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Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs  
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4061 posts, RR: 5
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10793 times:

While there has been talk for ages about how painful the BAe 146/Avro RJs are maintenancewise, how slow they are, how cramped they are etc. etc., the Lufthansa group is adding more and more of them, even rather knackered 3rd hand 146s. Eurowings has added quite a few ex Air UK 146s recently, Swiss seems to have reverted their plans under Lufthansa's guidance and now dump the ERJ145s in favour of more ex BACX RJ100s. Lufthansa itself has 18 RJ85s, so altogether the group must now be operating more than 50 of those birds.

While this all might very well be just an interim solution after the Dornier 728 desaster, I would be interested to know why Lufthansa is so keen on the type - after all, they do not need 50+ for a few routes to LCY or FLR ? Is it because they would have to operate more A319 or 737-500s at mainline, while the RJ100s/146-300 can be operated by the subsidiaries ?

One other thing that makes me wonder is if the growth of the fleet is an indication that Lufthansa is willing to wait for the Bombardier C-Series instead of doing the obvious and order some Embraer 175/190s right now ? Particularly the 146s are approaching 20years, so they will not be around for that much longer.

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEDDM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

I guess they don't do it for the reason I would.. because it's the most beautiful narrowbody airplane ever!

User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4696 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10683 times:

It is probably a combination between lack of suitable alternative new designs and cheap leasing/ acquisition costs, which offset higher operating costs. From what has been available publicly, LH does not seem to be overly excited about the EMB-190 or the CRJ-900.


Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10462 times:

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 2):
It is probably a combination between lack of suitable alternative new designs and cheap leasing/ acquisition costs, which offset higher operating costs. From what has been available publicly, LH does not seem to be overly excited about the EMB-190 or the CRJ-900.

i think Tristar hit the nail on the head with his statement. as a matter of fact, Air Dolomiti, which recently took 5 BAe146s, only needed 4. but due to their rather low technical reliability they got a fifth as an operation spare. they are so seriously cheap to get that you can have them sit idle on the ground.

as regards the CRJ900, it actually is currently under consideration to join the LH group fleet rather soon than late. anyone would like to venture a guess which airline would take them?  Wink

cheers



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineBostonGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 514 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10446 times:

I love the 146/Avro!

Gorgeous on the outside... my only flights on 146's have been 5 abreast seating. Quite comfy.


User currently offlineDstc47 From Ireland, joined Sep 1999, 1490 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10433 times:

Really, really cheap to lease. Plenty available.

User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10342 times:

Hi!

I know some people look to the BAe146 has an "abortion", but infact the airplane is great and very reliable. In Sep. 2004 I flew SWISS RJ85's from LIS/GVA/LIS and I was curious to see how it was! Well, I had a great fun flying the plane, very silent, very steady on flight, maybe not going so high has other airliners, I think we were at FL270, but excelent experience both ways!!! Anyway I can understand why LH and LX love that airplane!!!
Regards


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10296 times:

Maybe its because it does its job very well.

Sure it isn't the most startling plane. But it does the job, and does it well.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7303 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10277 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 6):
infact the airplane is great and very reliable

The 146 reliable?

Its slow, uncomfortable in a 3+3 layout, and a maintenance disaster area.

Is it true that the 146 jet engines were originally designed as Tank engines?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10181 times:

I love the Avros. Recently flew an SN RJ85 from LHR to BRU and loved the experience. The carriers who configure them 2-3 get my respect because that configuration is very comfortable.

By the way, I flew in July 1995 from FRA to LCY and I cannot remember what type it was (I was younger and not so much into airplanes). Could it have been an AVRO? All I remember is that I thought it was a cool airplane!



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4061 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10139 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
By the way, I flew in July 1995 from FRA to LCY and I cannot remember what type it was (I was younger and not so much into airplanes). Could it have been an AVRO? All I remember is that I thought it was a cool airplane!

Back then, the route was operated by Business Air (today bmi regional) on behalf of Lufthansa with a BAe 146-200.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
Is it true that the 146 jet engines were originally designed as Tank engines?

APUs.

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 5):
Really, really cheap to lease. Plenty availab

How does it compare with the Fokker 100 ? Those are dirt cheap as well, faster ,more comfy and probably the smaller MNX nightmare compared to the 146. Austrian Arrows went for the Fokker 100s (well, they already operated Fokker 70s).

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 3):

as regards the CRJ900, it actually is currently under consideration to join the LH group fleet rather soon than late. anyone would like to venture a guess which airline would take them?

Given that the CR7 was supposed to be a step-gap measure when it was ordered, that would be quite an interesting development.


User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10056 times:

Well i still think it's pretty but flying in it is rather a pain in the ass.
I didn't find it quiet at all but it was comfy (Eurowings leather (or fake leather?) seats).
Then again: It seemed to be an old airplane which had seen a LOT of smokers... everything was in this yellowish cigarette smoke color and you could still smell the smoke. Yuck!



