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NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great  
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5163 posts, RR: 22
Posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11818 times:

Had a pretty thorough look at DTW operations as of about 1pm EST today. Interesting to see that most flights coming into the hub from outstations got off on time and in on time, but, once there, didn't do so well. An overall impression from examining flights to major destinations: NYC, MCO, LAX, SFO, PHX, LAS, DFW, ORD, etc. is that numerous flights started off the day well from the outstations but are not passing seamlessly through the hub. A fair percentage of the flights that I viewed were either canx for "irregular operations" or delayed due to unscheduled maintenance. Weather isn't a factor today.

That's not to say that it's a total meltdown. Well over half the flights I reviewed weren't affected at all. But after the first day went so well, perhaps some management folks got complacent.

We'll see what it looks like by the end of the day.

All the best,

Bill

143 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11794 times:

I doubt its management's fault for being complacent. Tells me that this might be a crew's way of supporting the striking mechanics. Doesn't sound any different than a crew "crossing the t's and dotting the i's." Its a typical work slow down that to be honest, is legitimate in its ways.

User currently offlineHammer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 689 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11776 times:

As of 9:45 this morning there were 50 aircraft out of service...

User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11744 times:

Like I said, a maintenance strike doesn't bring things to a halt overnight, it takes time. It's building up.


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineUAXDXer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

Does NWA managment really think it is going to be "business as usual" if this strike continues much longer?


It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11682 times:

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 1):
Its a typical work slow down that to be honest, is legitimate in its ways.

Yep. Screws the passengers who pay all the salaries at NWA, that's all, not the airline management. I'm currently begging CO to re-route me off of a codeshared flight operated by NW next week because I don't want stranded when the clowns keep this crap up. The passengers don't have sympathy for your mechanics as long as their plane gets them from A to B safely and expediously. Now that your people are doing a "typical work slow down" that is "legitimate" the passengers will be PO-ed. It's not legitimate to little Johnny who was going on a plane ride for the first time to go see Mickey Mouse. It's not legitimate to the kid flying to college for the semester. It's not legitimate to the grieving person going to a funeral either. THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!! The same stuff which affected US at PHL after the baggage slowdown/sick-out will now affect NW @ DTW due to similar circumstances. So when your passengers go away, who cares how much your union guys got their salaries cut? No pax = no flights = no airline = no salaries.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11575 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Thread starter):
Interesting to see that most flights coming into the hub from outstations got off on time and in on time, but, once there, didn't do so well. An overall impression from examining flights to major destinations: NYC, MCO, LAX, SFO, PHX, LAS, DFW, ORD, etc. is that numerous flights started off the day well from the outstations but are not passing seamlessly through the hub.

So they are doing no worse then Alaska Airlines did this summer?



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineHammer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 689 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11538 times:

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 4):
Does NWA managment really think it is going to be "business as usual" if this strike continues much longer

If NWA can make it 2 weeks they will be fine, this was according to people on CNN last night...


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11414 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

That is how the message gets "hit" home to management.


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6437 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11365 times:

How many flights were cancelled yesterday on Day 1 (non-weather)?


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinePDXtriple7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11253 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
The passengers don't have sympathy for your mechanics as long as their plane gets them from A to B safely and expediously. Now that your people are doing a "typical work slow down" that is "legitimate" the passengers will be PO-ed. It's not legitimate to little Johnny who was going on a plane ride for the first time to go see Mickey Mouse. It's not legitimate to the kid flying to college for the semester. It's not legitimate to the grieving person going to a funeral either. THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

I completely agree. I feel bad for the stranded passengers and not the striking mechanics at this point.


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6437 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11199 times:

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 10):
I completely agree. I feel bad for the stranded passengers and not the striking mechanics at this point.

But didn't the passenger have a month too CHANGE AIRLINES????



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12148 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11143 times:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

That is how the message gets "hit" home to management.

Well, perhaps you and the NW machanics can learn, in your next job:

"Would you like fries with that, sir/ma'am"?

Remember, most passengers will not go back to an airline that pissed them off, as long as they have a choice.

