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When It's Over At Northwest...  
User currently offlineTPAnx From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8501 times:

Curious as to your thoughts on what it'll be like for NW employees if and when
labor peace returns...assuming NW survives. FA's and pilots will apparently be dealing the "replacement" mechanics. FA's will apparently have to work with
colleagues from overseas. Many of the posts dealing with NW have mentioned
past labor disputes...and the bitterness which followed them. Would like to hear from people who've weathered similar situations...how does (or can) the company get everyone to pull together?
TPAnx


I read the news today..oh boy
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8398 times:

The flight attendant issue is a very touchy one.

NW wants Philippine based flight attendants to fly domestic routings. They currently only fly Trans-Pacific flights. But these flight attendants probably make something like $9 an hour. New hires in the U.S. make around $18 an hour, and go up to about $37 an hour.

Here comes the problem. American has three bases in South America. Now that Northwest has cheap flight attendants, AA should use theirs right? DL and UA have bases in South America too I think. So now CO and US need to cut costs. Do they set up a base in Central America? It will turn into who can outsource the fastest.

AAndrew


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2926 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

AA's flight attendants in South America (bases in LIM, BOG and either SCL or GRU?) are contracted to fly only routes to/from MIA. I am sure somebody knows the details of this, but apparently these are contracts left over from the Eastern Airlines days. It's my understanding they are not allowed to work domestic US flights or any other flight not originating or terminating in their home country. Furthermore it is also my understanding that this is a requirement of the governments of Peru, Colombia and either Chile or Brazil (again I am probably wrong here - just going by what I heard) that these satellite F/A bases be set-up. They are not part of the F/A union representing AA/AE US based flight attendants.

If anything, I would imagine AA would rather shut these satellite bases down and use US based F/A's, but that's just my opinion.

I do not see airlines outsourcing to non-US based F/A's to cut costs. Again, somebody correct me, but is there an FAA regulation prohibiting something like this?


User currently offlineJetclipper747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8304 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 1):
Here comes the problem. American has three bases in South America. Now that Northwest has cheap flight attendants, AA should use theirs right? DL and UA have bases in South America too I think.

UA does not have any South American domiciles.FYI - LHR, CDG, FRA, HKG, NRT.(That's it out of the USA)
Thanks.



Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
User currently offlineTPAnx From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8279 times:

Was more concerned about "corporate culture". Can all these groups get along? Would seem to take some really good management to make it happen.
TPAnx



I read the news today..oh boy
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8220 times:

Is it allowed to fly domestic American routes with outsourced foreign airlines?

I couldn't believe that. Domestic flights should be operated by domestic flight attendents.

International flights are different. But they should a least be based in the destination country and not from a third one.


User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8151 times:

when its over at nwa????

PFAA will be gone or reduced to a level that of the union workers at SEIU
IAM will be dougs little bitches
ALPA will have no more power than the contracted airport cleaners at the humphrey terminal

AND doug will be a legend in the airline circles of who was the first to break those greedy unions and give those hefty bonuses to the upper mgmt for a job well done for getting 70% of the flights out on time



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8090 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):
AA's flight attendants in South America (bases in LIM, BOG and either SCL or GRU?) are contracted to fly only routes to/from MIA.

And Northwest's foreign flight attendants are only supposed to fly Trans-Pacific and Inter-Asia routes. Contracts can be changed.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):

I do not see airlines outsourcing to non-US based F/A's to cut costs. Again, somebody correct me, but is there an FAA regulation prohibiting something like this?

I can't think of one. If they pass the FAA-approved NW flight attendant training course, they should be allowed to fly any NW flight.

AAndrew


User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8034 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):

I do not see airlines outsourcing to non-US based F/A's to cut costs. Again, somebody correct me, but is there an FAA regulation prohibiting something like this?


I can't think of one. If they pass the FAA-approved NW flight attendant training course, they should be allowed to fly any NW flight.

AAndrew

AANDREW,
would you feel safe flying on nwa with MNL based flight attds trained by a bangalore based flight crew training company?????call me crazy but it could happen and i will stick with nwafa and all his coworkers that have the experience and trained by nwa professionals...ask me about a mx flt from cun-mia a while back and why i feel the way i do



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineKanebear From United States of America, joined May 2002, 953 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

CO has a base in GUM, I have no idea if they're unionized, etc etc. Having experienced a few GUM based crews on CO, quite a few SoAm based crews on AA and various other foreign crews I can say that domestic service levels would improve if outsourcing came to pass.

User currently offlineSquid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7985 times:

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 6):
when its over at nwa????