There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10024 times:

Hi!

The DC-3 was also very slow and their 2-2 configuration was unconfortable too and they're still flying!!!!
regards


User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4317 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9933 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
The 146 reliable?

Its slow, uncomfortable in a 3+3 layout, and a maintenance disaster area.

But the layout I have always seen is 2+3, not 3+3 and its quite comfortable. Here at Air Wisconsin we have a few of them that have been workhorses for ever. Its been pretty reliable here, and in fact its all our senior pilots who have been here for 20 years who fly it, and with the downsizing of the fleet, they have to go to RJ's and most of them would rather fly the 146 than an RJ. Its got great performance as well out of difficult airports.


User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1672 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9845 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 13):
most of them would rather fly the 146 than an RJ

Wild ass guess: it pays more?

mrocktor


User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4317 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9715 times:

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
Wild ass guess: it pays more?

Not so much that, but most of the pilots flying our 146 have never flown a glass cockpitted airplane in their lives. The automation is over some of their heads, and learning to program the CRJ FMS is a challenge for some of them.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
uncomfortable in a 3+3 layout

LH and Swiss have a 2-3 layout. This is very comfortable. This plane is great to fly. Quiet and no wings which are in the way of your view out of the window. Best RJ.


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9668 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 16):
LH and Swiss have a 2-3 layout

Correction: the AR8's of LH have a 3-3 layout.

Also BACX its AR1's have a 3-3 layout.

Frederic


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9633 times:

Quoting Sabena 690 (Reply 17):
Correction: the AR8's of LH have a 3-3 layout.

Thanx for the info. This is really not comfi. But the Swiss 2-3 is really great, far better than any RJ (EMB 145 or CRJ etc.).


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9622 times:

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 10):
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
Is it true that the 146 jet engines were originally designed as Tank engines?

APUs.

I know it powered these aircraft;

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dennis Wong
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marty McGuire


. . . but can someone tell me a refererence or a link to prove this engine which can produce as much as seven thousand five hundred horsepower was ever an APU. Or is that just an urban legend.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineGg190 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9528 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
. . . but can someone tell me a refererence or a link to prove this engine which can produce as much as seven thousand five hundred horsepower was ever an APU. Or is that just an urban legend.

It think it is just a legend. I heard a rumor it was an APU design for the 767, but I'm sure someone proved it wrong.

I'm sure that the Avco/Textron lycoming started life as a power-plant for helicopters, which as was pointed out it is still used for.


User currently offlineYOWguy From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9452 times:

Quote:
In 1969, Avco Lycoming began a program to develop the "ALF 502", a turbofan to power large business jets and small airliners, based on the company's T55 turboshaft for the Boeing Chinook helicopter.

The initial production series, the "ALF 502L", was certificated in 1980. It is a two-shaft geared front-fan engine, featuring a fan with two LP booster stages; an HP compressor with seven axial stages, followed by a single centrifugal stage; an annular combustion chamber; a two-stage aircooled HP turbine; and a two-stage LP turbine. A thrust reverser can be mounted, and the fan inlet is de-iced by engine bleed air. The initial version had a maximum takeoff thrust of 33.36 kN (3,400 kgp / 7,500 lbf). ALF 502L series engines power the Canadair Challenger 600 twin-engine business jet.

variant max thrust aircraft
ALF 502R-3 0.89 BAe 146

ALF 502R-5 0.93 BAe 146
ALF 502R-5 1.00 BAe 146


User currently offlineGg190 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9417 times:

Thanks YOWguy, knew I'd seen somewhere that it was originally developed for a helicopter.

Anyone know why a thrust reverser was never installed on any 146/avro engines? Is it just that it never needed them, it's STOL performance is good enough without them?


User currently offlineBomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9272 times:

I remember flying on the BEA a few years back on a United Airlines flight from Jackson Hole, WY to Denver. Very nice flight. Seemed comfortable back then, but I've grown to 6' 2" over the years. But a great flight none the less.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ryan Richter - Rocky Mountain Aviation Photos




AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9259 times:

Quoting Gg190 (Reply 22):
Anyone know why a thrust reverser was never installed on any 146/avro engines?

No thrust = no thrust to reverse.

Just kidding. I really liked the BAe-146. It was fun to fly, even if a bit doggy. No speed, no rate of climb. (we used to joke about getting a descend-only TCAS because you could not climb) I flew the Huey with the Lycoming T-53 but never flew the T-55. Don't have a real high opinion of the ALF-502 as two of my three jet engine failures were with that engine and they came just a month apart.

I'd have to guess that the weight and complexity of reversers would be wasted on the 146. It touches down pretty slow and can legally be landed unspooled. I've landed on 24L at LAX and made taxiway E-10 for the exit. I don't think I could duplicate that feat in a Cessna 150!



