Gilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3029 posts, RR: 2 Posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8319 times:
I was reading in Aircraft Illustrated magazine today (UK Edition), that British Airways has begun a strategic review of its long haul fleet and over the coming months or years will decide what aircrafts they want to update their fleet with.
The article was very brief but basically stated that BA would be considering the 777, 787 and 747(ER/Adv)
There was a brief line that stated BA would be discounting the A350 and they did not feel this was a viable long haul aircraft.
I am just interested in how BA can reach this decision, when the aircraft has not been officially launched and will boast similar range, costs and seating as the 787 and 777.
The A340 was not even mentioned!
The article also gave quite a frosty response to any potential A380 orders, by BA "shrugging its shoulders" as saying the aircraft is not even in service yet and will have to see how well it performs.
Is it me in thinking this... But does BA not trust aircrafts launched by Airbus and will not commit themselves until the aircrafts are flying? When they are happy to be launch customers for Boeing, as they were for 777 and 747-400 and potentially place an order for the 787 before it goes into service.
Im not after an A v B showdown in this thread but just interested in BA's thinking and strategy to new long haul aircraft.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8283 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter): The article also gave quite a frosty response to any potential A380 orders, by BA "shrugging its shoulders" as saying the aircraft is not even in service yet and will have to see how well it performs.
With all due respect that applies to the 787 as well- while the A380 is flying,the body of the first 787 still has to be assembled...
So considering a paper -aircraft rather than acknowledging the presensce of a plane like the A380 is somewhat "very BA.."
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8260 times:
>> The A340 was not even mentioned!
This should come as no real suprise. BA has a huge fleet of 777-200ER, which largely outperform the A343. A large fraction of BA's fleet is GE90-powered, so they could integrate the more capable 777-300ER/200LR without difficulty. Contrast this to the A345/A346 which would be a totally new fleet type, in addition to being less capable aircraft than their Boeing counterparts. It really doesn't make sense to include the A340 in any fleet evaluation at BA...
>> There was a brief line that stated BA would be discounting the A350 and they did not feel this was a viable long haul aircraft.
My guess would be they found A350 too big to replace BA's 763ER and too light to replace BA's (still young) 772ER.
>> The article also gave quite a frosty response to any potential A380 orders, by BA "shrugging its shoulders" as saying the aircraft is not even in service yet and will have to see how well it performs.
BA has had two incidents in recent memory where being a launch customer for a new type turned into a Bad Idea:
(1) The entry into service for the Ge90 777 was very rocky, and while opperating fine today, why be first when you can let other customers smooth out reliability?
(2) BA was one of many burned by the PW-powered A318, and later converted all of their order into other A320 types.
Perhaps it is a good thing that they have not ordered the A380 because it would have likely made strike three: Airbus has already announced a program delay that will affect (now disgruntled) customers like SQ and QF.
As to the question, why does BA not yet require the A380, their amount of LHR slots doesn't force them into larger units of capacity like some airlines. BA has many options in what increments of capacity they order.
>> Is it me in thinking this... But does BA not trust aircrafts launched by Airbus and will not commit themselves until the aircrafts are flying?
They havn't yet placed any orders for Boeing aircraft either, and their initial response to the 787 was much the same reaction they had to the A380. I don't see any double standard on BA's part.
>> When they are happy to be launch customers for Boeing, as they were for 777 and 747-400 and potentially place an order for the 787 before it goes into service.
Like I said above, a lot has changed in the last decade... some of it caused by being the launch customers of these types.
ArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8241 times:
BA seems to be on track to have an exclusively AIRBUS smallbody and BOEING widebody fleet.
To me it seems that they have a working strategy because the A320-family is cheaper (purchase price) and about equally capable than the 737-family.
They have a good widebody fleetmix: 747(=proven) ,777 (hate to say it but better than the airbus counterparts) and the 767 still has a lot of years in it and the most viable replacement for it is the 787.
AirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8201 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter): Is it me in thinking this... But does BA not trust aircrafts launched by Airbus and will not commit themselves until the aircrafts are flying? When they are happy to be launch customers for Boeing, as they were for 777 and 747-400 and potentially place an order for the 787 before it goes into service.
It's like auto companies - when you have a good experience with one you tend to look at that same company again when you are next in the market for a new auto. Can't blame BA for that one.
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8077 times:
>> Could you please elaborate on the A350 being "too light"? I thought an aircraft could never be too light...
Too light as in not being able to lift enough payload. Not "too light" as in low empty weight.
As WideBodyPhoto explained, the A350-900 will match the 772ER's passenger capacity, but as planned, cannot lift a corresponding amount of cargo over a givin distance. Reduced fuel burn does not necessarily compensate for reduced revenue, so the allure of the A359 depends on how the customer utilizes the 772ER.
