Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Airlines, And The South Pole  
User currently offlineUAcosCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10700 times:

Are there any airlines that fly over antarctica or the South Pole in general, close to it?, kind of like a polar route, but the south pole.

I flew around the world a year ago and was wondering if one could go the other way.

Thanks

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10652 times:

Aerolíneas Argentinas operates the southernmost (scheduled) commercial route in the world: BUE-AKL, around S50° - S55°.
JNB-SYD with QF/SA probably ranks second, which goes far until S45°.

Commercial flights are not allowed to overfly Antartica, for security reasons.
Boeing flew two years ago with 773ER from SYD to GIG, which crossed exactly the south pole.

[Edited 2005-08-29 22:19:39]


Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10620 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 1):
Commercial flights are not allowed to overfly Antartica, for security reasons.

What security reasons?
I always heard it was because Antarctica is outside the ETOPs range.

Can someone confirm this?

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10596 times:

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 2):
What security reasons?
I always heard it was because Antarctica is outside the ETOPs range.

Yes, there's no ETOPS rating for the Southern Pacific. That's why AR and LA fly it with quads. (AR 747/A340, LA A340).


Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD-11 Junkie



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3956 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10580 times:

I know that at one time both NZ and QF had sightseeing flights over Antarctica. Indeed the tragic crash of an NZ DC-10 into Mt. Erebus in 79, comes to mind in regards to flights over Antarctica.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineUALdispatch From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10542 times:

Just off the top of my head without running any numbers i can only think of maybe no suitable alternates within close range?? The South Pole doesnt have the same benefit of having established Polar tracks and vast amount of Russian/Canadian Airspace within close distance in the event of an emergency.

Just my .02 cents



FLY UNITED AIRLINES AND THE FRIENDLY SKIES
User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10538 times:

777DadanJr,
Most part of Antartica is indeed out of the highest ETOPS range (330-minute ETOPS, ie 773ER). But ETOPS is applicable only for twin-engine aircraft.

Thus, hypothetically, 747, 340 and 380 should be allowed to overfly there, but if an emergency should happen, that wouldn't just be just like in the Arctic, with an easy access from Russia, Canada, Greenland, Alaska...
South America, South Africa and Australia are just damn far from Antartica for an emergency.
And more, it's a hilly place, differently from the Arctic.

In southern hemisphere summer, it used to have charter flights by Qantas to Antartica, the route was SYD-SYD:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Craig Murray
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Craig Murray



Maybe it should be created a new word: EFOPS: "Extended-Range Four-Engine Operations"   

[Edited 2005-08-29 22:50:34]


Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 38
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10489 times:

Brasuca,

Boeing didn't take its 777-300ER anywhere near the south pole flying to GIG. It remained about as far from the south pole as New York is from London, or so it seemed from the map that came with the press release.

Antares


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10436 times:

Antares,
I'm not based in any map. Give me more details, please, because Boeing shows they did.



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 38
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10370 times:

Brasuca,

I'm travelling today. There were copious reports in the flight magazines and you should also go to Boeing.com and access the news release archives.

The maps showed the flight stayed well north the Antarctic circle, which was pretty much as expected, since that gets the tail winds as well as stays in touch with alternates like Papeete, Easter Island and then across Chile etc.

When Boeing first announced the proving flights they did show a route over the polar wastes, but it was all BS as most of those preliminary announcements tend to be, and from anyone, not just Boeing.

Antares


User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10348 times:

Can any one correct me if I am wrong, but was AR the first airline to fly the "transpolar" route almost 20 years ago from Rio Gallegos??

User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10308 times:

How long is the QF SYD-SYD flight?
They probably can't stay much longer then 30-60mins before starting
the return to SYD,can they?
Does QF still operate these flights?
I assume that only the windowseats are sold on these flights?
What's the point in purchasing an antartic sightseeing flight if you're not
sitting by the window.


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6835 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10312 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 7):
It remained about as far from the south pole as New York is from London, or so it seemed from the map that came with the press release.

JFK-LHR = 5554 km

Antarctic Circle to South Pole = 2617 km, about

How far did Boeing's 773 get from its alternates?

[Edited 2005-08-29 23:57:09]

User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10284 times:

KLMCedric,

People rotate between seats to ensure everyone gets a view. Look it up with Google. And also Croydon Travel, the Melbourne travel firm that charters the flights.

I personally recommend taking one or more of them. Outstanding value.

As far as the Argentinian flights go, they did cross part of the polar ice on some flights especially westbound, as the refuelling stop put them much closer to Antarctica than today's non-stops from Santiago or Buneos Aires to Auckland.

However crossing into Antartica and going over the south pole are two things very far apart, as you will see if you turn a globe upside down and do a bit of research.

OK my much delyaed flight looks like boarding.

Antares


User currently offlineTrolley Dolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10236 times:

SAA looked at the prospect of operating a 744 on the Cape Town to Christchurch route, which is the only route that goes almost directly over the south pole. This has been flown before with special one-off flights, like the Pan Am 747SP Flight 50 transpolar service, but there is a black spot in the centre of the route where if anying happened, there would be no way of the 744 making to the destination or back to departure point.