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 ACJAZZAME : From a mechanics perspective who has worked on both the 146 and the CRJ 900, I'll take that old 146 any day. The 146 can take MELS, it's built like a
26 Post contains images FlyXJT : Well seeing as a CRJ capt.tops out at $89, and the 146 capt. at $111, I couldn't possibly see why they wouldn't want to take a pay cut, change bases,
27 Csturdiv : I just had to subscribe to Airliners.net to post on this topic. I love the 146, and I am going to miss them when ZW will no longer be flying as a Unit
28 Post contains images Lightsaber : Ok, just because it was a Textron design... (Textron designed the M1's engine.) Yes, its derived from a turboprop/shaft design. But there is quite a
29 ACJAZZAME : CSTURDIV, welcome to the forum, long live the 146! ACJAZZAME
30 Rafabozzolla : For me the question is: Why is LH so alergic to Embraers? Do you think that our German friends are simply unable to trust a Brazilian made plane?
31 JoFMO : I don't think that it is a general German problem. You shouldn't fotget that our small airline Cirrus is the first European operator of the E170. They
32 RootsAir : I might book GVA-BRU-GVA just for the sake of flying the Avro.... Could anyone confirm me the fact that they have very noisy flaps ?
33 LHSebi : Indeed they do! However, I believe the reason for that is not that they are noisier than other aircraft, but that since the wing is above the windows
34 Post contains images HT : Loud or not - at least this sound is very distinctive -HT
35 Mrocktor : I agree it's not a German thing. Although I have absolutely no evidence, I do think that there may be bad blood at LH (at a corporate or merely perso
36 Delboy : jonnybgoode Nobody buys aircraft as 'operational spares', irrespective of how cheap they are!! This isn't a buy one get one free offer, we are talking
37 Gilesdavies : I know many people knock the old BAe146, but people seem to forget this was the first rocket powered aircraft to be certified with STOL capability and
38 HT : Would it be okay to lease a/c and have it sitting around at a airport in order to deploy it, should any other a/c of this fleet get into trouble ? Th
39 David_itl : I find it quite strange why BACX's 146s + RJ100s seem to be unserviceable for a relatively large amount of time, with Titan and Flightline operating
40 Col : David, I think it may have something to do with the BA "Not sure what we are doing at MAN" policy. Instead of serving the airport and passengers, it i
41 Vfw614 : Rumour has it that they still have very bad memories about the EMB120 Brasilia operation of Lufthansa Cityline / DLT in the 1980s.....
42 Legacy135 : Anyhow, looking closer to the E-Jets, there is basically nothing than advantages over the CRJ700 and the 900.... And what other aircraft could they c
43 TheSonntag : Is Lufthansa City Line completely independant from LH mainline when we talk about airliner orders? I don't know what you think, but to me it seems to
44 HT : Indeed LH is known to keep reliable a/c in its fleet for prolonged periods rather than exchanging them frequently. Nowadays this should be seen as a
45 Beechcraft : Hi all, No, it´s not independent at all. We will be told by LH which A/C is to buy... I wouldn´t bet on it... Denis
46 HT : Insider´s information to share ? Or just a general statement ? -HT
47 Post contains images Beechcraft : Just a general statement, learned the hard way on a day to day basis... Just look at the mess with LHs "Regional Concept"... To say it positive: I thi
48 HAJ_OW : Hello, I just would like to add some remarks to this. Regarding the 3+3 and 3+2 upreast. With the 3+3 the are pretty tight but still comfortable compa
49 JoKeR : I personally hate that damn aircraft; flew on it 4 times and out of those, one flight ended with a return and emergency landing at Zurich and the seco
50 A342 : The B4´s are long gone. They only have the A300-600 now. The chances for new pax A300´s is almost zero.
51 Post contains links HT : http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/ is showing those A300´s currently in LH-service as models A300B4-603 and A300B4-605R. Can somebody put
52 Post contains images SWISSER : Well also on the ground they are hearable! I live near the ILS intercept course of 25L at BRU, and I can just hear the SN's approaching by the growl!
53 TriStar500 : The full model title is in fact A300B4-600, but for the sake of marketing simplicity, they are usually referred to just as A300-600's.
54 Post contains images HT : TriStar500, tnx for clearing up this situation -HT
55 Astuteman : Some old fashioned virtues may still appeal in an old-fashioned aircraft..... I know the guys in Woodford are still working hard to make them better.
56 Johnnybgoode : I return the compliment. what i wrote is 100% correct as I've got it directly from the mouth of LH's MUC hub manager which was visiting our universit
57 BBJII : attn EDDIEDUDE Your Flight in 1995 was with Business Air on G-GNTZ...146-200.
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