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US Carriers To South Africa?  
User currently offlineSpringbok139 From South Africa, joined Sep 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5604 times:

I was wondering if any U.S. carrier is considering flights to South Africa.SAA have a few flights to the States and there are at least 4 flights a day from SA to the UK....are there really that few U.S. tourists interested in South Africa?

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTonyBurr From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5590 times:

I do not think any of them are actively pursuing this route. With South African Airways coming into Star Alliance ( sometime this side of the next century) I would doubt UA would be considering it, althought they had the rights for the route.

User currently offlineTsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5562 times:

CO had some sort of "code share" with World Airways a few years ago with flights from EWR/JNB, in what was essentially a CO flight...I don't know if we still have the rights, but it would require a 777 for non-stop service, so I don't think it would happen anytime soon....

User currently offlineCV580Freak From Bahrain, joined Jul 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5546 times:

When you think about it Africa and the Middle East are hardly, if at all serviced by US registered airlines. Must be a huge potential.


One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
User currently offlineFlydubai From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5530 times:

Quoting CV580Freak (Reply 3):
When you think about it Africa and the Middle East are hardly, if at all serviced by US registered airlines. Must be a huge potential.

This is largely because of the geographical location of the Continents. Not many US airlines have planes with the sufficient range to reach the Middle East or part of Africa.

flyDUBAI


User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5504 times:

AA: Codeshares with BA, not going to happen
SA)">UA: Star Alliance with SA, LH, too poor to make it happen
DL: Codeshares with SA
NW: Codeshares with KL
CO: Nothing much stopping them (they dont codeshare on any flights to South Africa), they just need more planes.
US: Codeshares with SA, LH, *A, no planes, no money anyway



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3294 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5497 times:

It's too bad American hasn't jumped in and served MIA-CPT-JNB-CPT-MIA with a 777. There would be sufficient demand via MIA, however, daily service would require approximately 1.8 additional aircraft in the fleet.


.......
User currently offlineSpringbok139 From South Africa, joined Sep 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

It seems strange that in the 70's PanAm was flying 707's to JHB and now not one US carrier even comes close...even with South Africa's booming tourism trade.How the US don't fly to SA when countries like Qatar and Ethiopia do is hard to comprehend.....How about a JFK to Rio then a "quick" hop over to Cape Town?...

User currently offlineAirScoot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5456 times:

The only US carrier in (relatively) recent history to fly to South Africa was USAfrica out of IAD in the mid 90's. I want to say they were using an MD-11 with a tech stop enroute. They didn't last very long though and I vividly remember having a small group stranded in Johannesburg when they went under and what we went through trying to get them back to the US.

One thing I do remember is they were attempting to tie in with United when they started up (even using Apollo if I remember right).

Anyone have any information on them?


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2932 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

It's my understanding that AA did conduct studies into flying to South Africa from MIA. I guess they determined it would not be feasible. It would appear that AA prefers to link the USA with destinations non-stop if possible (few exceptions: VVI, ASU, etc), so unless they could do MIA-CPT/JNB without restrictions, they will probably pass.

Now in my opinion, I would think an intermediate stop in REC or SSA on the way to South Africa would work for AA given their size in South America, but they probably won't get local rights between South America and South Africa. Just my assumption, I have no facts to go on.


User currently offlineSpringbok139 From South Africa, joined Sep 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

I read somewhere that SAA is the only airline in the world to fly over the south Atlantic...surely a route for AA wouldn't be a problem...

User currently offlinePHX Flyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

I seem to remember that United was at some stage considering a routing from the West Coast (LAX, I believe) to Sao Paolo and on to Johannesburg. That flight would receive additional feed from UA flights from IAD and ORD, thus offering one-stop flights to South Africa from all major markets. Also, I think our air treaty with Brazil provides for 5th freedom routings - Varig offers fares for the LAX-NRT leg on their flight from GRU to Japan.
Since United continues to shift capacity to international routes, this may still be an option - provided the demand to/from South Africa is deemed strong enough.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5307 times:

Quoting Springbok139 (Reply 7):
How about a JFK to Rio then a "quick" hop over to Cape Town?...

That route will be much longer than a non-stop or via SID.
If DL ATL-GIG-ATL or the other ATL-GRU-ATL loads are poor, DL could consider - with minor schedule changes - flying to CPT instead of having that plane idle the whole day in Brazil.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
Now in my opinion, I would think an intermediate stop in REC or SSA on the way to South Africa would work for AA given their size in South America, but they probably won't get local rights between South America and South Africa. Just my assumption, I have no facts to go on.

The slots for US airlines in the Brazil-USA Aviation bilateral treaty are all taken. Unless AA gets an special agreement to operate SSA or REC as destination or in-route to Southafrica, or if there's a new bilateral, We won't see AA fliying to other brazilan cities than GRU and GIG.
The Brazil-US bilateral allows 5th freedom so from the brazilian part there's no problem if AA wants to add CPT or JNB from GRU or GIG. Don't know from Southafrica, but Pan Am did fly GIG-CPT with B707 or B747 in the 70's.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5247 times:

Quoting Springbok139 (Reply 10):
I read somewhere that SAA is the only airline in the world to fly over the south Atlantic...surely a route for AA wouldn't be a problem...

