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Can A PPL Land An Airliner?  
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8542 times:
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OK, this is an entirely hypothetical question that has come to my mind while reading all the crash threads on this forum. I am a PPL myself and fly single-engine piston airplanes.

My question for the ATPLs out there: if you sit a PPL with my knowledge at the controls of an airliner (B737, A320 or similar) while at cruise altitude, would that PPL be able to land the plane in a survivable manner?

I tried to answer this myself and came up with this:
- if the plane has autoland capabilities, having someone on the radio who explains how to program the AP would be about everything that is needed to make a safe landing
- if the plane has no autoland capabilities, "physical" capacity by the pilot is needed to land, so this would be more difficult, and I really have no clue about whether this would work or not

Again, this is in a hypothetical and ideal environment, not where the pilots are unconcious and/or something on the plane is broken, but really in a plane where the pilots get up, walk out and tell someone "OK, you fly, have fun".

Anyone?  Smile

-Manuel


Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8508 times:

The question for me is actually not the PPL and the ATPL. The problems here go much more in the direction how you already describe them. The thing is, you are probably used to fly single engine piston aircraft. You are not used to the weight and the speed of the "big" one. You will probably not find the switches as you are used to the kind of systems (radios, Nav, GPS's) as used in general aviation. So you will need an introduction as when you are going to transition any kind of small aircraft, to find out what is where and how you use it.
In a large plane you will configurate earlier. You won't know those speeds and limitations and fight a lot with such things. But again, if you pull it, it goes up and when you push, it goes down  Wink Just don't do that to brisk, it may react the way you won't expect.
The most important would be to keep "the blue" up and the "brown down" in regard to your ADI. Then it may either have a AOA or a stall protection system. If you know to handle with those, it already helps a lot.
But if you like to try, Swiss is renting out their simulators to people as you, and you can try. It is not that expensive, it comes to less than 1'000 sFr. incl. the instructor.
A while ago, SAT or RTL - I don't remember exactly - tried to put some "Microsoft Pilots" in a Lufthansa simulator. As they never learned to fly, they violated quite a bunch of rules and overstressed several parts of the plane, but they brought it to the runway. So it could work  Wink


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8483 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 1):
But if you like to try, Swiss is renting out their simulators to people as you, and you can try.

I tried calling Swiss and SAT, but I'm being told that they're not offering this anymore. Otherwise I would have tried  Smile. I think I'll try next time I go to Berlin at an LH training center: they are still offering it.

-Manuel



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8407 times:

I'm sure that it would be possible for a PPL pilot with no multi-engine or IFR ratings to safely land a B737, but I wouldn't want to bet my money on it. Don't forget, the landing speed on a B737 is quite a bit faster then the cruising speed in a C172. Things happen a hell of a lot faster and you need to be well ahead of the aircraft.

I remember there being an article about this subject in "Flying" magazine many years ago. They took a bunch of PPL pilots with various experience, sat them in a sim and most of them didn't make it.

As for myself, I've got my PPL and multi-engine rating plus some IFR experience and I'd love to give it a shot. Would be lots of fun (in a sim of course).



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8348 times:

At a time where there were no computers, I had a ppl, a degree in electronic engineering (incl. aviation and marine radiocomms and navaids), and hundreds of hours as a very attentive (flying) observer on the decks of 737-707-720-A300s.
Knowing how to operate the radios and navaids, and quite familiar with AP and settings/configuration/speeds, I would have rated my chances at landing in one piece reasonably close to the target at 90%+ with help from a pilot (on the radio), around 70% without (external) pilot inputs.
(all of this supposes a plane in "normal" condition, no emergencies around)


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8324 times:

the single greatest difficulty of moving into airplanes that are faster and more advanced than what you are used to flying is being able to 'stay ahead' of the airplane. there are a few reasons for this

1. more mass...bigger airplanes are heavier (obviously) which creates a lot more kinetic and potential energy.

2. faster...bigger airplanes are made to go faster than little ones (another obvious thing). In fact, bigger airplanes (such as the 737, which i am most familiar with) don't like to slow down or descend. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of knowledge to make a 737 descend at the proper (and safe) descent profile. Just pointing the nose down and decreasing the throttle a bit isn't going to make it work the same way as a 172.

