Shenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1706 posts, RR: 2 Posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4606 times:
By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
As it closes in on what could be a record year for jetliner orders, The Boeing Co. could soon land its first 787 deal with one of the aircraft leasing giants.
Martin Bentrott, vice president of sales, marketing and in-service support for the 787 program, would not identify the customer, but it is likely International Lease Finance Corp., whose chairman and founder, Steven Hazy, has said he is talking with Boeing about the 787.
"We anticipate reaching closure (on the deal) within the next month or two," Bentrott said.
Although press reports continue to say that Boeing has failed to woo a leasing company with its 787, Bentrott disclosed that Boeing has such an order -- but just has not advertised it.
For a couple months, Boeing has carried on its order-and-delivery Web site an order from an unidentified customer for six 787s. That order is from a leasing company, Bentrott said, although he declined to identify the customer.
It is apparently one that is not too well known.
"Some will probably be surprised when they find out who it is," he said.
In a wide-ranging interview, Bentrott also said that Boeing's 787 sales team is now focused on signing firm contracts with the remaining customers who have announced commitments for the 787. Those 787 orders cannot be officially counted until a firm deal is signed.
"We are trying to get all those signed up this year," he said.
So far, Boeing has announced 256 orders or commitments for the 787 from 21 customers. Of those, 143 are firm orders, with 87 signed this year. "This year is going to be phenomenal (for 787 sales)," Bentrott said.
The final 787 tally for 2005 will help Boeing beat Airbus for the first time since 2000 in total jetliner sales.
Through mid-August, Boeing had 571 gross orders, or 549 net orders. The net orders reflect cancellations. Boeing lost a number of orders for its 717 earlier this year after announcing that the former McDonnell Douglas program would end once the remaining backlog is built.
Depending on what happens the rest of the year, Boeing not only appears likely to end up with significantly more orders than Airbus for 2005, but could set a sales record. The current record for Boeing or Airbus was established in 1996, when Boeing had 670 gross orders (the figure does not include McDonnell Douglas planes.)
Bentrott acknowledged that with so many orders for the 787 coming this year, 2006 will be slower.
"Orders for the 787 next year should be good, just perhaps not to the same extreme as this year," he said.
For one thing, delivery positions -- when airlines can take delivery of a 787 after they place a firm order -- are filled out through 2010. All Nippon Airways of Japan gets the first 787 in the first half of 2008.
"The real question is, with fuel prices continuing to be a pressure point, will that encourage airlines to be a little more proactive in terms of thinking longer term in making decisions" about ordering new jets, Bentrott said. "With us sold out through 2010, they will need to be thinking about delivery positions or pretty soon we will be sold out through 2011 and 2012."
Boeing is holding some delivery positions for a few of the big-name airlines and key customers that could announce commitments or firm orders for the 787 this year or in early 2006.
"There are some strategic airlines that we are protecting delivery positions for," Bentrott acknowledged. "We know how important they will be to the program. We don't want them to be without a delivery position at the time they are making a decision."
These airlines include Singapore Airlines, Qantas and British Airways. All three have said they are considering the 787 but want to look at the A350, a competing Airbus jet. Airbus has said it expects to launch development of the A350 next month. It would enter service in 2010, two years after the 787.
Singapore Airlines' big plans. In addition to the 787, Singapore Airlines has also asked Boeing for proposals on its 777-200LR as well as the 747 Advanced. It has requested proposals from Airbus for the A350, the A340-500 and more A380s.
Singapore Airlines will get the first A380 delivered by Airbus, in late 2006. But the plane will be at least six months late. That has upset Singapore executives, and Boeing sees an opportunity with its 747 Advanced. It would use the fuel-efficient engines being developed for the 787.
Boeing is expected to seek approval from its board later this year to develop the 747 Advanced as a freighter and passenger plane, once it has received sufficient customer commitments. The passenger version would have about 35 more seats than the 416-seat 747-400 now in service.
If Boeing could turn trend-setting Singapore Airlines into a customer for the passenger version of its 747 Advanced, it would send message throughout the industry that Boeing's flagship jumbo is far from dead, despite the arrival of the bigger and newer A380.
Singapore Airlines is expected to make a decision on the Boeing or Airbus planes late this year or in early 2006.
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4074 posts, RR: 91
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4477 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
Quoting Shenzhen (Thread starter): For a couple months, Boeing has carried on its order-and-delivery Web site an order from an unidentified customer for six 787s. That order is from a leasing company, Bentrott said, although he declined to identify the customer
Very interesting, finally we know it's a Leasing Co. The first 787 order by such a company. It will be one of the lesser known ones and I'll put my money on one of the following 3, AWAS, Bavaria Leasing or CIT. Question is, who have they placed them with?
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4074 posts, RR: 91
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4084 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 3): ILFC sure has taken its time for a 787 order, but it always was a question of "when" rather than "if". Wonder how many they'll order, I could imagine an initial order for 50.
I agree that ILFC have taken their time but I feel they'll commit to no more than 20-25 firm and maybe a similar amount of options.
