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Will South African Consider The 773ER And 747 ADV?  
User currently offlineGeorgiabill From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 580 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4394 times:
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I have read a few threads which eluded to the fact SAA might not be happy with the performance of their A345's? If this is the case do you think SAA might consider buying the 773ER or 747ADV? Also could the 787 be in SAA's future?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3571 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4379 times:

I think they will not buy the 747 ADV or the 777ER. The A340 suits their needs, and they might even order the A380 soon.

But they might ask Boeing for these airframes in order to get a better price from Airbus.

I am tired of reading rumours that airlines are unhappy with their A340s. It might be that there are problems, but if it was a bad airplane, LH had not ordered more, neither had Virgin. And even if they are unhappy, remember that SAA even uses A340-200s which they got from LH, an airplane which almost nobody else uses, so it is very doubtful for me that they will use something else...

Michael


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12141 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4369 times:

They may have a few options here. SAA could, as you suggest consider buying the B-777-300ER to replace the A-340-500s. But, I really don't see them stepping up all the way to a B-747-ADV for the A-340-500 replacement aircraft. They might consider the B-787 as the A-340-500 replacement, too. The other option that is available is to work with Airbus to fix what isn't right for them with the A-340-500s

User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
They may have a few options here. SAA could, as you suggest consider buying the B-777-300ER to replace the A-340-500s. But, I really don't see them stepping up all the way to a B-747-ADV for the A-340-500 replacement aircraft. They might consider the B-787 as the A-340-500 replacement, too. The other option that is available is to work with Airbus to fix what isn't right for them with the A-340-500s

SAA operate the A342, A343 and A346. Not an A345 to be found in their fleet.



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

SAA operates the 346, not the 345.

SAA has already placed and cancelled one order for the 772. I read somewhere that they wanted a 4-engine type for hot-and-high Johannesburg, so I doubt they will order the 773.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13195 posts, RR: 77
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4345 times:

At LHR you have 3 SAA 747's a day in here, though sometimes you do see the A340-200.
Since they are slot limited, since pax levels between the UK and South Africa are so strong (they are on BA too), I'd say A380 has a better then even chance here, when SAA come to order.


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
I am tired of reading rumours that airlines are unhappy with their A340s. It might be that there are problems, but if it was a bad airplane, LH had not ordered more, neither had Virgin. And even if they are unhappy, remember that SAA even uses A340-200s which they got from LH, an airplane which almost nobody else uses, so it is very doubtful for me that they will use something else...

Airlines ordering more aicraft is not neccessarily a sign that they are totaly happy with it. Its more likely that the expense of changing to another fleet type is more expensive that continuing with the one you have.

For example: A recent Flight International article highlighted quite a few problems with the aircraft and Virgins dissatisfaction with it as it was not what Airbus said it would be.
But as VS were now committed to it, there's not much sense in swapping to another type.

Also, I have it on good authority that LH will not have to pay for 2 of the A346s in their second batch. As VS will not pay for 4 or 5 of the additional 26 they ordered. Whether or not this is true I cannot say... and before anyone jumps me, there is no evidence against it either.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4332 times:

Do they really need the A 380?

Umm..... I would say they might consider the B 747 Advanced.

Just my 2 cents.


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4325 times:

IIRC, LHR is the only real slot restricted airport SAA operate to.
And they already have the slots they need.

Would it make sense to purchase the A380 when its potential use would be for only one route?



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4318 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 7):
Do they really need the A 380?

Umm..... I would say they might consider the B 747 Advanced.

Yes they do need the A380. The 747 Advanced would not deliver the incremental capacity increase that SAA need on their key slot-restricted routes.

As various other people on this board have said time and again, the loads on the UK - South Africa flights are very high, and as SAA cannot secure additional slots at Heathrow, the only way to grow is with a larger aircraft. The A380 is the only aircraft available, or likely to be available in the near future, that delivers a worthwhile capacity increase for SAA.

Who knows, maybe SAA would consider the 747A for other routes... but at the moment, the airline seems to be embarking on a policy of switching over to an all-Airbus fleet... although things can and do change. Plus, SAA's fleet planning has an unusual history - witness the A320s to B738 to A320 debacle.



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4265 times:
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Quoting EGNR (Reply 9):
The A380 is the only aircraft available, or likely to be available in the near future, that delivers a worthwhile capacity increase for SAA.