PFAA will be gone or reduced to a level that of the union workers at SEIU
IAM will be dougs little bitches
ALPA will have no more power than the contracted airport cleaners at the humphrey terminal

AND doug will be a legend in the airline circles of who was the first to break those greedy unions and give those hefty bonuses to the upper mgmt for a job well done for getting 70% of the flights out on time

Could not have said it better myself. Management will have definately EARNED those bonuses after having finaly broken their unions ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineN77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7984 times:

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 9):
CO has a base in GUM, I have no idea if they're unionized, etc etc. Having experienced a few GUM based crews on CO, quite a few SoAm based crews on AA and various other foreign crews I can say that domestic service levels would improve if outsourcing came to pass.

GUM F/A's are on a separate contract, represented by the same union CAL F/A's are. There is no distinction in their training, and they could step in and fly any US flag carrier operation just like any US born and bread F/A.


User currently offlineKevinDCA From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 105 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7874 times:

Why in the world are people so concerned about illegal aliens coming to the US to "steal" our jobs and take away our standard of living? Let's let companies like NWA do it legally.

Let's outsource most of our maintenance to foreign firms. Let's allow foreigners to staff every flight into and out of the US, maybe even within the US if we're lucky. That will finally put those fat-cat union supporters in their place! All those Philippine and Chinese cabin crew and maintenance workers will thank us all for their $8 or $9 an hour wages (well above what they could make in their own country, no doubt).

Meanwhile, those greedy union supporters who wanted to make enough to support their families, to make their mortgage payments, to ensure their medical treatment, and otherwise enjoy a basic American standard of living - too bad, the market just isn't there, because it can be shipped overseas for less money.

This should be carried over to other areas of American business. There are many, many foreign workers willing to make a fraction of what even the lowest-paid workers are making, and they are willing to do it with no benefits. It's all about the bottom line of the company now, not the bottom line for the worker.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7874 times:
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Quoting Aa757first (Reply 1):
NW wants Philippine based flight attendants to fly domestic routings. They currently only fly Trans-Pacific flights. But these flight attendants probably make something like $9 an hour. New hires in the U.S. make around $18 an hour, and go up to about $37 an hour.

No they don't They only fly on Interport routes(within Asia), they do not fly Transpac flights. The company wants to outsource 50% of international flying to MNL, PVG/PEK, and BKK based FA's because they are sweatshop-wage FA's. The plan would be to position these FA's on NRT-US segments(SEA, HNL, SFO, MSP, DTW, and LAX, and ahve them fly the long-haul domestic service. And then the company would pretty much in the end, be free to replace on any international flight. A dirty trick is what it is.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineSoylentgreen From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 244 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7644 times:

File for bankruptcy. Result-all contracts are null and void, but landing rights and flight plans remain, as does fleet. Start over with low cost carrier structure, but with legacy carrier routes, fleet, and experience. And make sure not one of those mechnaics gets rehired...ever.

User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7465 times:

If NWA outsources, arnt there some major VISA issues to deal with? Sure, a company can sponsor overseas workers, but there are limitations, and I believe that one is that the number of able and competent tradesmen, workers, etc is too low domestically and it is necessary to seek professionals from other countries. It is a bit more lax when it comes to internships, long term training, education, and the like. But I'm sure the unions are in contact with the INS to enforce any breeches of those rules.


Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently onlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5115 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7408 times:

How come no one ever "outsources" management?

Just wondering....



Ozark Flies Your Way
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7227 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 16):
How come no one ever "outsources" management?

If what you are saying is that US airlines do not have foreign nationals in management positions, YOU ARE WRONG.


User currently offlineIL76TD From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6195 times:

I still think it is funny that a few months ago people were saying that NW was the most solid US airline because they 'owned all their planes'...

...ha...


User currently onlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5115 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5916 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 17):


If what you are saying is that US airlines do not have foreign nationals in management positions, YOU ARE WRONG.

I didn't say that. What I was sarcastically referring to is the many US corporations outsource thier workforce overseas, but for example NW doesn't outsource thier management functions to KLM for example, thus cutting management positions in the US. The golden parachutes are kept inhouse.



Ozark Flies Your Way
User currently offlineWdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 961 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5805 times:

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 6):
AND doug will be a legend in the airline circles of who was the first to break those greedy unions and give those hefty bonuses to the upper mgmt for a job well done for getting 70% of the flights out on tim

Why thank you, I am already legend. (FYI... My name is Doug)

This NWA situation needs to get figured out quickly. Nothing good is being done for the airline or for the mechanics right now except negative press. Using overseas F/A's could indeed work very well. If they [Philippine F/A's] are getting paid enough to live like the American F/A's in the Philippines then why not have them fly on Domestic routes. As long as they get home in time and can still properly afford their life style back overseas.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3613 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

I don't know about US legislation, but in the EU, you can only employ people that have a valid working permit. In Germany and all other EU countries, a working permit is only given to certain groups of foreigners: a) EU nationals (a person from France, Greece or every other EU or EEA country like for example Switzerland has the exact same rights to work as has a German in Germany), and b) other foreigners who got a working permit because they have a residence permit, maybe because they are married with a EU national, because they have been granted asylum or because the employer couldn't find an employee from a EU country to do the job (for example it is hard to find Japanese speaking cabin attendands for flights to Japan).

