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Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?  
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5570 times:

Why did Aéroports de Montréal choose YUL for future development at the expense of YMX? YMX is further out, to be sure, but has a lot more land, and would seem to have less of a NIMBY problem.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1637 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

Oh man you just opened a can of worms..... watch the fun begin and enjoy it before it's locked down.

Ok.. it's probably less to do with the physical airport than the strategy and roles they played... combined with the way the airline industry evolved into alliance groups.. Air Canada's role.. Toronto's growth... and all sorts of nasty political manoeuvering.... in the end choosing YUL was likely the cheapest and fastest way Montreal could survive the changes in the industry and competition from Toronto... but someone out there will tell you why I am soooo wrong....

[Edited 2005-08-21 22:38:15]

User currently offlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5535 times:

Airliner World (January 2005) did a special on YMX after it closed pax operations. It seemed YUL, being AC's 2nd largest hub, continued to attract most of the international/intercontinental scheduled traffic and YMX just couldn't get them out of town. In order to compete with YYZ Montreal wanted to consolidate its air traffic.

That's what I could interpret from the article but I'm no expert and won't put up a fight if someone more knowledgeable shows me to be wrong.


User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4944 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

This subject pops up now and then and is usually the source of some of the most heated debates ever to hit a.net!

There are so many sides and political angles to the final decision and money just thrown away that it's almost impossible to count them all!



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5481 times:

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 3):
This subject pops up now and then and is usually the source of some of the most heated debates ever to hit a.net!

Didn't know that! Hmm maybe I shouldn't have posted...  worried   box 


User currently offlineExPedia From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5460 times:

Yes, mon ami, this is one for the ages  Smile

However, in a nutshell, YMX was a political decision back in the day that was never FORCED to work - so momentum and location meant it never did. Not to mention that it was way out of town compared to the close-in location of YUL, the brutal pax connections by bus, and operations duplications and complexity the two remote terminals drove.

It was (possibly) a well intentioned concept back when, but simply never took hold. If they had just shut YUL down (not saying that they should have, but...) then things would be different. But as long as it was there, it was almost gravity that one day things would consolidate there again.

Of course, in many ways, it's too late as YYZ has a commanding lead as Canada's premier transatlantic international gateway at this point and shows no signs of stopping unless they truly price themselves out of the market.



-- ExPedia
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3161 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5416 times:

YMX was among other reasons built as YUL was not having enough capacity. Back at the time, when there weren't such long-range airliners as now, many airlines from Europe made a stop in YUL before continuing to other airports in North-America.

When YMX was completed, there were longer range airliners, making the stop in Montreal obsolete. Capacity was relieved, and there was not really longer the need for two airports. And in the end, as already stated, many people preferred YUL.

The whole YMX project also never really took off. A rail connection was planned, but never materialized.


User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 644 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5398 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 6):
The whole YMX project also never really took off. A rail connection was planned, but never materialized.

...a rail connection, a hwy extention, and urban expansion...which never materialized thanks to the separatist threat.



Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5392 times:

Well dont ya worry.

One day in our generation, we will be heading back to YMX.


User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 644 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5377 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 8):
One day in our generation, we will be heading back to YMX

I won't be holding my breath.



Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4118 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5357 times:

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
would seem to have less of a NIMBY problem.

This would be the case if YUL were not in an industrial area of west Montreal and not a lot of people live in this area immediate to the airport. YUL has just undergone a major restoration and is able to handle the present and future air traffic demands. I have read reports in the Globe and Mail that YMX is to be returned to the local farmers it was expropriated from there for I do not think that there is much of a future for that airport.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3161 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5353 times:

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 7):
.which never materialized thanks to the separatist threat.

Interesting you mention this. I have been on a student exchange to Sept-Iles QC for a year, living in a family that was very pro-seperation. I asked them once why Montreal had two airports and who was using the other one. In their response, they got very angry to the canadian government who was wasting their money on useless projects, etc, etc. Interesting to see the other side too  Smile


User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5338 times:

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
One day in our generation, we will be heading back to YMX

I won't be holding my breath.

Why AC7E7? Are you that old?

 Wink



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineExPedia From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5309 times:

Everything involving Quebec and the Federal Government is, by definition, cause for an angry response from somebody. Maybe in Sept Iles, maybe in Calgary, but fer sher it doesn't just pass quietly  Smile

It's what counts as political intrigue in our little emerging petro-sheihkdom.

Long live the tar sands!

 Wink



-- ExPedia
User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 644 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5298 times:

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 12):
Why AC7E7? Are you that old?