That is why I will never fly AA, US, or UA again, if I have a choice about when and where I need to go.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
Yep. Screws the passengers who pay all the salaries at NWA, that's all, not the airline management. I'm currently begging CO to re-route me off of a codeshared flight operated by NW next week because I don't want stranded when the clowns keep this crap up. The passengers don't have sympathy for your mechanics as long as their plane gets them from A to B safely and expediously. Now that your people are doing a "typical work slow down" that is "legitimate" the passengers will be PO-ed. It's not legitimate to little Johnny who was going on a plane ride for the first time to go see Mickey Mouse. It's not legitimate to the kid flying to college for the semester. It's not legitimate to the grieving person going to a funeral either. THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!! The same stuff which affected US at PHL after the baggage slowdown/sick-out will now affect NW @ DTW due to similar circumstances. So when your passengers go away, who cares how much your union guys got their salaries cut? No pax = no flights = no airline = no salaries.

Very well said,Tornado82. Can I add something to those on strike or work slow down at NW? Remember, when you are out of your job, because you ran your employer into the ground, that the union bosses (who you so blindly followed) still have their job.


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11111 times:

That's funny...the Minneapolis Star-Tribune is reporting something totally different:

http://startribune.com/stories/535/5571345.html



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineSolehibob From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11078 times:

The day is very very young...tomorrow is the crunch

User currently offlineAviationwiz From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 962 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11074 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
But didn't the passenger have a month too CHANGE AIRLINES????

Yes they most certaintly did.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

Exactly. They have been left with no choice. Blame the cheap, stingy management, not the mechanics.

I sure don't see the mechanics demanding the management take a 20% pay cut and 53% lay-off's, while they give themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars of bonuses.



Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11637 posts, RR: 61
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11052 times:

I think it's now clear, into day two of the strike, that the more moderated prediction on its outcome have at least thus far proven to be true -- it's going better than AMFA predicted, but not as good as management predicted, as there are still at least a few "unscheduled maintenace" or "irregular operations" delays in DTW and MSP.

All in all, though, I'd say days one and two have been an enormous P.R. triumph for NW, as they have thus far been able to pretty much (not completely, but for the most part) live up to their promise of getting people where they were scheduled to be fairly on-time. Now, of course, as the union's reps said on the news, this is only the second day. As maintenance issues and MELs accumulate, it will be up to the new replacements to handle them quickly, efficiently and, most importantly, safely. If delays start stacking up this coming week, then NW could just snatch defeat from victory, by vindicating the union's predictions of massive delays, cancellations and disruptions.


User currently offlineDeltaA380 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10987 times:

I have said it before and I will say it again; things are going from bad to worse in this country in that we are running out of jobs that pay a living wage. Some of this may have to do with outsourcing to other countries, which is great for the CEO who is in her/his position for the next few years but it is a dismal prospect for the future. This NW work action is just another example of the fight that harkens back to the days when trade unions were young. The problem which we have more control over is management/union relations which are abysmal in this country due to a history of confrontation rather than collabaration. Unions and management don't really want different things; they ultimately all want and need a profitable company and actually, a profitable economy as a whole. The sad thing, as some of our European posters have mentioned, is that it doesn't have to be like this.

Even though I have little sympathy for this particularly union, I can't blame them for fighting NW on this. Besides the history of tense labor relations with management, cutting 53% of mechanics jobs is simply mind boggling. Those of you that are bashing the unions efforts (bashing some of their tactics are appropriate,) may want to think long and hard about your own job security. Whether in labor or management, whether in the airline industry or not, where this country has gone in the past 5 years does not bode well for any of our job security.



Vote Democratic in '06 and '08
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10924 times:

>> Tells me that this might be a crew's way of supporting the striking mechanics. Doesn't sound any different than a crew "crossing the t's and dotting the i's." Its a typical work slow down that to be honest, is legitimate in its ways.

Not quite, work-to-rule action is not considered unlawful, but workers engaging in such action are not protected by U.S. labor law and can be fired at their employer's discretion. However, I do think that NW has other things on their mind at the moment...


User currently offlineUAL777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10894 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Remember, most passengers will not go back to an airline that pissed them off, as long as they have a choice.

That is why I will never fly AA, US, or UA again, if I have a choice about when and where I need to go.

Thats just ignorent. Everyone here knows that airlines have bad days. But its ok CK135, you've already knocked off AA,US, and AA, and with the way the industry is now, maybe in another 2 years, you will be down to just Hooter's Air......  Wink



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlinePDXtriple7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10855 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
But didn't the passenger have a month too CHANGE AIRLINES????

Point of clarification: Were they given the option to change airlines without penalities? Regardless, it is still a pain.


User currently offlineNWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10858 times:

DeltaA380

BINGO!!! Thank you for getting it. Having hard working AMERICAN's loosing their jobs over and over to get outsourced has to come to an end. From a Corporation point of view, yea its great, helps the bottom line - but in this great country that we live in, bottom lines have totally taken over the American dreams and hopes.



THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
User currently offlineFleet Service From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 622 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days ago) and read 10726 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Remember, most passengers will not go back to an airline that pissed them off, as long as they have a choice.

The Christmas meltdown in PHL hasn't driven people away from UAIR all that much now has it?

Passengers have short memories, as long as they get that $99.00 round trip.



Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days ago) and read 10632 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
Not quite, work-to-rule action is not considered unlawful, but workers engaging in such action are not protected by U.S. labor law and can be fired at their employer's discretion. However, I do think that NW has other things on their mind at the moment...

DfwRevolution

When I said it is legitimate, it is. I'm not referring to a group of people unwilling to cross a picket line. I'm referring to pilots doing write up's upon arrival into lets say DTW or MSP that ordinarilly they would be willing to fly with. Now all of a sudden, they are more "particular" with making sure all items no matter how small...say a passenger light bulb be written up and signed off by MX. Every airline experiences this, only normally it is during the pilot's contract negotiations.


User currently offlineTripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days ago) and read 10595 times:

Does anyone have some information on how this is affectiing KLM's operations to the US? NW is doing KLM ops in the US, so this might eventually affect KLM.

25 Post contains images CO767FA : Once again, your post serves to show how ignorant some people can be; what makes you think I will end up working for McDonald's. Many on the front li
26 Filejw : One of the things they are doing is cleaning up all the extra MEL's that were generated in the last few weeks.Trying to get the logbook's clean.
27 777PURSER : Management has spent money on replacement workers training, aparently, they are not properly qualified. The Union representing the mechanics did offer
28 NWAFA : 777Purser, First of all, THANK YOU for your words - you hit on right on the head. The SCAB trained (so called trained) Flight Attendendants have NOT b
29 EA CO AS : Who DON'T pay the salaries, actually - and that's the problem. The passengers are demanding ridiculously low fares that do not actually cover the cos
30 KabAir : Really? Last time I booked an airline ticket I went to the airline's website, put in the dates I wanted to fly, and the site basically said "Ok this
31 Syncmaster : I did think long and hard, the more they strike, the more third-party contractors (like the one I work for) get work, and therefore that means I get
32 EA CO AS : And when management raises the fare, even modestly, the customer balks. And when increases in fuel are passed along, the customer balks. And when inc
33 Bobnwa : Source for this info please.
34 KabAir : Customers refusing to buy goods or services they don't want to pay for?! The NERVE!!!! How dare Mrs. Smith not buy an airline ticket if she doesn't w
35 Halls120 : As I understand it, NW mechanics are being asked to take a pay cut from 70K to 52K. Since when is $52,000 a year not a "living wage?" You think cutti
36 Blrsea : Blaming the customers for preferring low fares is stupid. Who wants to pay more fares? The people working in airline industry get discounted or free t
37 Halls120 : It's amazing how many times I see the above inaccurate statement. Passengers are not the culprits. When LCC's like WN and B6 began offering low fares
38 UAcosCS : lets hope for the best! If United and their summer from hell hasn't tough us anything, the traveling public have a very small memory. Call it an igno
39 Slider : Nonsense. Without getting into a total rant about outsourcing and such, I would say that the immediate issues specific to the airline industry don't
40 777PURSER : USA TODAY, August 12, 2005: Article: Northwest Details Back Up Plans if Mechanics Strike Quote: "...Ludwig also criticized Steenland, operations chie
41 Transair737 : Exactly, I am not aware of passengers who booked on NW months ago being able cancel their flight and receive a refund. I have several friends traveli
42 PA110 : No airline allows changes pre-emptively. Commercial policies are only put into place once a disruption actually occurs. So no, passengers who has alr
43 CactusTECH : ALOT of Sympathy we have for NWA mechanics from AWA MX . you guys are doing the right thing and is not fair an airplane mechanic to get lower wages th
44 Ballpeeen : Not really. Very, very few airlines have lower bottom-line costs than any other carrier. The advantage goes to companies that have unrestricted cash
45 Crogalski : Today in TPA, I saw only 1 flight from 4a-2p, when there is usually 4 or 5.. The bagroom was mostly empty for this time, when it was usually staffed b