As mentioned, the QF flighstseeing trips are the only ones that operate on a commerical basis over the Antarctic continent. That said, it's common for icebergs to be seen on the New Zealand-South American routes and to cross pack ice.

The QF flights spend about 4 hours getting to the ice, 4 hours over the ice at a minimum altitude of 10,000ft or 2,000ft higher than the highest point within 200kms, and then 4 hours getting back home.


User currently offlineLegendDC9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10219 times:

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 14):
As mentioned, the QF flighstseeing trips are the only ones that operate on a commerical basis over the Antarctic continent. That said, it's common for icebergs to be seen on the New Zealand-South American routes and to cross pack ice.

The QF flights spend about 4 hours getting to the ice, 4 hours over the ice at a minimum altitude of 10,000ft or 2,000ft higher than the highest point within 200kms, and then 4 hours getting back home.

That sounds way too cool. Will have to check this thing out. Thanks!


User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10146 times:

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 14):

As mentioned, the QF flighstseeing trips are the only ones that operate on a commerical basis over the Antarctic continent.

They might be the only airline flights over the Antarctic continent, but you can actually fly to Antarctica and land on the continent through Adventure Network International's Lockheed Hercules service from Punta Arenas, Chile (Ive just found out they also use a chartered IL-76 at times)..this flight brings mountaineers and other adventurers to the continent at a place called Patriot Hills, and from there, Twin Otters fly within the continent to various destinations...almost like a mini-hub! Such trips are very expensive however, usually tens of thousands of dollars...
http://www.adventure-network.com

Here's a great picture of the IL-76 on finals in Antarctica...

http://tilenius.homestead.com/southpole/ani123.html

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10119 times:

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 3):
Yes, there's no ETOPS rating for the Southern Pacific

Not so much a security issue as it is a safety issue. I'd be interested to know what "security" reasons he speaks of.


User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2407 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10121 times:

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 4):
I know that at one time both NZ and QF had sightseeing flights over Antarctica

LAN does it sometimes. the last flight I was aware of, they chartered a 340 and sold only the window seat for watching both Antartica and the Stars (I don't remember well, but I think that there was some astronomical event at the time, an eclipse or something).

Actually, the last LA accident (BAE146 in Puerto Williams), it was after an Antartic flight. Avant airlines in the 90s also organized some flights over Antartica, departing from Punta Arenas on a 732

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 10):
Can any one correct me if I am wrong, but was AR the first airline to fly the "transpolar" route almost 20 years ago from Rio Gallegos??

No, it was Lan Chile in the 70s with a 707. The flight was Punta Arenas-Sydney (PUQ-SYD). It's actually some event recalled at their web site. Regular flights? probably for AR.

Regards )( ARCANO



in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
User currently offlineUAcosCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10048 times:

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 11):
I assume that only the windowseats are sold on these flights?
What's the point in purchasing an antartic sightseeing flight if you're not
sitting by the window.

Good point.

Thanks all for a wonderful read. You all provided me with a lot of info. I might look into the QF deal and see if any have sightseeing tours anymore. The IL-76 would be the way to go, but a bit out of the price range. Smile


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
There were copious reports in the flight magazines

Which ones?

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
you should also go to Boeing.com and access the news release archives.

I will. Thanks.

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 14):
SAA looked at the prospect of operating a 744 on the Cape Town to Christchurch route

Nothing else than propaganda. This route wouldn't ever be profitable.

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 17):
Not so much a security issue as it is a safety issue. I'd be interested to know what "security" reasons he speaks of.

As far as I know, security and safety are synonymous. Otherwise, prove it to me.



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9936 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 6):
In southern hemisphere summer, it used to have charter flights by Qantas to Antartica, the route was SYD-SYD:



These flights are still operated. They are sold by a company called Croydon Travel. See their website: http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 11):
How long is the QF SYD-SYD flight?
They probably can't stay much longer then 30-60mins before starting
the return to SYD,can they?
Does QF still operate these flights?
I assume that only the windowseats are sold on these flights?
What's the point in purchasing an antartic sightseeing flight if you're not
sitting by the window.

The flight lasts for about 13 hours, including nearly 4 hours over the Antarctic. All seats are sold - see http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/prices.html for details. There is a rotation system. The very centre seats don't rotate, but you are still able to walk around the cabin and get window views - people are generally very accomodating.

I went on the February 13th Sydney flight this year (I really should put up a trip report at some stage) - it was absolutely amazing. The view was absolutely spectacular. It was just amazing to see the vast expanse of the place. Words really can't describe it.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 20):
As far as I know, security and safety are synonymous.

Generally in English, safety refers to the physical risk of something, while security refers to protecting something. For instance, ETOPS is a safety issue. Flying over a military base is a security issue. It's actually quite difficult to explain, but I hope you get what I mean...