Who knows, maybe SAA would consider the 747A for other routes... but at the moment, the airline seems to be embarking on a policy of switching over to an all-Airbus fleet... although things can and do change. Plus, SAA's fleet planning has an unusual history - witness the A320s to B738 to A320 debacle.

IIRC SA Management has hinted their desire to lease A380's and expressed interest in the B787. At this stage, IMHO they should rather concentrate on making serious money first and stop wasting our tax money.

SAA will not operate an all Airbus-fleet in the near future. The B744's are quite busy and are used to LHR, IAD, LOS, LAD and CPT (domestic flights). The 738's will also be on South African soil for quite a while, as the A320 order has been cancelled.

As I have said on this forum before, never use the word "NEVER" when you are talking about SAA. It is a government owned airline and politicians can be extremely fickle.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4238 times:

How much are they still trying to adhere to the all-airbus policy? (Well it's not a policy, more of a commonality drive I guess)

If they are, I would've thought that new Boeing heavies aren't likely to be seen in the SA livery.


User currently offlineFlydubai From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

I think that SAA should go for 4 A380's to do the LHR route. They may even purchase a few 773ER's, but I feel that there next big buy will be the 787-8. It would suite SAA's needs perfectly. Its a mid to long range aircraft which is fuel efficient and can hold just the right amount of PAX for just about all of their international destinations. It would also provide them with the possibility of adding more flights to South Asia, North America, and Europe.

Possible future fleet (long hall)  Wink
A380-800 4
777-300ER 6
787-800 18

Hamzah  Smile


User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4173 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 4):
SAA has already placed and cancelled one order for the 772. I read somewhere that they wanted a 4-engine type for hot-and-high Johannesburg, so I doubt they will order the 773.

I have heard this before. Why does the A340 have the hot and high advantage ? is it because of the engine type? I think one of the reaons SAA started to switch from 747s to A340 was because of this also.


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4168 times:
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Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 11):
How much are they still trying to adhere to the all-airbus policy?

Well if they are even looking or thinking about the B787, their commonality pitch is out the window. The flavor of the moment however, being their appeal against the Competition Commissions fine of R45 million (Rand) for commissions they paid to travel agents, etc.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3571 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 13):
I have heard this before. Why does the A340 have the hot and high advantage ? is it because of the engine type? I think one of the reaons SAA started to switch from 747s to A340 was because of this also.

It is because the A340-300 has the best climb rate of all airliners around Big grin

I don't know, but didn't one 777 blow an engine while they did a presentation for SAA some years ago?

Michael


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4139 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 13):
I have heard this before. Why does the A340 have the hot and high advantage ? is it because of the engine type? I think one of the reaons SAA started to switch from 747s to A340 was because of this also.

Both A + B were in JNB pitching their products to replace SA's Classic longhaul fleet (74L's, 742's and 743's). IIRC the 777 blew an engine, Airbus swooped in with an amazing sweet deal and we as ordinary taxpayers learned about the switch to an all Airbus fleet on the front pages of the morning newspapers.

Want more info about how the SA Airbus fleet is doing in South Africa? Just ask fellow member Gigneil, he will be able to tell you in detail.  Smile


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4048 times:

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 13):
Why does the A340 have the hot and high advantage ?

Does it? What's the performance out of JNB like? Is this the reason some of their transatlantic flights route through CPT?


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4020 times:

>> I don't know, but didn't one 777 blow an engine while they did a presentation for SAA some years ago?

An engine failed while taxing off the runway. Not an impressive display by any means.

SAA even had the 772ER on order at one point, but when the PW4098 engine showed major fuel burn shortcomings, the order was cancelled.

>> IIRC the 777 blew an engine, Airbus swooped in with an amazing sweet deal

The engine failure did not give Airbus window of opportunity if that's what you are suggesting. The real opportunity came when Boeing was unable to get them to keep their PW-powered 777 commitment. The engine failure was simply bad PR, like the A346 prototype suffering a brake disentigration.

>> I have heard this before. Why does the A340 have the hot and high advantage ? is it because of the engine type?

When the 773ER was early in it's conceptual phase (still the 777-X), Boeing was struggling very much with the problem of take-off performance. It was questionable if Boeing would really get super-high thrust engines in the 110-120 klbf range, which meant options such as a thrust-providing APU were considered. Airlines balked at that for obvious reasons.

Boeing was able to compensate for this problem via an innovative "semi-levered" landing gear. A hydraulic actuator allows the airplane to ride the landing gear in a way that raises the angle of attack, allowing the wings to produce more lift.



