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Ten Airports Face Closure Due To Jet Fuel Shortage  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13392 times:

Courtesy: Airport Business

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=3343

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13359 times:

The airport does not have to close if it runs out of fuel, is this a reputable publication?

User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13308 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 1):
The airport does not have to close if it runs out of fuel, is this a reputable publication?

Sure the planes can land but cannot refuel. Sure it's not closed but not much use to anyone.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13279 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 1):
The airport does not have to close if it runs out of fuel, is this a reputable publication?

The info you requested:

http://www.armbrustaviation.com/about_us/


User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13233 times:

With enough planning, you do not have to buy fuel. It could really screw up the long-haul flights, but it could be done.

there are plenty of airports already dealing with reduced Jet A levels like LAS.


User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13186 times:

I question the validity of the posted article. There are so many grammar and diction errors in the release, it is hard to believe an organization that pays so little attention to detail and journalistic style would be reporting something that no other news outlet is.

It simply smells like a pile of bs.



See you up front!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13140 times:

The problem with this article is that the author -assumes- no fuel means no flights. What he fails to realize is that airlines tanker fuel. Fuel stops are also an option...

User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13111 times:

I'd like to know where the writer got that information. I think someone added 1 plus 1 and came up with 7.


Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineSRT75 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13041 times:

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 5):
It simply smells like a pile of bs.

I think it's plausible.

"It's unclear how soon the pipeline outages may affect operations at Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport.

"Fuel suppliers and airlines have 22 storage tanks at the airport that hold up to 27.6 million gallons of fuel. At full capacity, that's enough for about 10 days of fuel at the airlines' recent daily consumption rate of 2.8 million gallons.

"No information was immediately available on how much fuel remains in the tanks."

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/business/0805/31bizgasprices.html

2.8 million gallons a day means that a lot of jest are being filled up at ATL per day. I doubt airlines would want to have an extra 2.8 million gallons of fuel on their planes so that they can make the return trip from ATL without fueling up.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12940 times:

Courtesy: The New York Times

Carriers Are Stricken by Cancellations and Lack of Fuel

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/bu...1922d81742fc&ei=5099&partner=TOPIX


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12872 times:

From the NYT article:

The association arranged for supplies of jet fuel to be shipped by air tanker to airports in Charlotte, N.C., and Fort Myers and West Palm Beach in Florida, where supplies had dwindled, the group's chief economist, John Heimlich, said yesterday.

Still trying to figure out if they really meant "tankering", or is ATA (the organization, not the airline) hiring KC-135s and KC-10s to haul fuel for the airlines?


User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12821 times:

I doubt highly anyone "air tankered" anything. Sounds like another idiot news person n0t checking their facts again.

OPNLGuy is very wired in he would know if this was going on for real.

[Edited 2005-08-31 23:38:06]

User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12803 times:

MIA and FLL get their fuel from the port at FLL which is about 1/2 mile from the FLL airport. There is no problem with the colonial pipeline to the FLL or MIA airport from Port Everglades. As reported there are shipments already enroute. This pipeline fail story does not apply for these 2 airports and I strongly suspect for a few others as well. Unfortunately we will see more of these sensational style articles in the next few weeks as it serves various agendas. The result of the one today has driven gasoline up over a $1 a gallon in Atlanta...gas already produced and paid for...who is profiting?

User currently offlineDeltaGuy767 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 663 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12793 times:

I highly doubt that the busiest airport ATL, and other top airports in the US would be shut down. I'm sure that there are contingency plans for this sort of thing and that this supposed 'fuel shortage' will be fixed.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 1):
The airport does not have to close if it runs out of fuel, is this a reputable publication?

I agree with you that this publication isn't a good source at all for information as it seems a very sketchy article in the first place.

From BDL(Abundant in Texas Tea)  bigthumbsup 
DeltaGuy767



A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12772 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 11):
I doubt highly anyone "air tankered" anything. Sounds like another idiot news person n0t checking their facts again.

Here's an "air tanker" making a delivery to PBI...

http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/index.html

..and another one making a delivery at ATL...

http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/DC-10%20Fire%20Bomber.jpg



[Edited 2005-08-31 23:45:29]

User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12741 times:
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Quoting Airzim (Reply 2):
Sure the planes can land but cannot refuel. Sure it's not closed but not much use to anyone.

