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What Other Airlines Could Join US/HP  
User currently offlineUPSMD11 From United States of America, joined May 2003, 819 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4710 times:
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For sake of discussion I was thinking about the HP/US merger. Would there be a benefit of them acquiring/merging with AS or one of the Hawaiian carriers?

The fleets of any of them are not really compatible except that they all have 737 components but the route structures, in my opinion, would fit nicely together.

I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion on this, if there hasn't been already. I apologize if this has been discussed but I don't remember seeing it or a specific topic on it.

Cheers,
John

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrokenrecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4682 times:

I don't see any real point with either of those.

User currently offlineXkorpyoh From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 821 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4666 times:

I would like to see Independence Air joining in as a feeder carrier and then US/HP could adopt DH's look and image. The deisgn of their counters and livery is pretty cool. Very modern and fresh. Much better than the new US livery. DH is a feeder carrier and should return to serve as one.

User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

For need of a midwest and southern hub, and fleet match (somewhat), how about Northwest?

User currently offlineUPSMD11 From United States of America, joined May 2003, 819 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4633 times:
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I had also thought about why couldn't HP/US open a hub at DFW now that DL has pulled out. Would this be a feasible option once they get on their feet?

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

Quoting Rampart (Reply 3):
For need of a midwest and southern hub, and fleet match (somewhat), how about Northwest?

Somewhat? I didn't know there was much difference, other than that NW doesn't use 737s. Common aircraft - A319 and A320, B757, A330...and Mesa, Pinnacle, and now Mesaba all fly CRJs. NW does fly the 747 but only on long hauls so most current HP stations wouldn't need to worry about them.

I know I'm forgetting an NW aircraft. Maybe a four-engine one? Help me here.

It would be very interesting to see, although HIGHLY unlikely, MSP would be basically owned by LCCs with token legacy presence, Sun Country would quickly go out of business or be swallowed up by the new NW/HP/US monster.

Currently HP and US operate 11 flights combined daily out of MSP. Therefore the MSP-PHX, MSP-LAS and MSP-CLT routes would be dominated by the new carrier, and the LAS and PHX services are extremely profitable among the snowbirds. Sun Country does fly to PHX and LAS but they could not afford a fare war with this entity - they would really have to figure something out, probably merge with someone else as the only way of survival (maybe WN??? Fleet similarities and an opening in MSP?). Although I'm not sure if WN would dare to try for MSP after the merger, regardless of their ballsy reputation, since there would be new fortress hubs in MSP and DTW (maybe MEM as well, but that would be the first to go if any), stronger than they are even now, these would be the more central hubs that HP/US currently lacks and which has been one of the main criticisms of the new merging airline. Every location in the continental United States could be reached by regional aircraft which would give this new airline incredible flexibility to maximize profits and match fleet to route.

This new airline would easily be the biggest in the United States and at least one of the top 3 in the world - I don't know any numbers but it's pretty certain - and I seriously doubt it would pass an antitrust panel. Smells too much like a monopoly such as it would be. An LCC that big would put a serious stranglehold on UA and DL who are already in enough trouble.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

AS has it's own problems and certainly wouldn't want to get involved in the HP/US situation.

AS has gone from quite the 5 star premier major regional carrier to little more than a cattle car operation IMHO. They have their own issues to work out.

AQ wouldn't want the headache for similar reasons.

HA would be crazy . . . they've got a niche market, and do well in it . . . extremely well.

Codeshare with HA, perhaps . . . interisland partnership, sure. Merger, not a chance.


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

HPRamper-NWA's fleet includes the DC-9, A32X, 757, DC-10, 33X, and 74X, and for what it's worth, the combined HP-NW-US carrier would be the nation's and world's second-largest behind American.


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4523 times:

BTW,

A bit off topic, but does anyone know how the merged US/HP would rank for its fleet size, RPM and pax carried. Both in the US and internationally?


User currently offlineJc2354 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 589 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

I still think that UA is going to come in to play with the new airline.