3. less maneuverable...when landing, all adjustments require a finer touch...anticipation of the aircraft is the key and if you start to get behind the airplane on the approach, the more and more you fall behind the closer you get to the ground (thats a bad thing).

My uncle flew A300's for years for FedEx and he told me that there were times even he felt a little overwhelmed (as a Captain) with how things were turning out and was extremely thankful that he had an F/O with him to throw around other ideas and offer suggestions and insights. While landing a big airplane as as Private Pilot (or even as a microsoft pilot) is possible, it would be an extremely daunting challenge.

of course, whenever i fly commercially there is always a moment where i sit back in my seat and think "hmm...i wonder if im the only other pilot on this airplane...what if the captain and f/o both fall ill and they need someone to fly the airplane...*imagining*

the f/a walks down the aisle asking quietly if anyone is a pilot...i look around and raise my hand "yes ma'am im a pilot" and she tells me the f/o is a little under the weather and the captain needs some assistance with the radio's...so she leads me up to the cockpit only to find the captain and the f/o are both extremely sick... "you're going to have to land this airplane" she tells me..."well that shouldn't be a problem ma'am, i have a commercial pilots license"...so i sit back in the left seat and flex my right hand around the throttles, my left hand around the yoke, and easing back on power, descending through the clouds, talking to center, approach and finally tower, lowering the gear and flaps so precisely, making adjustments as needed, and finally bringing the aircraft gently onto the runway in a fit of aeronautic precision...the tower asking if we can taxi or need a tow...."hmmm...i think we can taxi, where do you want us?"...bringing it up to the gate and parking perfectly, opening the cockpit door and hearing the roar of the all the cheering passengers, smiling to myself thinking "that was pretty easy" invisioning the media circus...the headlines 'Handsome College Student Saves Planeload of Passengers in Heroic Feat of Aeronautic Genius', the inevitable book deal, the latenight talk show apperences, and of course the blockbuster movie with Jake Gillenhall playing myself...

"sir, could you please move your feet i am trying to get through the aisle"...and i am startled back to reality by the anxious F/A trying to serve her beverage cart...*sigh*



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8224 times:

I think its just a game of numbers, like it is with any type of aircraft. You need to know the V-speeds in order to execute any operation with the aircraft. If you know the max landing speeds and the proper interval with flaps, my grandma could land an airliner. With a PPL, you've already demonstrated that you have the needed hand-eye coordination. So, if you have someone that can talk you through the landing with the appropriate speeds and correct operation of instruments, like a knowledgable ATC controller or airframe expert brought in to the control facility, then its very likely that you could land it. You might not have a Top Gun landing on the centerline, but its definitely possible to get the aircraft down in one piece, relatively safely.

Hope this helps. Cheers!  Big grin



Crye me a river
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8187 times:

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 4):
At a time where there were no computers, I had a ppl, a degree in electronic engineering (incl. aviation and marine radiocomms and navaids), and hundreds of hours as a very attentive (flying) observer on the decks of 737-707-720-A300s.
Knowing how to operate the radios and navaids, and quite familiar with AP and settings/configuration/speeds, I would have rated my chances at landing in one piece reasonably close to the target at 90%+ with help from a pilot (on the radio), around 70% without (external) pilot inputs.
(all of this supposes a plane in "normal" condition, no emergencies around)

Sure you could. The "Oh $H!^" factor alone would render most incapable. Knowing how to use the autopilot (you sure you know how? Learning it is not as easy as watching someone else push buttons) and having a runway and airplane that can autoland, maybe you could do it. Most airports can not take an autoland. Then the excrement would hit the fan.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6):
I think its just a game of numbers, like it is with any type of aircraft. You need to know the V-speeds in order to execute any operation with the aircraft. If you know the max landing speeds and the proper interval with flaps, my grandma could land an airliner.

Knowing the numbers is not enough. Everybody can (and most did) know the numbers when they start learning how to fly. APPLYING those numbers is the hard part. Under pressure they forget, and that's with an instructor sitting next to them, not alone in an airliner flight deck with 150 people behind them with their lives depending on it. Even if they don't forget, you still have to make the airplane follow those numbers, and it's not that easy if you've never done it before. Even in a 172.