That means that you cannot employ African or US citizens on a EU flight, lets say from Germany to England on a German based carrier, unless you got a work permit for these people, which would be impossible as EU flight attendands are just as good to do the job. Of course, Lufthansa has cabin attendands that are not EU citizens, but that is another story.

I would be very surprised if this was different in the US. Of course, outsourcing of engineers is something that is different. As the aviation business is global, it is not that difficult to fly to an airport where maintenance is cheaper, but IMHO this is only possible to a limited extend.

Michael


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

Northwest employs less than 10 managers in Europe and except for one they are all foreign nationals. All other management responsibilities are filled by KLM. The reverse is true of KLM in the US.

In Asia, Northwest has many managers but with the exception of a handful, they are all foreign nationals.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2180 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5075 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 21):
That means that you cannot employ African or US citizens on a EU flight, lets say from Germany to England on a German based carrier, unless you got a work permit for these people, which would be impossible as EU flight attendands are just as good to do the job.

And also, these non-EU people would have to be employed under a German contract, which means same pay and work conditions as the EU workers, hence, no money saved for the company!

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 8):
would you feel safe flying on nwa with MNL based flight attds trained by a bangalore based flight crew training company?????call me crazy but it could happen

I unfortunately think you are right. Not immediately, but this may likely happen in the long term if this phenomenon develops too much... You developed a worrying idea for the future of airplane transportation... And I would not be surprised if CEOs try to put presssure on the governments to make them modify laws to allow this... Just like what sometimes happens in sea cargo ships, where a Liberia-registered ship chartered by a wealthy multinational company and operated by a Philippine crew sinks because the crew did not understand the orders of the drunk captain (from any non-Philippine speaking country you want) who did not even noticed his ship was too rotten to float... This situation is a caricature of course, but not so far from what happened with the oil tanker Erika who ruined the Brittany coast a few years ago for example.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4915 times:

More grist for the mill. Pan Am employees of foreign countries, eg UK, France, etc were guaranteed their pensions when Pan Am went under. American employees lost their pensions. From a pension perspective it isn't always wise to outsource!

25 Gilligan : I flew on NH, CA, and CZ within the last month and found their inflight crews to be completely professional. Good or better service than I have gotten
26 TheSonntag : In Germany we always criticise our labour costs, but I really think that our social security system is something that is worth it. I just read that G
27 Squid : Yes you finally get it. If it is good for the business, then in the long run it is good for America. These practices allow the company to lower their
28 TheSonntag : I am just asking, do you mean that serious or is it ironic? Allowing Amerincans to travel for less sounds fine, but if you do that everywhere, which
29 777PURSER : I don't quite understand what you mean by this. It's not clear. I will correct you though, American has four foreign national bases: Santiago, Buenos
30 777PURSER : I find the answer much more simple. No Green Card, no job within the US. They can work internationally, but not domestically. An airline would have t
31 Dougloid :
32 Daron4000 : For the record, I personally love Phillipinos as a culture and are so friendly so minus the wages for which they should be paid higher, I would love t
33 LMP737 : Squid: Where exactly have you learned this negative re-enforcment style of management you seem to believe in? Please tell me it's no the Navy. If you
34 Squid : My father owns his own business, and the union he deals with is slowly killing the business. He earns less than his senior employees, and he is the ow
35 LMP737 : Now it makes a bit more sense. Your angry and bitter about the state of your fathers company so you lash out at people who have absolutely nothing to
36 Squid : Well I for one don't view it as a scorched earth style of management, I feel that if that is how I want to run my company, than you can take it or lea
37 TheSonntag : While I never was manager for anything and I agree that somebody has to say things, it is not advisable to treat your employees like if you were in th
38 Paddy78 : Yeah, there is no way you and I would play nice...espcially if I was in a union and you were my boss. I had an old managment professor who used to sa
39 LMP737 : If what you have learned about leadership and management is rule with an iron fist that tells me you are currently in a piss poor command. Basically
40 Acidradio : Our industry is a victim of its own success. Think about it - we live in a day and age where it is logistically possible and feasible to employ flight
41 9844 : JAL uses Thai flt attnd and HNL based Aussie pilots. Bottom line is uncle OIL and 100 dollars a barrel.It wont matter what you make today.It won't las
42 Lono : No assumptions here NW history is full of this type of thing... Again NW has a history of labor strife... They are not going anywhere!!! NW will be a
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