If not now, then when?
User currently offlinePiedmontINT From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4422 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 8):

I believe that the new US will be the 5th or 6th largest in the country, not sure about internationally


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4401 times:

Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 9):
I still think that UA is going to come in to play with the new airline.

I think you're absolutely right. UA as the international carrier, US/HP as the domestic side. UA put up $500 million for some sort of committment fee to be involved in the proposed US/UA merger, and as far as I know, they haven't received a refund. So, UA still has an alliance with US, and I don't see them as backing away from them just yet.


User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4379 times:

I know US AND SA)">HP both employ the servies of MESA, but does anyone see this continuing beyond their respective contracts? It just seems like the new carrier could run more of a WN style schedule and only fly to markets that can support a minimum of a E170 or E190. They could loosen the financial burden by having a regional strapped to their back and instead focus maybe on MidAtlantic to eventually grow with the new Embrarer fleet. I am saying this with the assumption that MidAtlantic is being allowed to move with the E170/190 plans without mainline opposition.

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
HPRamper-NWA's fleet includes the DC-9, A32X, 757, DC-10, 33X, and 74X

Ah yes, the 33X was the one I was thinking of. And I REALLY must have needed sleep for forgetting the DC-9 and DC-10. So in the end, it would just be the US/HP guys needing to learn new aircraft.

And Mesa is helping, not hurting financially. This new airline will not move to more of a WN system because that is one thing they will always be able to hold above WN - service to smaller markets. After the merger, if I want to fly TRI-SBA I can do it without going bankrupt like I would if I tried it today.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
the combined HP-NW-US carrier would be the nation's and world's second-largest behind American.

No, I just checked on that - it would be the largest by quite a bit.
AA - 710 mainline, 286 regional
NW/US/HP - 819+ mainline (NW only claims to have "over 400 aircraft" so this is the number I used, hence the + mark), 545+ regional (same deal with Pinnacle)

For a total of
AA 996
New airline 1364

So, either way you cut it, whether or not you count regional aircraft, the new airline would have AA beat.


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

If you want to count in terms of number of planes, yes, HP+NW+US would have American beaten down. If you want to count Revenue Passenger Miles, sorry, but American would still be the world's largest carrier.

Interestingly, and also quite ironically, one of the many cities where the combined carrier would be the largest carrier at an airport would be Port Columbus International Airport, which, you may recall, was America West's eastern hub once upon a time, before they decided to refocus on their west coast operations.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineLGA777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1149 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4243 times:

F9 I think would make a nice mix, the DEN Hub, the 319/318 fleet. Would just hate to see those tails disappear.

LGA777


User currently offlineAzul320 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4147 times:

I agree that Frontier being an LCC and having a hub in DEN would make a perfect candidate for the new US/HP although it is unlikely. US/HP needs to work on having a large operation somewhere in the middle of the country to bring it all together for connections being that they want to be a low cost hub and spoke carrier. A DFW startup would be a smart and more likely option for US after DL's pullout. I'm sure nothing will be decided until the merger is completely finished in a couple years.

[Edited 2005-08-28 07:54:11]


Excuse me, while I kiss the sky
User currently offlineLiedetectors From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3577 times:

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 2):
would like to see Independence Air joining in as a feeder carrier and then US/HP could adopt DH's look and image. The deisgn of their counters and livery is pretty cool. Very modern and fresh. Much better than the new US livery. DH is a feeder carrier and should return to serve as one.

DH's scheme would be good if they didnt make those circles around all the windows. It makes the windows look bigger then they actually are. Anyone who has flown on a CRJ knows they arent foolling anyone.

I doubt they would want to be a feeder for another airline, especially if UA might get involved, as some people here have said. remember that was the whole point of DH's existance. Also isnt DH trying to operate as a LCC? (i could be wrong on that)



If it was said by us, then it must be true.
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3059 times:

Quoting Azul320 (Reply 16):
I agree that Frontier being an LCC and having a hub in DEN would make a perfect candidate for the new US/HP although it is unlikely. US/HP needs to work on having a large operation somewhere in the middle of the country to bring it all together for connections being that they want to be a low cost hub and spoke carrier. A DFW startup would be a smart and more likely option for US after DL's pullout.

