Afterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21310 times:
My wife just sent me a text message about this. A plane has crashed in Medan, North Sumatra. She said the governor of North Sumatra might be aboard the aircraft.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4493 posts, RR: 58 Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21247 times:
Unfortunately... yes...
Mandala, aborted take off gone wrong.
Current info from within company:
PK-RIM 732, schedule of the day: CGK-MES-CGK-PKU-CGK-*
Possible multiple engine fail just after V1. Eye witnesses said aircraft appears to have lost stability on the runway. Unclear whether it went airborne or not however info from sources in company so far saying not likely to have reached airborne.
RI-091 Capt. Askar Timur. FO Daufir Effendi, FA1 Agnes Retnaning.
News saying possible no survivors due to explosion at impact with houses.
RIP...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4493 posts, RR: 58 Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21126 times:
Aircraft was due to get repainted into its new c/s soon...
This was also one of the 732s to be retained as part of Mandala's fleet restructuring which will see the 732s replaced except for airports which can only take the 732s.
2 possibilities from sources inside company is engine fail at/near V1 go airborne, then failed to maintain airborne or remaining engines failed.
Other possibility is as written in my previous reply.
RIM has been involved in a few wheelbrake "degraded performance" incidents before.
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3895 posts, RR: 75 Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21064 times:
As usual in Indonesia, information is very hard to get by and I've had several accounts now as to what exactly happened and where the wreckage is located. However, there's currently a complete groundstop to Medan and Garuda flights on the way there are ordered to return to Jakarta, so normal operations at Medan's Polonia Airport seem definitely to be on hold.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 26932 posts, RR: 56 Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21024 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 9): 2 possibilities from sources inside company is engine fail at/near V1 go airborne, then failed to maintain airborne or remaining engines failed.
Both Engines.
Was it Turbine Disentagration which the JT8Ds are prone to.What type -17s.
Any link.
regds
MEL
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4493 posts, RR: 58 Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 20832 times:
One a.net member here invited me on PK-RIM in PKU/WIBB 2 years a month ago... It was a nice plane... And coincidentally, he was to operate this schedule either yesterday or today (if today then he'd be in it)... but called in sick!
RIM is -15As, 737-230 from 1981, been with Mandala since 1994. Antiskid rumoured to be a bit "iffy" and it has caused a few slips in recent years.
Now the governor of North Sumatra is reported to be on the plane...
Mandala was a regular "incident" customer of Medan airport in the propeller days when the L188 electras would make a belly landing there at about once every 2 years... since the 732s were introduced Mandala have improved its safety records dramatically. However, recent fuel prices, RVSM and competition have caused it to loose about 650k USD a month from inside sources... This crash would put further doubt on it's future...
With Bouraq gone, now this crash with Mandala... I fear that next year there won't be any pre-98 players left in the scheduled market apart from Garuda and Merpati (who is also hanging by a thread)...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4493 posts, RR: 58 Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 20712 times:
Just in: Aircraft appeared to have tried to maintain airborne, but "wiggled" then fell ontoa bunch of houses 900m from the runway end. Just saw the news footage. It's grim... No more wings (could have been left in a house it fell onto), all there is left is a burning fuselage. Barely missed a local minibus which is all but charred now. It's a dense road it has crashed on and looks like quite a few ground casualties too.
Could be an uncontained blade failure or stalling on single engine... as witnesses said the plane "wiggled" then dove onto the road...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Dogfighter2111 From United Kingdom (Scotland), joined Nov 2004, 1949 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 20415 times:
An Indonesian Government spokesman has said all 117 aboard the aircraft were killed.
AirplaneDork From United States, joined Jul 2005, 96 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 20403 times:
Just in on CNN.com at 1:49 AM EDT, "A government spokesman in Indonesia says all 117 people aboard a jetliner that crashed were killed, reports The Associated Press." Apparently there will be more details to come.
God rest their souls.
To fly, the dream of man and flightless bird alike!
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 2284 posts, RR: 17 Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 20367 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 17): Could be an uncontained blade failure or stalling on single engine... as witnesses said the plane "wiggled" then dove onto the road...
Speculating at this stage is kind of futile, but why would loosing an engine at V1 (stall/failure) etc. would affect so much the flying characteristics of the plane? I thought there is a drill for loosing an engine at V1, certainly on a 732, and it is supposed to climb, get back in the pattern and land (I'm leaving out some items) . I don't see why it should loose an engine, be uncapable of climb on the working engine or climb through ground-effect, stall, and then slam into the ground.
It makes me think excess weight? distracted pilots? structural damage on the ground at V-1? unreliable engines due to economic performance of the airline?
over-rotation? locked elevators? bad positioning of CG? failed trim?
I am following on a past post in this thread and everything I wrote is pure commenting on a developing situation to which I don't have all the information. Feel free to tear at every idea or take it and run with it. Just don't call refer to me as a "speculator".
Afterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 20258 times:
Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 20): An Indonesian Government spokesman has said all 117 aboard the aircraft were killed.
That doesn't include the people on the ground that might also be killed.
26 Spacecadet: I hoped this would stop after August was over, but I guess not. Sad I don't think the laws of chance pay attention to the Christian calendar. Crashes
27 Glidepath73: I thought the same: A bad way to start for September. Let's hope this is not a new series now... What is going on? Are there ion storms or lot's of s
28 LFutia: I can confirm its PK-RIM. It's on the front page of De Telegraaf. -- www.telegraaf.nl Such a tragedy. my heart goes out to the Indonesians.
29 Dogfighter2111: That is correct, such a shame. But, don't any of you think it is weird how nobody survived when the aircraft would have been at a very low altitude?
30 Jafa39: Man, that just sucks................Heard it whilst in a shop, bugger, bugger, bugger! My heart goes out to all affected.
31 A390: Yesterday I joined A.net, what a way to start! RIP
32 FlyboyOz: here's a video clip of plane crash in indonesia http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=10700
33 EK156: What a year!!! And it's not over yet!! I hope no more crashes occur this year.... Unbelievable... another 737 as well!!!
34 Alessandro: Of the last 8 crashes with +100 victims, 6 have been a B737, 1 have been a B727 and 1 have been a MD-80. May their souls rest in peace.
35 Dogfighter2111: There was somebody talking about the Helios Crash on BBC just after it happened and they said that you have more of a chance being in a B737 when it
36 HT: This is probably just because of the high number of all B737´s produced and still flying. So its just a statistical figure and does mean nothing at
37 ScarletHarlot: Aren't there more 737s operating commercially than any other aircraft? If so, stands to reason that a random person is more likely to fly on a 737 tha
38 Flykal: And when I drive a car in Korea, I have more chance of being in a Hyundai when it crashes. Pure statistics my friend.
39 Alessandro: I don´t know if the risk is bigger in a B737, but the last two years the B737 has had a poor track-record, especially the older -200 series....
40 DeltaA380: Mandala499, thank you for your insight into this crash, yes there is a lot of speculation at this point as other readers have suggested but it is int
41 Atmx2000: Its also likelier that they will be older, or older models. Older model aircraft have less safety features than newer models. A320s and 737NGs are al
42 Glareskin: so let's use some figures to proof this statement wrong: http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/
43 PanHAM: I haven't done the calculation, but given that there are around 4200 Boeing 737 of all series around and the next airliner family a320 has approximate
45 Flanker: RIP. sad, very sad. Crashed into houses.
46 Cricket: Richard Quest speculated about what could have gone wrong on CNN International, and being an aviation expert he spoke very well. However, what nobody
47 LHB727230Adv: Not another crash, just saw the report on CNN. This is definitely not the best year for aviation. R.I.P. Alex
48 Macc: i have a sour taste in my throat. i may have been on that plane some years ago. which would make it the 4th plane i was flying with which later crashe
49 HB-IWC: A sad day for Indonesian aviation, but one that was unfortunately waiting to happen for a long time. Domestic ticket prices have been a rock bottom le
50 Mika: As many posters above you said, the likelyhood of being in an 737 in the off chance that you are caught in an emergency is larger because there are m
51 EddieGunsmoke: Seriously Alessandro, why don't you start a new thread if you want to discuss the safety of the 737. You wrote the same thing when the Helios plane c
52 EZEIZA: Seems that "Black August" has gone straight into September I just heard the news ... terrible From what I have read in this thread, the crash has s
53 DeltaWings: Lets put it this way, its been a terrible summer fot aviation safety. Thre has not been any 727 crash recently, at least.
55 Debonair: Hi folks, i had this night a nightmare about a plane-crash. when i woke up, my friends were watching TV-news on this accident... Can anyone give me in
56 Erela: Does anyone else wonder it is so creapy that a/c crashes seem to follow each other in such a short period of time. Once something happens, a few other
57 EZEIZA: Well, given the tragedy, that is at least alittle good news
58 EZEIZA: It was delivered to LH as D-ABHK in 1981
59 Lufthansa747: Yes they are low-cost carrier, but their service was not bad when I flew them. Just posted a trip report actually. BKK-CGK-SUB-CGK-BKK Lufthansa/Mand
60 Spotterke: Sad sad sad,my thoughts are with the victims and their relatives.Seems that 2005 isn't going to be the best year for aviation
61 Mandala499: Latest news: 1 survivor but unconfirmed on state/condition/ground casualty or pax. Recent shots from a member of the local indonesian aviation site re
62 PanHAM: City name was "Bayreuth" orig config 8F88Y There are not too many around in passenger service these days. But given the environment the remaining one
63 VivaGunners: That's very very sad again... Let's hope for a better future. RIP to all the victims.
64 Mandala499: Oops revise that... 9 pax survived. 1 relatively uninjured. 88 bodies is in the morgue, mostly pax, 6 non pax. Had a meeting cancelled today because s
65 BMIFlyer: This is awful Hope they all Rest in Peace...... Lee
66 LZ-TLT: What bugs me on that crash - it bears a similarity to a LZ Yak-40 crash back in 1988. A Yak-40 taking off from LBSF could just barely get airborne usi
67 BuyantUkhaa: Why is weight such an issue specifically at Medan? Is it a high-altitude airport? From the aerial pic it doesn't seem to be...