46 Post contains images Warszawa : I'll agree with KC135. I wont fly NWA (No - it has nothing to do with the strike, I've refused to fly them since last year) for specific reasons, unl
47 Solehibob : This is going to be bad, the media is just starting to catch wind of all this. Tomorrow will be a disaster.
48 BostonGuy : Hundreds of thousands of Americans not in the airline industry LOST their jobs before you were even asked to take a pay cut. Think about that! That h
49 LUVRSW : that's some funny shitt there BG!
50 Post contains images KabAir : BostonGuy, to answer your question: Buying ice cream at the locally owned ice cream shop (which is probably a bit cheaper and better service) is like
51 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: KSTP-TV Day Two - Video Report http://kstp.dayport.com/viewer/viewerpage.php?Art_ID=162738/
52 Derik737 : Exactly the problem with our country today. Greed and selfishness. I'd hate to have you employed as a cop, fireman or God forbid, a soldier. When our
53 Gift4tbone : OK this whole ben and jerrys thing, and the kid making $50k/ year is hilarious. I agree completly on the sentiment. but i have to mention i think its
54 Ikramerica : Not true. Prices are higher this summer than last, but the industry is at full tilt to the point of undercapacity. Pax will fly if the price is REASO
55 Incitatus : Even though I'd like to agree that a an aircraft mechanic should make more than a car mechanic, capitalism does not work that way. There is supply of
56 Ballpeeen : And then, we can all fly around on aircraft maintained by people who will apparently do anything for $15 an hour; mixed with some illegal immigrants!
57 BostonGuy : Just trudged in from the grocery store. I live in the city and don't need a car (darn... gotta buy some cars to keep those union people employed!) so
58 BostonGuy : Right on! And Best Buy is transitioning its stores so that each store only offers products that are profitable and in-demand by consumers who shop at
59 EA CO AS : Spare me your drivel. I understand perfectly - and no, you can't blame the consumer entirely for the industry's situation; management is mostly to bl
60 N200WN : KabAir, I also would like to thank you for responding to EA CO AS. Those were the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard for the current state of
61 EA CO AS : So you're saying that consumer behavior isn't even partially to blame? Not even a little bit, eh? I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong - I'm just
62 Uadc8contrail : ea co as, AMEN BROTHER........................................
63 DeltaA380 : Quote=Syncmaster,reply=31 I did think long and hard, the more they strike, the more third-party contractors (like the one I work for) get work, and th
64 Post contains images Blrsea : How can you blame the consumer? It is part of human psyche that if two products are identical without too much of a difference in perceived quality,
65 DeltaA380 : Well okay, for that matter probably millions of Americans lost their jobs before I was "asked" to take a pay cut. Let me say this, I agree that DL ne
66 Shenzhen : Personally I think NW management over the past 20 years are more to blame then anyone else. What did anyone expect, with leveraged buy outs and such.
67 Blrsea : "Leading by example" appears to be obsolete now!! I guess earlier, insiders used to be promoted to the top positions of the companies. So there would
68 EA CO AS : Christ, don't you get it? I'm not saying the consumer is "wrong," but I AM saying that their behavior - behavior they've become conditioned to have i
69 N587NK : Amen EA CO AS You've said exatly what I have wanted to say. I'll add you to my respected users list!
70 N587NK : well if I could, it says your not a valid user
71 UALdispatch : Well said EA The same people who complain on how Airlines dont serve meals anymore on flights, pillows, movies, ect are the ones who keep demanding lo
72 Vikkyvik : I'm sorry in advance; maybe I'm the only one who feels the way I do (but please read and comment): In terms of the strike: They have a right to strike
73 Halls120 : So is the consumer partially at fault because WN and B6 can make a profit while offering a quality product at a lower price? Are we supposed to gladl
74 B707Stu : Well said. I believe you have it right on the $$$. The country has swung too far to the right, meaning, respect for management and owners, lack of re
75 Halls120 : And if those very same doctors and lawyers find that their non-unionized colleagues are willing to offer the same services for a reasonable price - l
76 BostonGuy : Let's parse what you said, starting from the end. Consumers are "part of the problem (not all, just part)... the specific problem they are causing is
77 Bobnwa : Isn't Ludwig the president of the union? Didn't the top executives of NW take sizable pay cuts last year? What pay cuts did the mechanics take last y
78 Ballpeeen : Yeah. You should be able to compete on cost alone against those eight year olds sewing Nikes together for ten cents a day in Indonesia. You should be