Actually, not even 30, but I still won't hold my breath!  Wink



Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1996 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5277 times:
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I was living in Montreal in the late seventies. It was an absolute dog to get out to YMX. All domestic and transborder flights operated out of YUL. Having duel airports virtually precluded using Montreal as a transit point from other Canadian cities to/from longhaul destinations. This was also the time of Rene Levesque and the separatist government. They presided over the largest and most rapid exodus of investment in Quebec history. The Parti Quebecois was a single-issue political party that almost destroyed the province. They wasted millions on foolish schemes that were never seen to completion. YMX was only one of several projects in which the government flushed money down the toilet. As an American going to school at McGill, I was constantly amazed at the immaturity of provincial politics. It was really an unusual time in Canadian politics - hopefully to never be repeated again.


It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 644 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5275 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 11):
I asked them once why Montreal had two airports and who was using the other one. In their response, they got very angry to the canadian government who was wasting their money on useless projects, etc, etc. Interesting to see the other side too

Yeah, and the Quebec government had nothing to do with it....

Highways are provincial jurisdiction - Hwy 13 was supposed to be extended.

There was supposed to be a rail link.... never happened. That is both prov and Fed.

And lets not forget - how many people and companies left YUL because of the separatist threat?

The fact of the matter is, Montreal is living off its former Expo 67 glory. I don't know how much longer that will last. Population growth in Quebec is very small, if not nil. The day the airport authority switches back to YMX, humanity would have already invented the Star Trek transporter, and there will be no need for air travel anymore!



Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 644 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5274 times:

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 16):
As an American going to school at McGill, I was constantly amazed at the immaturity of provincial politics.

Trust me... the Tradition Continues...



Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5228 times:

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 17):
Trust me... the Tradition Continues...

and it spills over to YOW too.
vive le YYZ!!
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineExPedia From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5185 times:

And we're OFF!

Now N328KF, aren't you happy you kicked this off?

We will be re-counting the ballots of the last referendum before this thread dies  Smile



-- ExPedia
User currently offlineFlewGSW From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5167 times:

The status of YMX vs. YUL has made it into the WN Wright admendment discussions.

In a nut shell, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram newspaper had an editorial this month about how DFW will turn into YMX, and DAL which is now the size YUL was when YMX was built, will once again become the sole airport, because it is closer to the population center, businesses, etc.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5157 times:

"The fact of the matter is, Montreal is living off its former Expo 67 glory. I don't know how much longer that will last. Population growth in Quebec is very small, if not nil. The day the airport authority switches back to YMX, humanity would have already invented the Star Trek transporter, and there will be no need for air travel anymore!"

-complete and utter bullsh*t.

Not sure if you have been awake or have even noticed, but things have changed significantly since 1995. Do we need economic indicators in this thread, so we can flush the bias from your keyboard?

the unemployment rate in Montreal is now 0.5% away from Toronto.

 Wink

[Edited 2005-08-22 03:10:30]

User currently offlineBeechNut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 722 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5151 times:

Reasons?

1. YUL is adequate for the traffic needs of a medium-sized city like Montreal (that once was, but no longer is, the metropolis of Canada; YMX was conceived when it still was);
2. YMX is a good 50+ km from downtown Montreal and involves bridges notorious for jamming at rush hour; for poor souls on the South Shore of the city, you're looking, at peak times, travel times of up to 2 hours to fetch your flight;
3. The proper infrastructure (road, rail) that COULD have made YMX work, were never completed. Cost to complete today would be prohibitive with respect to the gains.
4. YUL on the other hand is a 20 min cab ride from downtown in light traffic, and not much more than 45 min. in rush hour.
5. YUL can be reached as easily by someone on the South Shore or North Shore of the island.
6. Two airports made YUL AND YMX become bypassed by airlines due to the monumental hassles of transferring from a domestic/transborder to overseas flight. YUL won out, for reasons above.

In summary, YUL is a far more convenient location for most Montrealers.

The list goes on but those are the *practical* reasons why. For my money, if they could dismantle YMX's terminal and truck it down to YUL to replace that dismal windowless slab that it has become, I would be happy  Smile

Even the much maligned PTVs were nowhere near as bad as people made them out to be.

Mike


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5136 times:

"As an American going to school at McGill, I was constantly amazed at the immaturity of provincial politics. It was really an unusual time in Canadian politics - hopefully to never be repeated again."

-Should we talk about the neo-con maturity of the current administration in the USA?

The ignorance continues.

Let me ask you PA110.. what do you know about Quebec history?


User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

See this is why this perennial thread topic is such a winner, for heated exchange. Y'got most everything that Canadians can possibly gripe about. English vs. French, waste of Federal tax dollars, waste of Provincial or even Municipal tax dollars, 'separatist' arguments vs. 'Federal' or even foreign chauvinist political visions...'would've, could've, should've' finger waving and expostion-making... a-l-l rolled up into one YMX-Nexus. It'll never go away Big grin

As for Mirabel --and Montréal-- themselves though whatever clunkiness there was through the now-halcyon decades of the eighties and even nineties, whoa Nellie there's been a change, for the city is really jumping with development now in the last ~3-5 years. It's amazing. And just a drive at almost any hour of the day along either the 15 or 117 north of Laval nowadays shows that the tentacles of urbanisation have crept a long way in the meantime. Why even St. Jerôme ---some 15 miles north of Mirabel ---is set to get Montréal commuter train service starting about this time next year.

