Brasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9008 times:
Aerolíneas Argentinas operates the southernmost (scheduled) commercial route in the world: BUE-AKL, around S50° - S55°.
JNB-SYD with QF/SA probably ranks second, which goes far until S45°.
Commercial flights are not allowed to overfly Antartica, for security reasons.
Boeing flew two years ago with 773ER from SYD to GIG, which crossed exactly the south pole.
777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 13 Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8976 times:
Quoting Brasuca (Reply 1): Commercial flights are not allowed to overfly Antartica, for security reasons.
What security reasons?
I always heard it was because Antarctica is outside the ETOPs range.
Can someone confirm this?
Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
Thomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3723 posts, RR: 25 Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8936 times:
I know that at one time both NZ and QF had sightseeing flights over Antarctica. Indeed the tragic crash of an NZ DC-10 into Mt. Erebus in 79, comes to mind in regards to flights over Antarctica.
UALdispatch From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 48 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8898 times:
Just off the top of my head without running any numbers i can only think of maybe no suitable alternates within close range?? The South Pole doesnt have the same benefit of having established Polar tracks and vast amount of Russian/Canadian Airspace within close distance in the event of an emergency.
Brasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 12 Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8894 times:
777DadanJr,
Most part of Antartica is indeed out of the highest ETOPS range (330-minute ETOPS, ie 773ER). But ETOPS is applicable only for twin-engine aircraft.
Thus, hypothetically, 747, 340 and 380 should be allowed to overfly there, but if an emergency should happen, that wouldn't just be just like in the Arctic, with an easy access from Russia, Canada, Greenland, Alaska...
South America, South Africa and Australia are just damn far from Antartica for an emergency.
And more, it's a hilly place, differently from the Arctic.
In southern hemisphere summer, it used to have charter flights by Qantas to Antartica, the route was SYD-SYD:
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8845 times:
Brasuca,
Boeing didn't take its 777-300ER anywhere near the south pole flying to GIG. It remained about as far from the south pole as New York is from London, or so it seemed from the map that came with the press release.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8726 times:
Brasuca,
I'm travelling today. There were copious reports in the flight magazines and you should also go to Boeing.com and access the news release archives.
The maps showed the flight stayed well north the Antarctic circle, which was pretty much as expected, since that gets the tail winds as well as stays in touch with alternates like Papeete, Easter Island and then across Chile etc.
When Boeing first announced the proving flights they did show a route over the polar wastes, but it was all BS as most of those preliminary announcements tend to be, and from anyone, not just Boeing.
KLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 794 posts, RR: 24 Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8664 times:
How long is the QF SYD-SYD flight?
They probably can't stay much longer then 30-60mins before starting
the return to SYD,can they?
Does QF still operate these flights?
I assume that only the windowseats are sold on these flights?
What's the point in purchasing an antartic sightseeing flight if you're not
sitting by the window.
Timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6465 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8668 times:
Quoting Antares (Reply 7): It remained about as far from the south pole as New York is from London, or so it seemed from the map that came with the press release.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8640 times:
KLMCedric,
People rotate between seats to ensure everyone gets a view. Look it up with Google. And also Croydon Travel, the Melbourne travel firm that charters the flights.
I personally recommend taking one or more of them. Outstanding value.
As far as the Argentinian flights go, they did cross part of the polar ice on some flights especially westbound, as the refuelling stop put them much closer to Antarctica than today's non-stops from Santiago or Buneos Aires to Auckland.
However crossing into Antartica and going over the south pole are two things very far apart, as you will see if you turn a globe upside down and do a bit of research.
Trolley Dolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8592 times:
SAA looked at the prospect of operating a 744 on the Cape Town to Christchurch route, which is the only route that goes almost directly over the south pole. This has been flown before with special one-off flights, like the Pan Am 747SP Flight 50 transpolar service, but there is a black spot in the centre of the route where if anying happened, there would be no way of the 744 making to the destination or back to departure point.
As mentioned, the QF flighstseeing trips are the only ones that operate on a commerical basis over the Antarctic continent. That said, it's common for icebergs to be seen on the New Zealand-South American routes and to cross pack ice.
The QF flights spend about 4 hours getting to the ice, 4 hours over the ice at a minimum altitude of 10,000ft or 2,000ft higher than the highest point within 200kms, and then 4 hours getting back home.
LegendDC9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8575 times:
Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 14): As mentioned, the QF flighstseeing trips are the only ones that operate on a commerical basis over the Antarctic continent. That said, it's common for icebergs to be seen on the New Zealand-South American routes and to cross pack ice.
The QF flights spend about 4 hours getting to the ice, 4 hours over the ice at a minimum altitude of 10,000ft or 2,000ft higher than the highest point within 200kms, and then 4 hours getting back home.
That sounds way too cool. Will have to check this thing out. Thanks!
USAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 54 Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8502 times:
Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 14):
As mentioned, the QF flighstseeing trips are the only ones that operate on a commerical basis over the Antarctic continent.
They might be the only airline flights over the Antarctic continent, but you can actually fly to Antarctica and land on the continent through Adventure Network International's Lockheed Hercules service from Punta Arenas, Chile (Ive just found out they also use a chartered IL-76 at times)..this flight brings mountaineers and other adventurers to the continent at a place called Patriot Hills, and from there, Twin Otters fly within the continent to various destinations...almost like a mini-hub! Such trips are very expensive however, usually tens of thousands of dollars... http://www.adventure-network.com
Arcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2397 posts, RR: 26 Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8477 times:
Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 4): I know that at one time both NZ and QF had sightseeing flights over Antarctica
LAN does it sometimes. the last flight I was aware of, they chartered a 340 and sold only the window seat for watching both Antartica and the Stars (I don't remember well, but I think that there was some astronomical event at the time, an eclipse or something).