In the end, Boeing was able to get engines of adequet thrust, and with the semi-levered landing gear, the 773ER is on par with other longhaul airplanes. The A346 does slightly beat the 773ER in take-off performance, though the possibility of a GE90-115B uprate (which is within the demonstrated capability of the engine) would negate this advantage, if a customer so desired it.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 8):
Would it make sense to purchase the A380 when its potential use would be for only one route?

Current JNB-LHR and CPT-LHR services involve six aircraft, so it would make sense to order the A380 for the London hops exclusively.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks ago) and read 3976 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
But they might ask Boeing for these airframes in order to get a better price from Airbus.

OR dare to imagine that they ask Boeing for a price and actually buy Boeing?!  crazy  (OH wait, then that would assume A isn't as good as B and then where would we be?!)  hissyfit 

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
The A346 does slightly beat the 773ER in take-off performance, though the possibility of a GE90-115B uprate (which is within the demonstrated capability of the engine) would negate this advantage, if a customer so desired it.

And does it all on two less engines - marvel the concept!  highfive  Still, with the 773ER's max thrust of 230,600 lbs. to the A346's 224,500lbs., a longer wingspan and slightly lower MTOW, I don't see any advantage for the A346. What do you base your assertations from?

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 15):
It is because the A340-300 has the best climb rate of all airliners around

With just 4 CFM-56's... I'm not buying that. I think a 717 might have something to say about that to name just a few.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 15):
I don't know, but didn't one 777 blow an engine while they did a presentation for SAA some years ago?

Sounds to me why Boeing has gone (GE) engine specific on their latest 777 variants.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks ago) and read 3958 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 20):
OH wait, then that would assume A isn't as good as B and then where would we be?

What an unnecessary comment...  thumbsdown 

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 20):
With just 4 CFM-56's... I'm not buying that. I think a 717 might have something to say about that to name just a few.

It was a joke...  Yeah sure


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks ago) and read 3951 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 19):
Current JNB-LHR and CPT-LHR services involve six aircraft, so it would make sense to order the A380 for the London hops exclusively.

How do you know SAA would prefer capacity over frequency?
Or are you proposong they'll replace the 6 current aircraft with 6 A380s, effectivley doubling the capacity?



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 22):
How do you know SAA would prefer capacity over frequency?

Quite a simple reason: frequency is simply not an option, the bilaterals between South Africa and the UK, not to mention slots at LHR, are maxed out.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 22):
How do you know SAA would prefer capacity over frequency?

They would prefer more frequencies any day, but tell me how to realize that in Heathrow?

Quoting GARPD (Reply 22):
Or are you proposong they'll replace the 6 current aircraft with 6 A380s, effectivley doubling the capacity?

Compared to their current B744 layout it would not be a doubling. However, the significant capacity growth would be required in some years when they can't get new slots.


Regards
Udo


25 Leskova : It has to do with safety: in the event of an engine failure, the A340-600 still has, using your numbers, 168,375lbs available, while the B777-300ER i
26 SA7700 : Maybe to some extent Udo (I may be way off course here). I honestly don't know what the average load factor on SA's LHR flights are, it must be good
27 ZSOFN : I remember trying to get a last minute ticket at LHR for JNB and I was told SA didn't have a single free seat for the next 3 months. Unless they were
28 ZSOFN : Mere speculation but I believe that the route has a lot of business and regular travellers and so perhaps related to freq flyer miles? SA nationals m
29 Udo : I guess VS suffers from not having the feed like BA or SA. That's also one reason why the LHR-HKG-SYD route is not doing well. Btw, VS has always upg
30 SA7700 : That would depend on the season you were travelling in. With regards to the 3 months, that seems a tad over the top. I believe they were lying to you
31 Post contains links SA7700 : VS is now codesharing with SA and is part of SAA's Voyager FF program. The relationship with CE has ended. http://ww4.flysaa.com/en/en_content_...a_p
32 ZSOFN : Thanks for the info SA7700. It's easy to get out of touch with these things...
33 GARPD : Great answer.... just what I was looking for, cheers
34 United Airline : I suppose the B 744s will be in service for long time to come....
35 Post contains images AirRyan : My apologies, I forgot the sarcastic Yeah, and I could tell that through the way you spelled the words! I was going to say, Airbus have some the slow
36 Leskova : It is a factor, and it is a significant one, even if only in some scenarios; it is (or was? not sure if that's been changed already) also a factor in
37 Udo : Would be interesting to hear more details of these "stories"... Regards Udo
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