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8147 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 7):
Knowing the numbers is not enough. Everybody can (and most did) know the numbers when they start learning how to fly. APPLYING those numbers is the hard part. Under pressure they forget, and that's with an instructor sitting next to them, not alone in an airliner flight deck with 150 people behind them with their lives depending on it. Even if they don't forget, you still have to make the airplane follow those numbers, and it's not that easy if you've never done it before. Even in a 172.

Exactly. If you're used to flying a C172 with an average landing speed of 70 KIAS, I couldn't imagine it being easy to keep a relatively stable approach at 130-140 KIAS.

Mind you, in an extreme situation (i.e.: both pilots incapacitated) I think having someone with at least some piloting experience would be better then nothing.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8129 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 7):
Even if they don't forget, you still have to make the airplane follow those numbers, and it's not that easy if you've never done it before.

Oh, that's horse shi*. The airplane ALWAYS does exactly what we want it to, every single time!  Big grin

Yes, I agree. I think my explanation was based more on the premise that the person attempting to land it was relatively calm and was focused; not likely in the given situation. So, I agree.

Cheers!  Big grin



Crye me a river
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8128 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6):
I think its just a game of numbers, like it is with any type of aircraft. You need to know the V-speeds in order to execute any operation with the aircraft. If you know the max landing speeds and the proper interval with flaps, my grandma could land an airliner. With a PPL, you've already demonstrated that you have the needed hand-eye coordination. So, if you have someone that can talk you through the landing with the appropriate speeds and correct operation of instruments, like a knowledgable ATC controller or airframe expert brought in to the control facility, then its very likely that you could land it. You might not have a Top Gun landing on the centerline, but its definitely possible to get the aircraft down in one piece, relatively safely.

Huhhhhh if it was that simple, Flight Instructor would be the most easy job in the world and big schools like Flight Safety International would soon run out of work!


User currently offlineDerik737 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 333 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8115 times:

If the airplane had HUD and you were able to contact someone who could give you quick instruction on the HUD (basically keep the little ball inside the big ball and keep the speed que centered) and walk you through some other basics, you could most likely have a picture perfect landing.

I've seen people in the sim who have no flying experience make beautiful landings with it.

I personally made it through the L1011 windshear accident and landed in the sim. I didn't know what the situation was until after I landed and boy was I amazed when they told me what I had just flown through.


User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8112 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Have they released how much training the Helios f/a had and on what now that they know he was in the cockpit as the F-16 pilot observed? Was their any radio contact with the f/a?


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8089 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 10):
Huhhhhh if it was that simple, Flight Instructor would be the most easy job in the world and big schools like Flight Safety International would soon run out of work!

Geez, I think I'm going to be explaining myself for a while with this.

The question was not if a PPL could land a plane with a perfect landing and have everyone on board nice and comfortable along the way. The question was if its POSSIBLE. My point was, just as someone else has said, that having a PPL would be a whole hell of a lot better while trying to operate this thing than having Aunt Erma up there with her only knowledge of aviation based around A&E's Airline show. Yes, its going to be difficult as all get out, but its very possible and is a scenario that has better chances of succeeding than trying to explain aerodynamical concepts to someone who's never been at the controls.

Obviously, a PPL isn't going to land you a job with an airline in the seat of 737. That's why you have to have a lot more education and testing. So, its pretty clear that it would be a tough undertaking and not something that most people would hope to accomplish on their daily tasks. But, if both pilots are gone and only one person on the plane has a PPL out of a mass of people who know nothing about it, I would bet that your chances of surviving are must higher with the PPL driving the plane rather than someone else or just leaving it alone. And no, those higher chances don't mean guaranteed success but are more of a 'best of the worst' type concept.

So, a CE-172 isn't the same as a 737?  Big grin Hmmm.



Crye me a river
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8041 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 13):
Obviously, a PPL isn't going to land you a job with an airline in the seat of 737

This entire thread is speculation and would depend on each circumstance. It is not black and white.