Actually, the last LA accident (BAE146 in Puerto Williams), it was after an Antartic flight. Avant airlines in the 90s also organized some flights over Antartica, departing from Punta Arenas on a 732
Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 10): Can any one correct me if I am wrong, but was AR the first airline to fly the "transpolar" route almost 20 years ago from Rio Gallegos??
No, it was Lan Chile in the 70s with a 707. The flight was Punta Arenas-Sydney (PUQ-SYD). It's actually some event recalled at their web site. Regular flights? probably for AR.
Regards )( ARCANO
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
UAcosCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8404 times:
Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 11): I assume that only the windowseats are sold on these flights?
What's the point in purchasing an antartic sightseeing flight if you're not
sitting by the window.
Good point.
Thanks all for a wonderful read. You all provided me with a lot of info. I might look into the QF deal and see if any have sightseeing tours anymore. The IL-76 would be the way to go, but a bit out of the price range.
Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 11): How long is the QF SYD-SYD flight?
They probably can't stay much longer then 30-60mins before starting
the return to SYD,can they?
Does QF still operate these flights?
I assume that only the windowseats are sold on these flights?
What's the point in purchasing an antartic sightseeing flight if you're not
sitting by the window.
The flight lasts for about 13 hours, including nearly 4 hours over the Antarctic. All seats are sold - see http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/prices.html for details. There is a rotation system. The very centre seats don't rotate, but you are still able to walk around the cabin and get window views - people are generally very accomodating.
I went on the February 13th Sydney flight this year (I really should put up a trip report at some stage) - it was absolutely amazing. The view was absolutely spectacular. It was just amazing to see the vast expanse of the place. Words really can't describe it.
Quoting Brasuca (Reply 20): As far as I know, security and safety are synonymous.
Generally in English, safety refers to the physical risk of something, while security refers to protecting something. For instance, ETOPS is a safety issue. Flying over a military base is a security issue. It's actually quite difficult to explain, but I hope you get what I mean...
V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
Croydon Travel leases a 744 from QF to operate these flights.
If you happen to be a travel agent and wait until 1-2 weeks prior to departure, Croydon usually releases some killer deals ... I remember some extremely cheap deals for this year's flights, something in the region of AUD$300. Where else can you get a ride in a 744 for so long for so cheap?
Incidentally, Croydon Travel is part of the Australian Pacific Touring group of companies, and another one of its brands Captain's Choice also leases 744s from QF for its tours - look out for QF 744s in faraway parts of Africa ...
Trolley Dolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8171 times:
Brasuca. Interesting comment about the NZ to South Africa link being "propaganda". There is the real prospect for charters between the two countries at times of rugby tests. There are also very strong cultural, economic and social links between NZ and South Africa. While I agree with you that the route would not be commercially vaiable on a scheduled basis, the fact they investigated the technicalities of the route and came up with the safety issue does not mean their findings should be dismissed.
Also, the QF ops, with the exception of the flightseeing trips operated over the ice, are not permitted to go further than 60s. This can pose challenges on the JNB-SYD run where they get down to 57s or more. This is a similar to the depth of flight on the BUE-AKL flights.
The inflight magazines Anatres refers to is the Qantas "Airways" magazine. I've seen the articles over the years.
Bongo From Colombia, joined Oct 2003, 1858 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6226 times:
Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 2): What security reasons?
I always heard it was because Antarctica is outside the ETOPs range.
That is security reasons !
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
25 Yhmfan: I think Brasuca meant "Safety" not "Security".
26 MD11junkie: I would love to see your source for that! Wikipedia does not agree with you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerolineas_Argentinas Cheers! Gastón - The
27 Antiuser: Both words in portuguese translate to the same term - segurança. English dictionaries list both words as synonyms, but it's customary to use the dis
28 Brasuca: Ok. Now I accept I really meant "Safety" instead of "Security". Thanks for all explanations and apologies as English is not my native language.
29 Yhmfan: No need to apologize!!! Your English is a hell of a lot better than my portuguese!!
30 Arcano: Your article said that AR was the first of setting a regulart flight, does not say that it was the first one that communicated Australia with South A
31 UAcosCS: Cant find if QF does those flights anymore. Maybe I will try and contact QF and ask. Went web site and it wasn't listed. Thanks for all the info on th
32 MD11junkie: I have better things to worry than LAN - they don't deserve more than the 5 minutes I dedicate writing my posts - I don't want to read you blaming AR
33 Marambio: I am afraid you are not completely right on that one. Aerolíneas Argentinas operated for some 20 years the so-called Transpolar Route via Río Galle
34 Antares: Mariambo, I'm just a bit puzzled by your reference to the only supply flights between Antartica and another continent. We see regular flights by Starl
35 VirginFlyer: Qantas don't actually market the flights themselves, so you won't find much (if any) reference to them on their website. The crew certainly enjoy the
36 Marambio: Good evening Antares, I by no means tried to say Argentina is the only country to feed its Antarctic bases by air. What I really meant, was that Argen
37 Antares: Mariambo, Thanks for the info. It would be great to take the shuttle. I don't have up to date information, but I have seen press references here to pl
38 ZK-NBT: They recieved the A342's in 1999, second hand.
39 A342: The Lockheed Starlifter is the C-141, right? But the only customer was the USAF and the last aircraft were phased out this year and flown to Davis-Mo
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