plane ran out of fuel and crashed.

The unanswered question is (assuming my theory holds water, which it may not): 1)Why did the crew fail to recognize the problem? I think this is where you start and work your way back to the cause and forward to the result.


User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8486 times:

I just re-read my post and thought of something. On preflight, flight crews test their masks. Some operators require the regulator be put in EMERGENCY to test that function. EMERGENCY causes an uninterrupted flow of oxygen to the mask, versus a demand flow. The regulator is then returned to 100% and the mask stowed. What if the regulator was not returned to 100%?

I know we've caught plenty of aircraft on the line with empty oxygen bottles and a regulator still in EMERGENCY or somewhere between that and 100%.

Just a thought...


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3964 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8475 times:

Look, it would be quite helpful if you would read through the very in-depth threads on the crash that have built up over the last couple of days on a.net instead of forcing others to repeat everything here that has been written there.

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 12):
hmmm....lets see....how many FAs is there on a B737....at most 3-4.......F16 pilots spotted at least 2 persons in the cockpit.....that leaves us with a 50-75 % possibility that the FA with flight training was in the cockpit......and he was the new "captain" of course because of his flight training...

Amongst other things, if you had checked the other treads, you would already know that DNA samples from blood found in the cockpit section have shown that the F/A in question was indeed in the cockpit.

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 12):
however....wfv614.....where did u get the info that the FAs dident entered the cockpit before 11.30?? reports from the F16 pilots?

The other threads also contain a very detailed timeline what the F16 pilots saw and what the Boeing 737 did at what time, including the time of entry of the two F/A into the cockpit.

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 12):
oki.....i dont know anything about descent rate....then it took even more time...and my point is just that there was no time for the pilots to make a descent

The pilots don't need to make a descend. They simple have to turn a switch on the AP and to do that there is sufficient time when a decomp occurs on FL340 provided they react as they are trained. Anyway, as mentioned in the other threads, the oxygen masks popped out of their containers very early into the flight well below FL340. So the explanation must be quite different.


Can I suggest that you first check what information is already available by consulting this

Helios Crash - Interesting New Development (by Vfw614 Aug 17 2005 in Civil Aviation)

or this

Helios 737 Discussion, Part 3 (by GARPD Aug 15 2005 in Civil Aviation)

thread ?

Thanks.


User currently offlineQwerty From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8404 times:

Quoting 747Loadmaster (Reply 9):
Does the 737 door open in or out, because if it opens in and the pilot was on the floor in front of it maybe that's why it took them long to get in even if they know the code. Sat in a 737 jump seat many years ago and remember it is a small space there

Most cockpit doors open into the cabin, to avoid just this problem. 737 opens into cabin. You'll also notice that lav doors do the same. Household doors open in simply because hinges are vulnerable to a break-in.

Pilots will trust their O2. A pilot will not get up from his seat in an emergency, even if he thinks he has bad O2 because the flying he needs to do first will not have left him enough time to make the bad decision to leave the flight controls. Since he preflighted the emergency O2 system, he will trust it.

Autopilot will indeed fly a plane lower without much input. All a pilot needs to do is take a couple of seconds and adujst the altitude.

Finally, none of this makes any sense yet since there is no real reason that the pilots would not have descended the plane. Also, there are a few idiots, like myself, who doubt that anyone other than the pilots were ever in the cockpit after whatever problem (probably pressurization) actually happened.

[Edited 2005-08-20 22:04:40]

User currently offlineF14D4ever From United States of America, joined May 2005, 319 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

Quoting D5DBY (Thread starter):
this post is about the most logical explanation of the crash, its (sic) not a post to track how the plane where (sic) flying.....that we can leave to the investigation team, right? I mean altitude, route and stuff like that. im (sic) not a technican (sic) expert, so there is no need to point that out.

Your post is not the most logical explanation.

Fortunately we don't have to leave the pesky details regarding flight path to the investigation team, since they've already been posted in a preceding thread: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development, reply #100. You would do well to familiarize yourself with those details.

You disingenuously state that you're not a technical expert, as if to mitigate the facts of the case. Your theory demonstrates that, lacking technical expertise, one ought to gain at least a modicum of technical knowledge before utilizing one's keyboard.



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