I think that VARIG would challenge that statement!


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5205 times:

TAAG Angola Airlines flies LAD - GIG - LAD
Malaysian may still be flying CPT - EZE - CPT
It seems RG no longer flies over the South Atlantic, they do some kind of code-share with SAA

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 13):

Quoting Springbok139 (Reply 10): I read somewhere that SAA is the only airline in the world to fly over the south Atlantic...surely a route for AA wouldn't be a problem...

I think that VARIG would challenge that statement!



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33010 posts, RR: 71
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5187 times:

American Airlines conducted studies in 2000 to start Miami-South Africa service. While the market to fill the planes exists (O&D alone on Miami-South Africa is about 220 daily passengers), there are logistical issues with weight restrictions, ETOPS 207 (MIA-CPT can barely make it with ETOPS 180), crew rest, etc. When AA gets some 787s in the future, I think it is realistic to see them flying to South Africa from Miami.


a.
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Quoting Springbok139 (Reply 7):
It seems strange that in the 70's PanAm was flying 707's to JHB and now not one US carrier even comes close...even with South Africa's booming tourism trade.How the US don't fly to SA when countries like Qatar and Ethiopia do is hard to comprehend.....How about a JFK to Rio then a "quick" hop over to Cape Town?...



I totally agree with you. I was in Sa only 2 weeks ago, and beleive me, its a very welcoming country that does a big effort to show the world a different image or what was their's before. Thus more and more tourists are coming ....thus demand increases...Springbok jsut let me tell you that you are lucky to come from such an amazing country with all its cultures.

Regards

BM



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 5):
CO: Nothing much stopping them (they dont codeshare on any flights to South Africa), they just need more planes.

CO has 2 planes flying into GRU daily, one flies onto GIG while the other stays alldaylong in the tarmac.
Don't know that much about CO Brazilian schedule, but GRU-CPT-GRU may be a possibility with them. Also even if some connections won't work well it seems CO has CM flying codeshare with them via PTY into GRU too.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33010 posts, RR: 71
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5144 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 17):
CO has 2 planes flying into GRU daily, one flies onto GIG while the other stays alldaylong in the tarmac.
Don't know that much about CO Brazilian schedule, but GRU-CPT-GRU may be a possibility with them. Also even if some connections won't work well it seems CO has CM flying codeshare with them via PTY into GRU too.

Huh? If CO had a tag-on flight to EWR-GRU that went onto CPT, then how could it not connect with the returning GRU-EWR flight? I sure hope it would connect, or there wouldn't be a plane to take people back to Newark. CO isn't going to fly CPT-GRU to misconnect with their own flights and connect with Copa.



a.
User currently offlineB777200 From Zambia, joined Aug 2005, 30 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5133 times:

I think at the moment there are no large US Airlines flying anywhere in Africa. I understand that World Airways flies to Angola from Houston, but none of the large legacy carriers fly anywhere in Africa. New York City to Lagos must be a profitable route. I understand that Virgin Atlantic's flight from London to Lagos is one of their most profitable.

The extent of the legacy carriers venturing into Africa is Delta having codeshare flights with South African Airways. These flights to Atlanta and New York are daily, one of our South African fans can confirm that. Yields are also high on those routes, so there is potential for one of the United States legacy carriers to fly to Africa.

Greetings to All.


User currently offlineGreyGoose From South Africa, joined Sep 2005, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5076 times:

Its a shame that the US carriers have not focused on the market. SAA is doing well on the routes - dailies to JFK (A343) and ATL (A346) and now 4/wk to IAD (B744). SAA also benefits from 5th freedom rights, especially on the JNB-DKR-JFK route. These routes tend to be some of SAA's most profitable long haul routes, given the lack of competition.

But I think for a US carrier to make this profitable, they need to fly into JNB; CPT doesn't have the high yield traffic to make this work (the leisure pax will mostly go for the cheaper routing via Europe). But given the distance and the altitude in JNB, I think only the A345 and 772LR could do it non-stop East-to-West. I would like to see SAA get the aircraft to do this non-stop, especially JNB-JFK. But given the lack of competition, no reason to bother at this point.


User currently offlinePITA333 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 391 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 6):
It's too bad American hasn't jumped in and served MIA-CPT-JNB-CPT-MIA with a 777. There would be sufficient demand via MIA, however, daily service would require approximately 1.8 additional aircraft in the fleet.

I agree, that kind of a route could be a big performer for AA if the task of getting the flight out could be possible. Like you said, they need 2 more 777s. Too bad thats not going to happen anytime soon, I'd like to see AA in AAfrica!


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4996 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
CO isn't going to fly CPT-GRU to misconnect with their own flights and connect with Copa.

I'm reffering to CO Southafrica - Brazil (if they ever fly that route) will not connect with CM, but with their own IAH and EWR flights.