79 Frequentflyer : IMHO that's one more reason not to strike. Agreed, and I suggest bonuses for motivated replacements. It's high time you realize NW & Management are n
80 AS739X : Oh L-188 with his useal Alaska bashing in a NW chat......I heard here at SFO, that day one of the strike only the Narita flight departed, this true ca
81 BostonGuy : Those are good issues to bring up. The only problem is that advocating paying NW airline mechanics wages that aren't sustainable by a company isn't a
82 Halls120 : I think you might be the one who needs to "get a clue." The NYTimes has an article today (discussed in another thread) which details how NW has antic
83 EA CO AS : Not at all, and nowhere did I say that. All I'm saying is that it's awfully convenient that almost all of the non-employees here are quick to point t
84 BostonGuy : If it's a structural problem as you claim how can we not point our fingers at you if your solution is not to solve the problem? NW executives say the
85 8B775ZQ : As much as I don't agree with the mechanics for staging a strike which would only serve to send NWA further into trouble,I think management should tak
86 Shenzhen : A good start would be to lead, and take a cut also, stop taking incentives and of course, get rid of the gas guzzling DC9s instead of people. If that
87 Halls120 : The consumer behavior of expecting low fare service didn't just appear by magic. It started when WN and other LCC's demonstrated the ability to provi
88 BostonGuy : I agree that executive salaries, bonuses and benefits need to be on the table, too. How much would NW save if executives took the same percentage cut
89 Post contains images EA CO AS : Who said it wasn't to solve the problem? If you knew anything about the industry - and it's clear that you don't - you'd know that "It's the revenue,
90 Bobnwa : If you check you will see that management has already taken pay cuts and had their numbers reduced significantly in the past year. The pilots have al
91 TOLtommy : Management salaries were cut as part of the agreement with a the NW pilots.
92 777PURSER : Bonuses should be awarded based on performance, not to compensate for paycuts taken in the past. We will have to live with our lower wages and hard w
93 Post contains links and images BR715-A1-30 : 'Nuff said
94 Shenzhen : That would depend on how many managers? I really haven't been following the NW saga to closely, only what I've read here on A Net. My point wasn't ab
95 BostonGuy : EA CO AS's theory that consumers are to blame because they changed their behavior and began to "demand" lower fares from the airlines is terribly fla
96 EA CO AS : It's not though, as you have illustrated. You said WN and B6 came along and "upset the apple cart," and they did so by catering to the change in cons
97 BostonGuy : Tell us about successful airlines that focus on revenue but not costs.
98 777PURSER : BR715-A1-30: GREAT POSTING!!! CONGRATS!! Did you finally saw the light? If I remember properly you were one of those FA's in "just in case SCAB FA tra
99 EA CO AS : I believe they're equally important and need to be focused on simultaneously, but management at some airlines are taking the lazy man's approach and
100 Post contains images Frequentflyer : First off you do not need to segregate between industry insiders and outsiders, what's been discussed here is easily understandable and of vaue to ev
101 EA CO AS : Labor costs aren't the main issue anymore because frankly, for the most part it's damn near impossible to get labor costs much lower than they are al
102 Travelin man : The Internet has actually driven consumer behaviour. In the last 10 years, it has become easy for me to click where I want to go, a date, and then com
103 Halls120 : Because if consumer behavior changed, it was the airlines that prompted the change, not the other way around. I believe BostonGuy's response in reply
104 EA CO AS : That's not in dispute. The airlines - through their own stupidity - did prompt that change in consumer behavior. All I've been trying to point out is
105 Post contains links BostonGuy : Wrong. NW Labor Costs An excerpt from that article: "The numbers paint a bleak picture for Northwest: It has the highest labor costs in the industry,
106 BostonGuy : OK... I actually think I see where you're coming from. And this all boils down to a word or two. "Cause" and "Change". There are a lot of us who know
107 Post contains images EA CO AS : Wrong. Per aviation analyst Holly Hegeman, WN has the highest labor costs. (It's in a detailed .pdf analysis titled "PlaneBusiness Airline Industry R
108 Travelin man : Actually, what happened was that airlines used business people to subsidize the "loss leader" fares and super-saver fares being pushed by the airline
109 EA CO AS : I guess I can only ask what conclusion you would draw from comments about "greedy employees." Hearing what I've heard and reading what has been writt
110 EA CO AS : No argument whatsoever. You're dead-on, and FWIW, I've always felt the $2000.00 one way transcon fare was ridiculous then and it's still ridiculous n