A customer like US who only uses their widebodies across the Atlantic would benefit from an aircraft like the A359 because they do not need the full capability of the 772ER. A customer like CO who regularly opperates the 772ER at max payload between EWR-HKG would see no advantage with the A359.
Glom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7871 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 24): I have my doubts that BA would be so stupid and inform Boeing through Aircraft Illustrated that they have no serious competition.....
My thoughts exactly. I think the Boeings are definite favourites in this race, but BA isn't going to want to let on that easily. They want Airbus to make so good offers to force Boeing to make good offers.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13211 posts, RR: 77
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7829 times:
Being as BA won't be buying anything for probably 2-3 more years, a lot can change.
However, I get the impression that 787 is certain.
A380, different people at BA say different things about that.
My impression is that it won't be in the first wave of any new fleet renewal, but everyone I've spoken to thinks an eventual BA A380 order is inevitable.
2012 might yet have tipped the balance slightly towards A380, if only in the form of a possible lease, a sort of 'suck it and see' approach.
(On a far bigger numbers scale, that's how AA got into the MD-80).
But all this is very preliminary, a lot of serious evaluation (which we are not at yet) lies ahead.
Right, that out of the way, here is what I'd like to see.
R/R B787, replaces 767, 757, complements 777, more than one version of it then.
More A319/320, get rid of remaining 737-300/400/500, also the original legacy and very early production A320's built for BCAL, so an airframe type exited, as well as an engine (CFM-56).
A380, not one for one replacing 747-400, not even close in fact, but LHR, for all BA's dominance, is still fundamentally slot restrained, pax numbers are climbing.
I could see 15-20 A380's, so scratch the older 747-400's.
We happily operated 747-100's for over 25 years, so remaining 747-400's built in the mid/late 1990's have plenty of time left, all one careful owner too, don't knock it!
I should now reveal a personal beef, I think GE's management of the former BA engine overhaul facility in Wales, with decreasing quality, that crippling shut-down last year, means that BA should avoid, as much as possible, doing new business with GE, this is not about the engines themselves however.
BA keep letting themselves get let down by contractors, it aint just the caterers either!
Time to make a stand.
In any case, my simple minded view is that if you are going to buy a new 4 engine long hauler, go for the all new (though well proven by the time BA buy), not the warmed up old model, good for it's target market the 747ADV will no doubt be.
(Plus that GE exclusivity rankles, I know why, limited market and all that, but still, with 4 engines on each airframe, an increasingly rare occurrence, R/R should also have been allowed on board, unless the market is just so limited, which in my view is a question mark over the whole project).
David_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7379 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7812 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4): (2) BA was one of many burned by the PW-powered A318, and later converted all of their order into other A320 types.
Burned by the A318? Let's try the "Future Size and Shape" programme which saw them redeploy their fleet. The A318s were to be used at MAN + BHX, however, with the FSS plan, the 737s at MAN were flung to LGW, the A319s at BHX were sent to LHR, the RJ100s at LGW were sent to MAN + BHX and some LHR 737s sent to LGW. The focus was on single-fleet types for the short-haul at LHR (the A320 family) and LGW (the 737 family); as there was no need for a small Airbus at LHR, they converted their A318 order to a lesser amount of A321s.
Planesarecool From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 4124 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7757 times:
Why would they be considering anything yet anyway? Their oldest B777 is just 9 years old, and their newest is less than 4 years old. And their oldest B747 in service at the moment is just 16 years old, with the youngest being 6 year old.
Also they're just upgrading most of their B767's into long-haul dusk formation, so they obviously have no intention of replacing them in the next few years. Plus, the oldest of their B767's has only been in service 15 years, and the newest, just 7.
I'm sure they'd like to see their oldest B747's through at least 25 years before replacing them.
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7695 times:
BA don't need to make any decision at the moment, but a lot will depend on Willie Walsh when he takes over. He will probably be the guy in the important office when the time comes to start looking at an order.
As for aircraft types, the A350 strikes me as being too much plane for 767 routes and also too much of an overlap with the existing 772 fleet. BA may want to keep its fleet profile at a similar size, so a direct replacement for the 763 by the 788 would be ideal for them without having to upscale with an A350.
The 763 suits many routes BA operates which are a bit too thin or short for a 772, so an A350 would not be ideal. The similar size, better cargo and increased range of the 788 could fit BA like a glove.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13211 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7669 times:
Don't expect ANY new BA deliveries before 2010.
Now think of the bandwidth this interesting, but common and still very speculative subject, will use up in the the interim, and weep!