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineHKGKaiTak From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9870 times:

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 21):
These flights are still operated. They are sold by a company called Croydon Travel. See their website: http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/

Croydon Travel leases a 744 from QF to operate these flights.

If you happen to be a travel agent and wait until 1-2 weeks prior to departure, Croydon usually releases some killer deals ... I remember some extremely cheap deals for this year's flights, something in the region of AUD$300. Where else can you get a ride in a 744 for so long for so cheap?

Incidentally, Croydon Travel is part of the Australian Pacific Touring group of companies, and another one of its brands Captain's Choice also leases 744s from QF for its tours - look out for QF 744s in faraway parts of Africa ...  Smile



4 Engines 4 LongHaul
User currently offlineTrolley Dolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9815 times:

Brasuca. Interesting comment about the NZ to South Africa link being "propaganda". There is the real prospect for charters between the two countries at times of rugby tests. There are also very strong cultural, economic and social links between NZ and South Africa. While I agree with you that the route would not be commercially vaiable on a scheduled basis, the fact they investigated the technicalities of the route and came up with the safety issue does not mean their findings should be dismissed.

Also, the QF ops, with the exception of the flightseeing trips operated over the ice, are not permitted to go further than 60s. This can pose challenges on the JNB-SYD run where they get down to 57s or more. This is a similar to the depth of flight on the BUE-AKL flights.

The inflight magazines Anatres refers to is the Qantas "Airways" magazine. I've seen the articles over the years.


User currently offlineBongo From Colombia, joined Oct 2003, 1863 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7870 times:

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 2):
What security reasons?
I always heard it was because Antarctica is outside the ETOPs range.

That is security reasons !



MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
25 Yhmfan : I think Brasuca meant "Safety" not "Security".
26 Post contains links and images MD11junkie : I would love to see your source for that! Wikipedia does not agree with you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerolineas_Argentinas Cheers! Gastón - The
27 Antiuser : Both words in portuguese translate to the same term - segurança. English dictionaries list both words as synonyms, but it's customary to use the dis
28 Brasuca : Ok. Now I accept I really meant "Safety" instead of "Security". Thanks for all explanations and apologies as English is not my native language.
29 Post contains images Yhmfan : No need to apologize!!! Your English is a hell of a lot better than my portuguese!!
30 Post contains links Arcano : Your article said that AR was the first of setting a regulart flight, does not say that it was the first one that communicated Australia with South A
31 UAcosCS : Cant find if QF does those flights anymore. Maybe I will try and contact QF and ask. Went web site and it wasn't listed. Thanks for all the info on th
32 Post contains images MD11junkie : I have better things to worry than LAN - they don't deserve more than the 5 minutes I dedicate writing my posts - I don't want to read you blaming AR
33 Post contains links Marambio : I am afraid you are not completely right on that one. Aerolíneas Argentinas operated for some 20 years the so-called Transpolar Route via Río Galle
34 Antares : Mariambo, I'm just a bit puzzled by your reference to the only supply flights between Antartica and another continent. We see regular flights by Starl
35 VirginFlyer : Qantas don't actually market the flights themselves, so you won't find much (if any) reference to them on their website. The crew certainly enjoy the
36 Marambio : Good evening Antares, I by no means tried to say Argentina is the only country to feed its Antarctic bases by air. What I really meant, was that Argen
37 Antares : Mariambo, Thanks for the info. It would be great to take the shuttle. I don't have up to date information, but I have seen press references here to pl
38 ZK-NBT : They recieved the A342's in 1999, second hand.
39 Post contains links and images A342 : The Lockheed Starlifter is the C-141, right? But the only customer was the USAF and the last aircraft were phased out this year and flown to Davis-Mo
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Airlines And The Cultural F/A Uniforms posted Tue Sep 5 2006 00:44:14 by TwoLz2Rn
Flying To The South Pole Or Over. posted Thu May 4 2006 14:09:14 by Deaphen
Middle Eastern Airlines And The B737 posted Tue Mar 21 2006 18:30:56 by Cedars747
Continental Airlines And The L-1011 posted Wed Nov 2 2005 19:10:00 by Dasheighty
Commercial Routes Over The South Pole. posted Mon Oct 10 2005 09:46:22 by Himmat01
Singapore Airlines And The Concorde posted Sun Jul 10 2005 20:00:04 by Fbm3rd
European Major Airlines And The 787 posted Sun Feb 6 2005 17:11:28 by RootsAir
US Airlines And The Middle East posted Sat Dec 25 2004 10:58:02 by Kkfla737
American Airlines And The Home Alone Movies posted Tue Oct 26 2004 17:28:18 by Planespotting
United Airlines And The 727? posted Sat Oct 16 2004 20:36:29 by Aa777jr
Japan Airlines And The Garden Jets. posted Fri Apr 9 2010 22:33:25 by SexyAdonis
Singapore Airlines And The 757 posted Thu Mar 25 2010 19:55:52 by vheca
American Airlines And The Internet posted Tue Jan 6 2009 08:33:22 by BoeingForEver