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DL Has Competition: AA Applies For JFK-SJD  
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 61
Posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

AA apparently wants in on the JFK-SJD market. Up against DL's proposal of a Sat-only 738, AA is proposing a year-round Sat-only 757, plus a Wed-only 757 during the peak December-April period.

Since CO already flies EWR-SJD, and because JFK and EWR are coterminal in the context of the restrictive U.S.-Mexico bilateral, either AA or DL -- but not both -- will be flying this route.

Personally, I think AA stands a very good chance of winning this authority. AA is proposing more capacity, more frequency, a larger plane, a year-round service, and DL is in SkyTeam, along with CO, whereas AA would be injecting a competing nonstop alliance presence for oneworld in the market.

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5992 times:

Now the question is, how long until US Airways applies for nonstop Saturday-only LGA-SJD service, using either a 319 or a 757?


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5980 times:

I hope its DL. AA already runs the show at CUN, DL show get this one.

User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5983 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 1):
Now the question is, how long until US Airways applies for nonstop Saturday-only LGA-SJD service, using either a 319 or a 757?

Yup, lol.

I think if it is down to AA and DL, well AA will probably win because they are offering just more capacity. It sounds better so why go with a smaller plane just only Saturday service all year or bigger plane with sat. only service and a wed. flight during peak times, which sound better to you.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5971 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 1):
Now the question is, how long until US Airways applies for nonstop Saturday-only LGA-SJD service, using either a 319 or a 757?

Seeing as how LGA-SJD would have a wee problem with customs/immigration, I wouldn't hold your breath.  Yeah sure



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5953 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 4):
Seeing as how LGA-SJD would have a wee problem with customs/immigration, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Good thinking...I forgot about that small problem...additionally, I know I left a smiley out of there, but if every other legacy carrier is going to fight tooth and nail on every single international award, hey, why not...that said, I wasn't serious...



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 5873 times:

Had to be expected that AA just couldn't let DL get that route authority. Hope that DL gets this route, regardless of who offers more seats, as it isn't like DL or AA couldn't add more capacity as the market demands. But regardless of who gets the route authority, JB won't be getting it  devil .

User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5799 times:

Quoting Commavia (Thread starter):
Personally, I think AA stands a very good chance of winning this authority. AA is proposing more capacity, more frequency, a larger plane, a year-round service, and DL is in SkyTeam, along with CO, whereas AA would be injecting a competing nonstop alliance presence for oneworld in the market.

I think it will go to DL. They have shown more of an aggressive approach at JFK over the last year and continue to do so. AA won't be able to run the route year round successfully and the DOT will know that as well. Its just an attempt to one up the competition. Again the additional frequency/capacity is meaningless. DL will be free to operate the route daily on a 777 if desired just as AA would be allowed to go to Saturday only on the 738. Again just trying to one up the competition by taking advantage of knowing what they proposed.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineLUV4JFK From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

I'm surprised they only applied for the one route. During the winter months, Continental flies from EWR to ACA & CZM and now year round to SJD & PVR, all routes Delta wants from JFK. I'm curious as to why American didn't want the other 3 routes as well.  confused 

LUV4JFK
 yes 



John F. Kennedy International Airport: Where America Greets The World.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 61
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 7):
They have shown more of an aggressive approach at JFK over the last year and continue to do so.

Since when has the DOT ever based an international route application on the perceived "aggressiveness" of one of the applicants? Who cares? AA is larger than DL at JFK, and has a much larger presence from JFK to Latin America.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 7):
AA won't be able to run the route year round successfully and the DOT will know that as well.

Why not? AA does quite well in SJD during the summer, albeit not with as much capacity as in the winter. In addition, I think AA has a much better chance of making the route a profitable success, in the summer or winter, than DL ever will. AA is much bigger in New York than DL, much bigger at JFK than DL, and much bigger in Latin America and Mexico than DL.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5638 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
AA is much bigger in New York than DL, much bigger at JFK than DL, and much bigger in Latin America and Mexico than DL.

Per Port Authority statistics. AA/AE has a 16.8% NYC market share. Delta/Song/Comair have a 14.6% market share. This market share gap btw is narrowing each Month and has been for two years at least. So this 2.2 point gap qualifies in our AA koolaid drinker's mind as "much larger"...whoo whoo.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2915 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5616 times:

Obviously the route will go to the airline who presents the best application, not size/commitment to the airport. Both DL and AA, as far as legacies go, have made JFK/NYC a focus for expanding. We shall see. AA is larger to Mexico and Latin American but that did not stop the feds from awarding AS the LAX-MEX authority.

This aside, do we know when the route will be assigned?


User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5595 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
Since when has the DOT ever based an international route application on the perceived "aggressiveness" of one of the applicants?

At least since F9 started to connect CUN to every US city.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
AA is much bigger in New York than DL, much bigger at JFK than DL, and much bigger in Latin America and Mexico than DL.