By the time BA order any 787's (which is the only type that we can say with certainty is a front runner), it will have flown, probably even be entering service.
Not only the innovations, economies this type promises, but the range of versions across the 787 range.
BA will be very attracted by that, I suspect that more than anything is the reason for BA being cool on the A350, plus the Airbus has only fairly recently been properly defined, 787 will fit BA's range of requirements/types to be replaced, better.
I could stir the pot and say that if I (and not only me, not that I'm in any position of authority) think better to go for all new with A380 rather than modernized older 747, that cuts across to 787/A350.
But I'm sure A350 will work out for Airbus, if only to prevent Boeing total dominance is this huge sector, not the A330 is fininished yet, but post 787/A350, I bet any A330's sold are cargo versions as well as military, (RAF. RAAF, probably French AF in time as well as others, though probably not the USAF).
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7542 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7626 times:
Will the 2012 London Olympics influence the timing of a BA order for new wide bodies and their required delivery dates? Seems to me that around August 2012 a few new wide bodies in the BA fleet could be very useful and not just on long haul flights with the slot constraints at LHR. Then BA could start retiring the replaced aircraft once the Olympic passenger 'bulge' has past.
: >> Burned by the A318? Let's try the "Future Size and Shape" programme which saw them redeploy their fleet An event set in motion by PW's failure and
: I agree, do you see a joint order with other Oneworld alliance carriers such as EI to get a large discount? Cheers egmcman
: I'm still waiting for them to announce the Concorde replacement !!
: Good question - I've seen quite a few comments in other threads about Chinese airlines ordering planes to be delivered in time for the 2008 Olympics.
: 13th Feb 2002, BA reveal FSS: "A major part of the fleet simplification plan involves the transfer of 16 RJ100s based at Gatwick to the airline’s r
: Some options, but nowhere near 100. Whitehatter is correct, FSS drove the Airbus order change, though avoiding adding a new airframe sub-type and whol
: No surprise to me. While the A380 is certainly an exception (the first one), BA has always favored Boeing for their long-haul operations. Perhaps thei
: I read an article in the finacial times a couple of weeks ago and it says that BA is considering and leaning across towards the A380. filton216
: Filton216, that article you read proves that you cannot rule A380 in or out at BA, it's just far too soon. Others will quote BA sources saying A380 is
: I am just wondering and no one has brought this up yet but how much of this could be politically motivated. I mean BA is the flag ship carrier of the
: Forget all these imagined political pressures on BA to buy this, or buy that. I don't think you can look at BA procurement over the past 20 years and
: I understand why... But it seems I cannot reflect on this here on airliners.net... I love all aircraft, but from certain business points of view, I ca
: Someone once said 'BA' was short for 'Boeing Always'. Guess that isn't so true when you look at their narrowbody fleet... Only time will tell.
: 1. they will get a reletively good deal because they already have a lot of boeings. 2. political relations
: I agree, but I'm thinking it will be more like 2012 before any new WBs are ordered, and 2 years later before they are delivered. I would guess the ne
: Why Will BA Not Consider The A350? Perhaps it could be because it may not be able to accommodate flat bed business class seating that well, and they a
41 David L
: I stand corrected again - lucky I'm not counting. That's what guaranteed I was was going to be wrong. What I was really getting at was that, just bec
: We won't want to add a new type when not needed, so replacements for old 737's will be more Airbus. Anything else would be perverse and totally fly in
: Then couldn't the same argument be said for the B-737NGs? I agree, but wouldn't BA's "wait and see how it performs with other airlines" policy push b
: I think you'll find the Airbus's are at LHR only, with the occasional one moved to LGW to cover short term requirements such as 737 maintenance. Seni
: I don't see this 'separate base' at LGW carrying on much longer, Walsh says he will focus on shorthaul, if fleet renewal is part of it then remaining
: Since Airbus "officially" still has every model they ever built in production, I think you will still be able to order the A-330-200 25 years from no
: You assume that BA (or any airline) always want to replace models on a one-for-one, like-for-like basis. Clearly, that isn't true. BA only have 13 75
: None - BA is a NON-STATE OWNED air carrier that does not have to accede to any government whims on fleet purchases.
: I think Airbus put down an "arrogant" proposal on BA's last A380 RFI & they hate it.. something along the lines of "Please contact us if we can help
: Source please. This sound nothing more than a bitter attack against an Airline with the common sense to sit and wait.
: A source for what I think? I'll work on that.. On the A350 for BA, even the A350-800 seems a bit large to complement the large 777-200 fleet. The B78
: i think they wont because they only have short-haul airbuses and there entire long haul fleet is boeing. long-haul fleet:747-400, 777-200, 767-300. if