111 Halls120 : Why should WN and B6 raise their "low end fares" when they are making money on them? This is one question those of you who like to blame the customer
112 EA CO AS : You're assuming that they actually are, though - and that's not the case. Even those carriers offer loss-leader rates. Put another way - if WN and B6
113 CO757bos2iah : Ok. I won;t avoid this question. I don't think B6 or WN should raise their fares, but why should a carrier lower their fares to the point of going ou
114 EA CO AS : AND they also serve places that won't economically support the 737 or A320 from the LCC, like SHV, SWF, TVC, HSV, and other small communities with li
115 Halls120 : But they ARE profitable overall - especially WN. Are you suggesting that they raise their lower fares and become even more profitable - just so legac
116 Post contains links BostonGuy : OK. As you put it, "the conditioned response that customers were taught...". So why are customers a cause of the problem? The situation was created b
117 EA CO AS : Not at all. I'm just refuting your post; even the LCCs have loss-leader fares and are willing to subsidize them against higher-yield tickets. And it'
118 EA CO AS : Please understand - it's not a matter of me wanting to "blame" the customer per se, but just pointing out that they're a factor, that's all. I just w
119 Post contains images KabAir : Wow, I haven't been on my computer for quite awhile so I lost track of this thread. But BostonGuy, great posts. How's that freezer of yours doing? Fil
120 Halls120 : This is what you said in reply 110: "The more flexible fares have come down quite a bit, and I think that's great. However, I also believe the low-en
121 LUVRSW : Holy Jesus....You guys need a hobby.
122 Post contains images KabAir : Ummm.. I thought being part of an aviation forum where we generally rip eachother to shreds is a hobby. Now if you had told me I need a LIFE I might
123 Post contains images BostonGuy : I'm quite amused by the Ronald Reagan quote in EA CO AS's signature, too! If dear sweet Ronnie was still alive and could read this thread he'd probab
124 Shenzhen : EA CO AS I think you have had some good posts, but the consumer has been conditioned on the price of fares for a long time, and can wait out an increa
125 Post contains images BostonGuy : Anyone want some ice cream? Belch
126 KabAir : I'm proud of what you're doing. Yes, your arteries will soon be overwhelmed, you'll be 800 pounds, and your major organs will start shutting down - b
127 Post contains images KabAir : Oh, I almost forgot BostonGuy - welcome to my RU list. When you're lying in bed sick tonight you can think to yourself "I may be suffering from severe
128 Post contains images BostonGuy : Thanks! And thanks for the reminder about the RU list! I've done likewise! And included Halls120, too Last call for ice cream until tomorrow morning!
129 KabAir : Ah yes, must not forget Halls120. I'm off to bed myself. Happy icecreaming.
130 Post contains images EA CO AS : Now that you're all done collectively ice-creaming all over yourselves, have a good night.
131 DeltaA380 : I couldn't agree more; labor has to learn to compete on an international scale just as management has learned.
132 Halls120 : After I signed off last night, I enjoyed a pint of Dove raspberry/dutch chocolate. It was grand!
133 Ballpeeen : I've been busy fixing airplanes for far less than thos scabs make; but I will answer this question now. In a nutshell, no. The reason that JetBlue an
134 Post contains links BostonGuy : This evenings consumption was Starbucks Mocha Fudge Latté or something like that. I found additional analyst commentary that I thought was interesti
135 Derik737 : It might also be since they don't have to pay outlandish aircraft lease rates to Wings Holdings (the real owners of the majority of NWA's aircraft).
136 Post contains images EA CO AS : Primarily quoting the same Vaughn Cordle you mentioned earlier, I see. Apparently he's a one-trick pony. "Bad employees - BAD!"
137 BostonGuy : Yes, the same Vaughn Cordle. The analyst you've been quoting in this thread has been quoted speaking highly of him and saying he has excellent points
138 Ballpeeen : I know. And Northwest owned most of their aircraft, as well as hangar space and GSE, until th 1990's, when a new group of rich people decided to loot
139 BostonGuy : Wow. Proof again that unions have no clue. The Northwest mechanics' union collects millions of dollars in member dues and the best they can do with t
140 N501US : Is it true that AMFA has no strike fund for the striking employess or is this urban legend?
141 Post contains links BostonGuy : Yes, it's true. Great details on that situation at the Star Tribune. Read the linked article to get a complete picture of this situation from both si
142 Ballpeeen : Wow. You look at a post covering what is basically the looting of a company for personal gain, and then decide the unions are greedy? Look, I don't l
143 BostonGuy : Yes, I do. I think I was replying to more than just your quote... I was including in my reply comments regarding other peoples' (union) replies that
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