That's why you put enough fuel in the tanks so you can get back without refuelling - a common practice when flying to a locale that either has fuel costs that are too expensive, or can't refuel you.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 9):
2.8 million gallons a day means that a lot of jest are being filled up at ATL per day. I doubt airlines would want to have an extra 2.8 million gallons of fuel on their planes so that they can make the return trip from ATL without fueling up.

Well, if you're flying TO atlanta from elsewhere, that's an option. However, if you're FL or DL and your origin is ATL, then this is where you fuel up at.

FL and DL have a TON of daily flights that originate in ATL; I don't know how much fuel those planes consume daily, but it can't be a small amount.

And, of course, any long-haul or international flight isn't going to be able to bunker fuel either.

- litz


User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12737 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10):
From the NYT article:

The association arranged for supplies of jet fuel to be shipped by air tanker to airports in Charlotte, N.C., and Fort Myers and West Palm Beach in Florida, where supplies had dwindled, the group's chief economist, John Heimlich, said yesterday.

Still trying to figure out if they really meant "tankering", or is ATA (the organization, not the airline) hiring KC-135s and KC-10s to haul fuel for the airlines?

Tankering is the act of fueling an airplane at a station with enough fuel for both the flight to an airport and its next flight out of that airport. This has often been done when fuel prices at one airport are significantly less than those at another airport, e.g., DFW and LAX. Of course the trade-off is in the extra cost of carrying the return fuel as payload on the first flight, vs. carrying actual revenue payload. Depending on the route and the aircraft, there may not actually be a trade in revenue payload vs. fuel, but there will still be an increase in fuel burn and therefore fuel cost for the first flight. I can forsee that DL flights from outstations to ATL may tanker for the next flight from ATL to an outstation if fuel prices increase substantially in ATL. This should reduce consumption and help offset the closure of the pipelines.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12722 times:

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 12):
the colonial pipeline to the FLL or MIA airport from Port Everglades.

It's not Colonial's, but you are correct in saying that pipeline shouldn't be damaged and whatnot as the storm wasn't nearly as strong in the FLL area as it was in the GPT/MSY area. Any possible problems would be in regards of getting the fuel to Port Everglades because of lack of refining and easily accessible oil/fuel in the general area. And even with the government releasing the SPR unfortunately nothing burns unrefined crude.


User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12689 times:

Quoting Airzim (Reply 2):
Sure the planes can land but cannot refuel. Sure it's not closed but not much use to anyone.

JK has already taken care of...



Landing at a gas station  Smile


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12673 times:

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 16):
Tankering is the act of fueling an airplane at a station with enough fuel for both the flight to an airport and its next flight out of that airport.

As a dispatcher for 25 years, I'm quite familar with the concept...  Wink

My comment involved what the article described as an "air tanker" and what they meant by it...


User currently offlineCruzinAltitude From United States of America, joined May 2004, 415 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12657 times:

Here's an "air tanker" making a delivery to PBI...

http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/index.html

..and another one making a delivery at ATL...

http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/DC-10%20Fire%20Bomber.jpg


Good stuff! I can see the airport employee's standing below the drop with styrophoam cups ready to catch. Just hope no one is smoking!


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12632 times:

Quoting Litz (Reply 15):
Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 9):
2.8 million gallons a day means that a lot of jest are being filled up at ATL per day. I doubt airlines would want to have an extra 2.8 million gallons of fuel on their planes so that they can make the return trip from ATL without fueling up.

Hey Litz where do you see this statement in reply 9?

I see it in reply 8


User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12595 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 19):
My comment involved what the article described as an "air tanker" and what they meant by it...

I think it was just a mis-quote from a stupid reporter. He heard tankering and assumed real "tankers" perhaps.


User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12580 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 19):
As a dispatcher for 25 years, I'm quite familar with the concept...  

My comment involved what the article described as an "air tanker" and what they meant by it...

Sorry misunderstood what you were saying.

Quoting Litz (Reply 15):
FL and DL have a TON of daily flights that originate in ATL; I don't know how much fuel those planes consume daily, but it can't be a small amount.

While DL and FL have many flights that originate in ATL. There are not nearly as many aircraft that originate in ATL. This means that if you plan properly you can carry at least some of the fuel needed for the outbound flight into ATL from an outstation


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12545 times:

Maybe they should ground all of those mega-SUV's that people are driving. That will very quickly re-stock fuel into the system where it is really needed.