Actually in NYC the airlines are dead even. In JFK AA is larger.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
In addition, I think AA has a much better chance of making the route a profitable success

Why? I see no advantage to either carrier in terms of success. Each operate at relatively the same cost and each have the same market share in the region. Just because it is "AA" doesn't mean 20% more passengers over anyone else.
I think DL holds the advantage in this one because they submitted their application first. Just as I feel despite DL's large presence in MCO they won't get the CUN route authority. Time is money and AA is responding to competition not attempting to start up a new route.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5588 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 10):
Delta/Song/Comair have a 14.6% market share

You forgot to add in DL Shuttle and CHQ. The 1.2-1.5 million passengers/month the Shuttle handles narrows the gap to even.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4876 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5589 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
AA is larger than DL at JFK



Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
much bigger at JFK than DL

While I agree the size of a carrier in a particular market or airport has very little impact on the DOT's thought process, you'd better check your stats again about DL vs. AA at JFK. Depends on what you use to measure size at JFK, but DL beats AA on several fronts at JFK:

Number of airports/cities served nonstop:

AA (including Eagle): 38
DL (including Song, DCI): 57 (already excluding RSW but including AUS & SAT)

Number of daily flights:

AA (including Eagle): approx. 98
DL (including Song, DCI): over 110

The only metric AA probably beats DL at from JFK could be total number of seats offered as AA runs the 777s while a lot of DL's capacity is with the RJs.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5583 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 10):
Per Port Authority statistics. AA/AE has a 16.8% NYC market share. Delta/Song/Comair have a 14.6% market share.

I was referring to mainline, as it won't be a Comair CRJ flying JFK-SJD (at least not yet!). By that metric -- AA is, indeed, much larger than DL at both JFK and in the New York metro area.

New York:
AA - 15.3%
DL - 7.8%

JFK:
AA - 20.5%
DL - 10.1%

AA mainline being more than twice as large as DL mainline in both cases, I'd say that's "much" larger.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5578 times:

I think I included it.

DL 7.8
Song 3.6
OH 1.9
Shuttle 1.3

??


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5574 times:

Ah....mainline? Yes let's not include Song or the Shuttle...LOL

Like those don't play a factor in whatever your point was about AA having this size advantage..LOL


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2915 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

"And in this corner, in the red, white and widget trunks, Padcrasher. And in the opposite corner in the red, white and silver trunks, Commavia."
 Smile

Does anybody know the criteria the feds review when determining these things? I realize it is probably different in every scenario, but what items in a proposal will the feds see as strengths vs. weaknesses? I guess this is the $64,000 question...


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

Primarily the big factors are: Does this provide service for an underserved market? Does it promote more competition?

If those question don't apply, like what you have here. Then it goes by more ambiguous reasons. Alliance considerations, helping an upstart airline, past denials, past approvals, and down right lobbying.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5434 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
I was referring to mainline, as it won't be a Comair CRJ flying JFK-SJD (at least not yet!). By that metric -- AA is, indeed, much larger than DL at both JFK and in the New York metro area.

Song is DL mainline by all means except under a different name, it's operated by mainline pilots and the 757 is a mainline plane. DL has upped capacity tremendously at JFK recently, and come winter will do so even more. Look for DL to overtake AA in NYC very soon, DL already carries more passengers at LGA, and will likely overtake AA in terms of passengers carried at JFK as well. CO is the largest airline in the New York area, AA is 2nd, with DL at a very close 3rd.

Jeremy


User currently offlinePDXtriple7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5430 times:

It is crazy how much SJD has grown over the years. I remember when I first started going there 5 years ago (my family has a timeshare in Cabo) there were very few east coast flights if any at all. Now there is F9, DL, AA, and CO to east of the Rockies. Any chance of widebody service to SJD? Isn't EWR/JFK-SJD a 6 hour flight?

User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5416 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
CO is the largest airline in the New York area, AA is 2nd, with DL at a very close 3rd.

True, though in terms of local traffic, American carries a lot more. Delta carriers a healthy amount of through traffic via JFK, much more so than AA, which carries little through traffic via the airport, most of it coming from Canada.



a.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5414 times:
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Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
Song is DL mainline by all means except under a different name, it's operated by mainline pilots and the 757 is a mainline plane.

Which would mean that Ted is United mainline? So why do they break out figures separately?

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5369 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
True, though in terms of local traffic, American carries a lot more. Delta carriers a healthy amount of through traffic via JFK, much more so than AA, which carries little through traffic via the airport, most of it coming from Canada.

Mark you sure about this?. Delta carriers more domestic passengers than AA in NYC. Very little of it connecting. Much of International now is to the Carribbean so that's not connecting either. I'd say if AA does have more local traffic it is because of their SJU/SDQ operations and it's not much more than Delta.


25 Padcrasher : Yes I just don't see how AA has more local traffic. Only 1.9 points of Delta's 14.6 points is even International. And half that traffic is local as we
26 MAH4546 : I am sure that AAdvantage members are second to only CO OnePass in New York City, I should have been more clear with what I was saying, I perhaps rea
27 SESGDL : They're broken up separately to provide statistics, but when financial information, load factors, revenue passenger miles, etc., are published, Ted i
28 Evan767 : How does this make sense? AA will win because they offer "just more capacity". Sounds like AA will LOSE because they offer too much capacity and will
29 AA787 : Evan767- Maybe he said that because it's what he truly feels will happen. I don't blame him. As mentioned before, the DOT is meant to promote competit
30 EA CO AS : One problem potentially hurting AA's chances will be the AS/AA codeshare that already funnels traffic SJD/LAX/JFK between both carriers. It represents
31 Post contains images Mariner : Funny, that's funny. So I guess Delta learned from F9's book when they decided to connect SLC to every Mexican resort. Um - that's debatable. If that
32 Evan767 : Sure you don't...take a look at your screenname.
33 MAH4546 : AA flies LAX-SJD daily with their own metal, no need for the AS application. And that is not anything that will sway the application towards Delta. D
34 Commavia : Exactly. If DL gets the route, SkyTeam will have the nonstop NYC-SJD market locked up, from the region's two longhaul airports. AA provides not only
35 DeltaMIA : Why not connect your hub to Mexican outstations? Makes sense to me. It isn't like there are many airlines fighting DL over that lucrative SLC-Mexico
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