So let's say hypothetically that Montréal right now had absolutely no major airports, and thus needed one badly. Where hypothetically would they build one? Probably around Mirabel. It's really not all that far away from the pulse of the city at the moment. And "North Shore" residents have been growling for a while now about more highway infrastructure into the city --preferably upgrading the 117 but hey even a hypothetical long-overdue completion of the 13 would be welcome too, as the six-lane 15 is not cutting it for most daytime and early evening travel.

So if and when the city does make the big move back to YMX -- I'm guessing around 2025 or so--- when it happens I'm sure that unlike the situation in ~1975-1983 , this time the necessary supporting transit infrastructure is gonna be there for everyone when the time comes.


'Meantime little YUL's doing okay. The new Int'l pier opened up a few months ago --and new Int'l greet room to be finished in the next couple months-- means that while it's still hardly a glamourous place it's at least no longer an embarrassment or even an inconvenient place to use now. Save for the Dorval circle road access but even that's being given some fast-tracking from the Provincials and Feds so hopefully the new highway (and rail) links will be up and running by no later than a few years' time.


25 HKGKaiTak : Having lived in Canada for a little while I have a heard little about this issue ... But, excuse my ignorance, what flights does Mirabel carry these d
26 Jean Leloup : It is being used by no one whatsoever as of last November, actually. Mark; are you seriously suggesting that Quebec provincial politics are not a joke
27 Wobbles : Mirabel and Olympic Stadium, both were really great for La Belle Province, hein? (eh)
28 AC7E7 : Yeah, I have been awake...barely. I work here, live here, and the recovery since 1995 is not that spectacular. The problem with Montrealers (and don'
29 Joost : What I wonder is the following: recently, I saw publications in the Netherlands where the Canadian government basically invited people to move to Can
30 PA110 : You forget, I was there in university at the time this was all happening. You on the other hand, were still in diapers. Nice try, junior.
31 MattRB : YMX - The white elephant that should rightfully bear the name Pierre Elliot Trudeau International.
32 FLYYUL : "You forget, I was there in university at the time this was all happening. You on the other hand, were still in diapers. Nice try, junior." -Real matu
33 FLYYUL : "Yeah, I have been awake...barely. I work here, live here, and the recovery since 1995 is not that spectacular. The problem with Montrealers (and don'
34 Post contains images LH423 : Most countries do that. If you go to Immigration Québec they waste no time in extolling the life in Mauricie, Montérégie, and Lac St-Jean. I know
35 PA110 : Even though I'm American, I did take some Canadian studies courses at McGill. If I remember correctly, the term Quiet Revolution refers to the period
36 Post contains images FLYYUL : You've begun to scratch the surface. Dig deeper
37 PA110 : What's your point? And what ultimately does this have to do with YMX being a colossal failure?
38 QB001 : This thread, and some of the astonishingly stupid comments it contains (such as those of AC7E7 and PA110), remind me why I pretty much gave up on a.ne
39 Post contains images PA110 : QB001, I've just read some of your previous posts on the subject, and you are sadly embittered that AC chose (wisely) not to have multiple hubs in eas
40 AC7E7 : I may disagree with FLYYUL on this issue, but I do not consider his opinions to be stupid, despite his overly defensive responses. Everybody has a ri
41 Skywatcher : YMX is still used for 24/7 all cargo flights. There's about a dozen jet freighters per day using the facility along with a few Skyvans. YMX was design
42 AC7E7 : Because they were used for many years. And since the fall of the Berlin Wall, there is no need for as many air force bases. The military adjusts itse
43 Post contains images ExPedia : So how long before the "YUL is faaaaaaaaar too busy/noisy - something must be done" drumbeat gets fired up? Any bets? That will be sweet, eh? We'll ge
44 AC7E7 : Its already happening and has been for many years. There is a group in the Montreal area that complains about their houses being in the flight path.
45 Jean Leloup : ExPedia, I really don't think that will happen. I'm not aware of much complaining going on about noise at YUL. My family lives only about three blocks
46 Jean Leloup : Very interesting. As I just mentioned, my family has lived within a couple blocks of the airport for years, and I have never met someone who had a pr
47 AC7E7 : I don't think its an ADM rule, but perhaps a city rule?
48 Jean Leloup : Sorry; I'm sure your right. It must be a city rule. In any case, one that they should follow. The curfew is between midnight and 6 a.m., I believe, w
49 ExPedia : Curfews are pretty commonplace - YYZ has them too, with no flight ops between 1am and 6am. Landing after 1 - say if a machine is late inbound - will c
50 Yyz717 : The ADM had a tough decision to make. They had to close either YMX or YUL. While YMX had more space for long term expansion, YUL had the better facili
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