25 Litz : How weird ... maybe too many people were posting all at once and the quoting script messed up (I'll fix it ...) all I did was shade text and hit "QUO
26 Tornado82 : No, it won't, stop drinking the kool-aid and move on in life. The people driving SUV's are going to feel the pain as it is, so there's nothing more t
27 Litz : Okay, maybe I can't fix it ... the "edit" button only seems to apply to the last post made (and it seems to be broken, to boot - the username box is g
28 Apodino : Won't do a damn thing. Airliners are fueled using Jet-A kerosene, not Gasolene. The gas would help the supply problems for cars, but not jets.
29 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: MarketWatch Audio Report On The Subject http://www.marketwatch.com/tvradio/p...10%2D4FE6%2DBD60%2D8186E4E21D20%7D
30 DALMD88 : The barges enroute have been enroute since before the storm. Most all of the entire state of FL gets it's gas this way. Without refinery production t
31 TPAnx : TPA reports a two week supply of fuel. Next shipment expected 9/11. The airport will ask airlines to conserve..fill up at originating airport for the
32 HJAIA : I work for HJAIA, and I can tell you that there is not a shortage of Jet A here on the airport. If the 2 pipelines that feed that airport stopped toda
33 JFKviaPHX : You don't need to shut down operations when you run out of fuel. As long as the airline can tanker enough to get to an airport that has enough they ca
34 Post contains links RedChili : I saw that several people here questioned the reliability of the source. The article was not written by airportbusiness.com, but AP (Associated Press)
35 Ahdharia : Well NWA and a few other carriers announced today that on some of their flights theyre carrying double the fuel enough to get their roundtrip without
36 Douglasdc8 : Of course if an airport runs out of diesel and gasoline, which so far doesn't seem to be a problem, ground operations will become a bit "interesting"
37 GoogleBoy : Katrina is the trigger point of World Oil Production Peak. It will create the imbalance (lack of supply capacity over demand) and bring us very soon t
38 Ilikeyyc : the change in reply numbers happens when a previous post gets deleted. The script in the post does not change, the number at the top of the post chan
39 Tornado82 : We have the crude... we just don't have the refining capacity to refine the crude. If you lose 10% of slaughter houses, you'd have a shortage of beef
40 GoogleBoy : Tornado, For once I agree with you. Trigger means that the shortage of refining will draw attention on the other problem not yet acknowledged, declini
41 TCFC424 : Release from the SPR was a publicity stunt?!? Okay, I agreed with you all the way to that point. HOWEVER, along with the refineries that were shut dow
42 Gipper913 : Quite true...but you seem to assume the AP and CNN are always dead-on about their "facts". History tells a very different story.
43 RedChili : Yes, I very well know that journalists do not always get their facts right. In fact, I've been doing some journalistic work myself, and in one case,
44 Tornado82 : TCFC424: GoogleBoy now, and for some time in the past, has theorized about a WORLD oil shortage caused by a dwindling reserves and whatnot. I'm not g
45 Gipper913 : I concede your overall point.
46 GoogleBoy : Well if you repeat to yourself enough to convince yourself, so be it. I recall you also stated with adamant passion that there is no such thing as Gl
47 OPNLguy : I never claimed that that tankering and fuelstopping flights would be economically efficient, or work in all operational scenarios. The point I was t
48 RedChili : I agree. To clarify myself: I did not mean to write that fuel shortages automatically mean no flights. What I meant is that if this happens on a big
49 JAM747 : With the refineries knocked out it has had an adverse effect on the prices of gasoline. Will the problem of refineries not functioning affect the pric
50 Post contains images OPNLguy : Well, you and I are in agreement; now if only we could get the yutz who wrote the article to see the error of his ways...
51 TAN FLYR : Tornado82..with your first statement and example you illustrate a point I made on another thread last week about refining capacity. I take issue with
52 Ikramerica : Non bush supporters wanted this announcement on Sunday BEFORE the storm hit. Why? Not because the oil would be released at all, but so that oil SPECU
53 GoogleBoy : I could not have said it better. The French PM (M. de Villepin) has made an historical statement that the Oil Era is over. When will other G-8 leader
54 GoogleBoy : If I don't suffer from Amnesia, I think I started two threads on this very topic (the joint oil crisis and airline crisis). If I recall, it became a b
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