This belongs in polls and preferences not in civial aviation.


User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 14):
This belongs in polls and preferences not in civial aviation.

That's debatable too. But, if it continues the way its going, I would have to agree.



Crye me a river
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7991 times:

AUTO-land. Get on the horn with ATC, punch a few buttons, deploy gear, flaps, and breaks. IMHO, anyone could do it given proper instructions. Often times in bad weather or for test purposes (required after so many cycles) it's done by the pilots themselves.

Regards.


User currently offlineAtomother From United States of America, joined May 1999, 440 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7982 times:

Any idiot can fly a plane when the conditions are clear blue and a million and everything works as planned. When an emergency happens and things start to not work properly in IMC is the true measurement of a pilot's training and abilities.

And to answer your question, shortly after I got my Private I hopped into an A319 sim at CAE and survived a few landings using up alot of runway. When things started to fail though I was as good as dead. Add to that, a microburst, and some IMC and you get a dead man's spiral to the ground.


User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7912 times:

No, a Private Pilots License can't land a plane. It's a piece of paper.
 duck 


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7888 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 18):
No, a Private Pilots License can't land a plane. It's a piece of paper.

What, you didn't know that the newest Airbus has a scanner that reads the license, then decides if it can land or not based on that? Big grin You see, a piece of paper can land a plane  Smile



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7874 times:

Well I'll be....

Guess I've been proven wrong!


User currently offlineGlydrflyr From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7869 times:

About a dozen years ago, I had an opportunity to land a full motion B-707 (KC135) sim at an Air Force base. At the time, my PPL was 35 years old, and had no baggage like multis or commercial, but I was current with my instrument rating. Had never flown anything bigger than a C-210. The first landing, for which I still have the computer trace, was at night in the rain, but I kept the bird on the runway. The touchdown was quite positive, and the computer board operator said we would need new tires! The 2nd and 3rd landings, into Hong Kong (Kai Tek) and Newark were daylight VFR, with no unusual conditions, and were good enough to draw praise from the Air Force pilots watching and waiting for the crash. Of course, I was under no external pressures such as climbing over the pilots to get to the controls or similar natural or man made disasters. Could I do it again today? Dunno, but if anybody has a full motion sim, I'm open for invitations to come and play!

PS: Before all this got started, one of the rated captains for the KC-135 gave me a crash course in button and switch operation and location, then stood by in case my sieve like brain flushed all the info out.



if ya gotta crash, hit something soft and cheap!
User currently offlineJMJAirways From Sweden, joined Apr 2005, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7846 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 14):
This entire thread is speculation and would depend on each circumstance. It is not black and white.

You'v said it all!

Best regards



I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
User currently offlinePilatusguy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7835 times:

Well, I've done a couple of landings in a A320 sim at Swiss(air) and it worked out. Everybody survived and the plane was still ok, but some people's back probably hurt  Smile

I think if you're somewhat familiar with how an airplane works and can use the radio it shouldn't be the problem. If you're familiar with Navigating and using the autopilot it's even better...
when I was there we positioned ourselfs at (I guess) at FL150 and did a couple of approaches into ZRH's RWY 16 (the longest one). I used the A/P and the charts... was awesome!


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7839 times:

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 21):
The 2nd and 3rd landings, into Hong Kong (Kai Tek) and Newark were daylight VFR,

Wow, that's got to be a lifetime goal - Kai Tak in a full motion simulator!

The other night they had a segment with the FOXsports SouthWest commentator was in the left seat of a CO 777 and even he landed it fine. Now I'd like to think that if the sim is to offer any sort of realistic positives that the level of realism can only be lowered so much (unlike MSFS) and while the conditions might have been day VFR with little wind, these new airplanes are not near as hard to fly as their predecessors. Flying a C-152 is a lot more physically challenging than say punching the A/P or manipulating a FBW sidestick of an Airbus!