Quoting GreyGoose (Reply 20):
But I think for a US carrier to make this profitable, they need to fly into JNB; CPT doesn't have the high yield traffic to make this work (the leisure pax will mostly go for the cheaper routing via Europe).

If any US airline having planes idle in GRU or GIG airports daytime wants to fly them to Southafrica, CPT may be the better choice.. maybe not for the yields but because of the flying time GRU/GIG-CPT-GRU/GIG is less than to/from JNB (the airline could squeeze that flight more easily than a JNB in their schedule) and CPT doesn't have JNB altitude problem.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4963 times:

Quoting Flydubai (Reply 4):
Not many US airlines have planes with the sufficient range to reach the Middle East or part of Africa.

Range is not the issue, loads are.

Quoting Springbok139 (Reply 7):
It seems strange that in the 70's PanAm was flying 707's to JHB and now not one US carrier even comes close...even with South Africa's booming tourism trade.How the US don't fly to SA when countries like Qatar and Ethiopia do is hard to comprehend.....How about a JFK to Rio then a "quick" hop over to Cape Town?...

Back in the day Pan AM served Africa very well and went to bizarre places like Brazzavile (sp) and places that would not be at all viable these days like Kinshasa.

Given that most US carriers are in rough shape now is not the time for them to be venturing out to new pastures on what would be a costly new destination.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3106 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4854 times:

I'd love to see DL take two 777s off of European services and start up ATL-JNB or ATL-CPT, or even ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL. The question arises of where to refuel though - maybe Accra or Lagos?

The 777s taken off of Europe could then be replaced by 764s.

I know, wishful thinking ....


25 B6sea : I think once one of the airlines gets a 787 then you'll see interest in Africa re-emerge for the legacies. Otherwise CO doesnt have enough 777s and th
26 MAH4546 : You don't need a 777. Most of northern Africa is reachable with a 762, such as Lagos and Accra, two of the largest markets. Dakar, which is arguably
27 Gt1 : I did get a rumor from a pilot that DL was looking at going to South Africa via South America. Supposedly DL got the route authority from Pan Am. I've
28 MAH4546 : They didn't. United has it, as it was part of the LatAm authorities.
29 Soups : You can dream to see a US carrier at Lagos!!! Look at CO
30 SA7700 : I know I am going a bit of the topic here, but IMMHO CPT most probably has sufficient yields to many international destinations. It is some carriers
31 Jmc1975 : To add to that, the logistics of such a route might be beyond what AA would allow in their current business plan. This route would have to be dispatc
32 B6sea : I was referring specifically to South Africa, sorry about the confusion (sometimes my mind goes faster than my typing skills allow). -Chans
33 BSBIsland : About US carriers flying to South Africa through Brazil, that makes not much sense nowadays. Slot restrictions in Brazil would disencourage any airlin
34 2travel2know : Slot restrictions are a problem for any new US-Brazil flights by US airlines, but they're no problem for tag-ons onto South Africa on existing US-Bra
35 Post contains images BlrBird : Is there a specific reason why US airlines are generally Africa shy! Where as EU airlines seem to have quite an extensive Africa network.
36 Whataboutme : What is the distance between GRU?GIG to JNB/CPT? What would the flight time be. Can an airline like CO who has a plane sitting all day in Brazil fly t
37 SA7700 : JNB-GRU SA205: Depart 10h20 Arrive 15h30 (Flying time 10h10min) GRU-JNB SA206: Depart 17h30 Arrive 07h00+1 (Flying time 08h30) According to the Great
38 MAH4546 : The same reasons that EU airlines have a weak presence in LatAm and US airlines have extensive LatAm networks. The market is bigger to Europe and pro
39 2travel2know : I agree GRU-JNB-GRU with CO may not work, however IMHO, CPT - with a quick turnaround and slight GRU arr/dep time changes - maybe. CPT fits more as a
40 Wdleiser : What if say a US carrier did this----> West-East they do (*insert major US airport here*) to JNB. Then East - West they do---> JNB->CPT(for fuel and m
41 SA7700 : Take into account that CPT-MIA is 7667 miles / 12339 km on the GCM. Most of the major US carriers largest planes are B772ER's. With 263 tonne MTOW; r
42 BSBIsland : If US carriers can fill the aircrafts to Brazil and can not add more frequency, that wouldn´t be interesting using their already restricted frequenc
43 2travel2know : US airlines can't add frecuencies to Brazil but they sure can add seats, or not? go-on from a B767 to a B777 or even a B747-400? In order to really s
44 BSBIsland : I don´t think they have the aircraft to put on such a route. I´m not too familiar with US carriers´ fleets but from what I´ve seen here, they hav
45 Whataboutme : Well wasn't CO to start Newark to Lagos with a 767? What happened to that flight? Couldn't CO go from Lagos to CPT/JNB and back. Why can't an airline
46 2travel2know : I like your thinking. Sky Team airlines DL and CO (should I count CM with CO too?) fly daily to GRU. GRU gets DL from ATL (twice), CO from IAH, CO fr
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