I personally would also like to see some kind of merger between the new US and F9, good fleet commonality. But didn't I hear that DEN has really high fees? Is that the reason that WN doesn't serve DEN?

F9 isn't merging with anyone though, they have a good home market with a lot of very loyal customers, and they are extremely profitable right now...why fix what ain't broken?

And in hindsight...I wasn't trying to put together any kind of viable argument or analysis of a US/NW merger - I was basically just putting some of my random thoughts down. A true analysis would be a thread of its own - a BIG one. It's just such a broad subject, it would make the HP/US merger look like child's play.


User currently offlineFlyBoy84 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 384 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

Quoting Azul320 (Reply 16):
US/HP needs to work on having a large operation somewhere in the middle of the country to bring it all together for connections being that they want to be a low cost hub and spoke carrier.

If it's a hub in the middle of the country that US needs, there are plenty of empty gates at STL. Nobody in their right mind would go up against AA at DFW!

People in this forum talk about AA's presence here, but it's mostly regional jet service. I believe they're much more interested in fortifying their real hubs (DFW, ORD, MIA, JFK).

On another thread, I mentioned that I didn't see how or why US would have a hub in the midwest when they can bank on their alliance with UA to bridge the gap. But seeing the big hole they have in the middle of the map, a centrally located hub might make sense somewhere down the line - if they can actually make the merger work.

STL is completing work on the world's stupidest airfield plan with a runway that sticks out two miles west of the terminal, so taxiing distance will affect fuel consumption. And the cost of the runway will have to be passed on to passengers, but we do have plenty of unused gates!


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

STL might work out. As for DFW, why wouldn't anyone want to take on AA? Bring in an airline with a lot lower domestic fares, would a fare war be a possibility? How long could AA afford to drop their prices THAT low?

As for UA...will US/HP really need that partnership? Or are they stuck with it being in the Star Alliance? I would think with the good domestic network now, they could otherwise cut ties and try to quicken the demise of UA. I'm sure after the merger UA will need US much more than vice versa.


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 943 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 20):
As for UA...will US/HP really need that partnership? Or are they stuck with it being in the Star Alliance?

They're stuck with it until they decide to be a real LCC and avoid being in an alliance.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2955 times:

So, in the long run, would they be better off in an alliance or out of one? With the US routes to Europe and the Caribbean, does the new airline really need to be in such an organization, or could they ditch that and successfully possibly only codeshare with a few select very large airlines that could provide global service?

On another note, is the Hawaiian codeshare done for with the new and expanding Hawaii service? And will Hawaiian suffer at all from it?


User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2928 times:

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 15):
F9 I think would make a nice mix, the DEN Hub

Bad idea. You have three hubs within just a few hundred miles of each other. The only carriers that would be a good fit with F9 are either B6 or DH. The difference is that B6 can do it all without anyone else, and DH could use a good connecting hub to the west. F9 could use the connections along the east coast too. Too bad none of this will ever happen.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2918 times:

Actually I think F9 and B6 is an intriguing idea - very similar fleets on top of the fact that they are two of the three most profitable domestic airlines. If they combined forces, a solid hub on each half of the country, and rabidly loyal customers...how could they go wrong?

User currently offlineBrokenrecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 20):
As for UA...will US/HP really need that partnership? Or are they stuck with it being in the Star Alliance? I would think with the good domestic network now, they could otherwise cut ties and try to quicken the demise of UA. I'm sure after the merger UA will need US much more than vice versa.

I'm almost positive that there will be less and less codeshare flights between US and UA once everything is complete. Reason I say that is that US relied on UA to ferry passengers past the midwest and around the west coast for the most part. With HP covering much of the same area, that will not be required.

I for one love the Star Alliance involvement as it allows me to earn miles when I fly to just about anywhere internationally.


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