25 N867BX : Ted Striker did it reasonably well all things considered.
26 S12PPL : If Ted Striker was a real person, I might be impressed.
27 A380900 : I have moved up from a 172 to a mooney and I bet any 172 pilot that thrown in a mooney without an instructor, there is no way the plane comes back in
28 Post contains images Vfw614 : Interesting question. One of Germany's private TV stations (SAT1) ran a story bringing up this subject two days ago. They picked a couple of people, p
29 Post contains images Greasespot : No one said a B767 or a A330 could be glided to a landing and Canadian did it both times.....Therfore following this logic...if it was a Canadian PPL
30 Vfw614 : To answer your question - from Flight Intl:
31 Post contains links and images AirRyan : Wow, now that is a survey I'd like to participate in! In the 737 all he would have had to do was set the autobrakes to whatever number he thought nec
32 CO757bos2iah : "Somewhat" may get you killed in a matter of seconds. Hesitating and indecision won't get you on the ground safely.[Edited 2005-08-22 04:10:17]
33 TCFC424 : I will agree and disagree with posts made here. As a civilian with no previous flight experience, I would think that a PPL would be able to make a bet
34 Post contains images StevenUhl777 : And to think we got 24 replies before the Ted Striker reference! An a-net record for sure....
35 FlyHoss : That's a gross oversimplification. For one thing, it would be a rare controller who would know the cockpit (of say, a 737 - like the Helios flight (o
36 COAMiG29 : I am serious and stop calling me surely! I have landed a 737 on a simulator but on final there was the ever welcome WOOP WOOP PULL UP. rough landing b
37 Post contains images USAFHummer : US pilot certificates are actually plastic these days Greg
38 AirWillie6475 : A wise guy once said: "A private pilot would be able to fly the 737 or A320 all the way to the scene of the crash."
39 AirWillie6475 : Actually you might have a chance with the 737. In order to land the airbus however, you'd have to know how to progarm computers before you could fly t
40 Hawker : There are two aspects to a successful landing, the approach and touchdown. You need to have a stabilized approach on the glideslope at the right speed
41 Abbs380 : A captain once asked me if I knew the difference between a new Airbus captain and an experienced Airbus captain. When I replied No, he said a new capt
42 Squad55 : I've done only 4 hours in a 152, however I've flown (full motion sims, 737-200,767-300,777-200,747-400 & DC-10-30. The 777 and 747 were remarkably ver
43 Baw716 : I have over 1000 hours on FS2004 aircraft, specifically 737 and A320 type rated, I just got typed on the LDS 767. I have spent a couple of hours this
44 Post contains images AvroArrow : I have a PPL with about 300 hrs. I have flown a full motion 737-200 simulator at United, back when they still had third party weekend programs in Denv
45 Post contains images AirRyan : Okay then, give me five to ten minutes to go over the pit and verify how each lever/switch works and/or how to reach them from my seat and then I'd b
46 Pjungmann : YES. A PPL can land an airliner. I conduct such "fantasy flights" in Minneapolis, and with just a little coaching most private pilots have been able t
47 AA717driver : Sure, in a sim, with someone over their shoulder coaching them, most PPL's could get the plane to the runway. In real life, no way. Way too much going
48 Bruce : I was just reading the latest news on the Helios crash and it appears that a man made a mayday call just before the crash. Officials believe the man w
49 Mrocktor : With stall warning aural messages and stick shakers you have to be *edited for political correctness* to stall an airliner. mrocktor
50 CO757bos2iah : I'm with you. I bet the sim is "SEVERE CLEAR" at that ! I hear some crazy comments on here,but really. Why I don't doubt your skills ( you obvious ha
51 Post contains images Pjungmann : Well, I think you also need to consider that it's almost impossible to be in an airliner with required fuel reserves and not be able to find fair-enou
52 Post contains images Boeing747_600 : I'm sure I could - a Southwest captain once saw me handle the jetliner simulator at Dave and Busters and said that the real thing was a lot easier - I
53 Post contains images AirRyan : Are you questioning the validity of today's powerful full-motion simulators?! I think most people even those rated for such conditions would have to
54 ACDC8 : Just to add a twist on things. We had a "student" in our flight school several years back who was an F/O on a CX A340. Anyway, he wanted to start flyi
55 SCCutler : Interesting discussion. My experience in flying the 737 sim (I am PP-ASEL, IA, only, with HP and complex endorsements) showed me that (1) it flies jus
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