Quoting 777ER (Reply 4): What leasing companys are not well knowen?
I think this comes down to the wording of the report as most of us know who the leasing companies are. Perhaps it's one that doesn't have a large portfolio of widebodies in which case Pembroke would come to mind. Perhaps they put the deposits from their 717 cancellations to work here? Alternatively RBS Aviation Capital have shown they're prepared to build their portfolio of NB's with total orders for 40 A320 & B737 series so perhaps it's them as they seem to be going after market share. Other lesser known Leasing Co's could include ALAFCO who've placed an order for the A350
The more I think about it there's a good chance it'll be Bavaria. They usually place their orders "UFO" and IIRC this order was placed around the time that Boeing Sales said they got 20 minute approval to meet a European Customer's price.
To me the most interesting aspect is which operator they'll be placed with. I don't believe Boeing would allocate them to a Leasing Co unless a carrier has a firm commitment to the Leasing Co given Boeing's preference to place the initial production with Airlines
Back to the original article;
Quoting Shenzhen (Thread starter): "There are some strategic airlines that we are protecting delivery positions for," Bentrott acknowledged. "We know how important they will be to the program. We don't want them to be without a delivery position at the time they are making a decision."
If Boeing don't win all the campaigns mentioned that will free delivery slots, similar to QR who had refundable deposits, but went with the A350. That leaves the question, if production is sold out to 2010, who is waiting to pick up these delivery slots if Boeing misses out on one or two of these RFPs?
AirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4038 times:
Quoting Shenzhen (Thread starter): Boeing is holding some delivery positions for a few of the big-name airlines and key customers that could announce commitments or firm orders for the 787 this year or in early 2006.
How about American Airlines and their Boeing pact?
Quoting Shenzhen (Thread starter): Singapore Airlines will get the first A380 delivered by Airbus, in late 2006. But the plane will be at least six months late. That has upset Singapore executives, and Boeing sees an opportunity with its 747 Advanced. It would use the fuel-efficient engines being developed for the 787.
Wow, I didn't realize we're only about a year away now until A380 revenue service!
Quoting Shenzhen (Thread starter): If Boeing could turn trend-setting Singapore Airlines into a customer for the passenger version of its 747 Advanced, it would send message throughout the industry that Boeing's flagship jumbo is far from dead, despite the arrival of the bigger and newer A380.
As a fan of the airplane in general I cannot help buy admire and respect the A380 but I would love to see the 747 in the ADV carry on what has to be the most recognizable aircraft to ever be produced!
Kaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2286 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3329 times:
I know that the delivery slots for Air Canada's 777s are gone, but I wonder if Boeing kept their 787 slots? If so, we probably will see them sign a deal for the 787 some time by mid 2006? They could really use the aircraft, given the conditions of their 767s.
Shenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1706 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2917 times:
Quoting QFA001 (Reply 10): FWIW, that is just A.net conjecture. AFAIK, the AC slots haven't yet been filled. Infact, Boeing still has a few more months to decide what to do: hold on for AC or offer the slots to other carriers.
The early 777-300ER slots (mid 2006) that Boeing offered AC are most defiantely gone.
Air Canada slips on Boeing order list
Delay due to labour dispute with pilots costs airline delivery slots
for two 777sBy BRENT JANG
Tuesday, July 5, 2005 Page B1
Air Canada's hopes of salvaging its $6-billion (U.S.) aircraft
order with Boeing Co. have been dealt a severe blow because the
airline is being forced to relinquish coveted delivery slots.
Boeing spokesman Brian Walker said in an interview that the aircraft
maker is busy processing orders from other airlines, so it can't
afford to save delivery slots for Air Canada's plan to buy 18 Boeing
777s and 14 Boeing 787 Dreamliners. Air Canada already has lost its
place in line for two of three Boeing 777s sought for 2006, Mr.
In mid-June, a slight majority of members of the Air Canada Pilots
Association (ACPA) rejected a proposed labour pact for flying new
Boeing jets because the pilots were upset about seniority rankings.
That forced Air Canada to cancel its order, placed in April, with
Boeing because the airline made its purchase contingent on pilots'
approval of the labour deal.
However, in a last-ditch effort to preserve its order, the carrier
asked the Canada Industrial Relations Board in late June to help
resolve the pilots' labour dispute that scuttled the planned
purchase. Air Canada wants the quasi-judicial tribunal to order a
new vote on the rejected labour contract.
An airline source said Air Canada and Boeing no longer have any
realistic hopes of reviving the original $6-billion order. Instead,
Air Canada will seek to renegotiate a new deal with Boeing because
the original order is now in tatters, he said.
Air Canada is on the verge of losing its third delivery slot in 2006
for a Boeing 777.
QFA001 From Australia, joined May 2000, 673 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2897 times:
Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 11): The early 777-300ER slots (mid 2006) that Boeing offered AC are most defiantely gone.
Well, I was wrong about it being A.net conjecture. However, AFAIK, Boeing is still holding 2006 slots for AC (despite what the article says). Now that I think about it, though, they might not be the same slots...