68 Mandala499: Buyant, Coz those MDL 732s often fly out of MES at or near MTOW... any "extra weight" could result in catastrophe... Your V speeds would be off the ma
69 LTBEWR: Another sad crash, with not only dead (with maybe a few survivors) on the a/c but also many on the ground. Apparently weather wasn't a problem here, b
70 A342: German press reports 8 survivors and dozens of fatalities on the ground as the plane crashed near a well-visited market. They say before the crash the
71 NA: I want to refer to the safety-record of the 737 as discussed earlier in this thread because what was said I find absolutely insufficient. While the 73
72 Palladium: I never trust Mandala Airlines, that airlines is doomed, the carrier uses bunch of old 737-200 and their maintenance is very very poor. I flew with th
73 ZRH: It is a catastrophe for all victims, relatives and friends. But it is obvious that all these crashes happened with rather suspect charter and third wo
74 SA006: Old aircraft isn't the issue here. Take an airline like SAA , who are still operating 737-200's and untill early 2004 747-SP's , 747-200's and 747-30
75 Cricket: According to the Associated Press the death toll stands at 131. The plane was carrying 116 passengers and not 117 (one person who must praying profuse
76 7of9: An Indonesian jetliner crashed in a crowded residential neighborhood in the city of Medan seconds after takeoff Monday, killing 131 people, including
78 DeC: A plane full of fuel after taking off and crashing? Man there's SO little to NO chance for it not to explode and erupt in flames.
79 Mandala499: Palladium, I've been on scarier newer planes in Indonesia than Mandala 732s... Even some Garuda planes... But yes, want the most assured safety in Ind
80 Pilotaydin: old aircraft is def not the issue here, some dc-3s and 707s are in better shape than newer aircraft are.... when i think of this accident, i think of
81 Scotland1979: Not again! Got info of this aircraft... 1981 Lufthansa D-ABHK 1994 Tunisair TF-ABY 1994 Lufthansa D-ABHK 1994 Mandala Airlines PK-RIM My heart goes to
82 DeC: Also check the details at http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20050905-0
83 AM744: The only connection I see in these accidents is that these a/c were flown by substandard airlines that are tolerated by substandard local authorities
84 Gearup: Ah well! so it goes...but welcome to A.net anyways. The good thing is that these kinds of accidents are rare, Thank God. Thoughts and prayers to fami
85 Flybyguy: Unfortunately, most of the crashes that occurred during last month and today involve third world airlines that probably have poor maintenance program
86 Zamaria: Sorry, but what is RVSM? Something to do with Seat Miles? Thanks, -Z
88 Lando: Damn these past few months in aviation have been horrible. I hope these bad streak ends soon. My regards go out to all the families affected by the cr
89 777klm: I just started a thread about another crash today involving an Antonov in Congo, 11 people didn't survive the accident. It was an Antonov-26 operated
90 OPNLguy: With all due respect, one thing that you're overlooking is that there is a -huge- difference between an accident RECORD and accident RATE. Making com
91 Luisca: Almost all of the recent hull losses on the 732 were from third world airlines with substandard maintenance. That is a trend that will unfortunately
92 MIAMIx707: Did you see any of the Southwest, Delta 732s crashing? Actually, while the 732's record is statistically horrible and the facts don't lie, it's easy
93 Access-Air: To Pilotaydin: "when i think of this accident, i think of similar accidents, the Air Florida 737-200 that crashed after take off, for different reason
94 GARPD: Why do you insist on repeating this rubbish on every forum you post on?! I know you are pro airbus, but pointing out such statistics to serve your ow
95 AR385: I certainly find the term "third world country or carrier" (however that is defined, means or implies) too loosely used as an item of causality in ma
96 Andz: Zak....the 732s were retired at the end of June...
97 Fanofjets: Having just fired up the old PC to purchase a book for my wife, news of this horrible crash was right there on my home page. Indonesian links and a fe
98 SA006: Andz , I saw ZS-SIE fly into JNB on Tuesday last week. -SA006
99 NA: To all defending the 737-200´s safety: Let me tell you even when young this type had a relatively high accident rate. To hack on Airbus in this respe
100 CORULEZ05: Forget all the statistics and technical facts...THIS IS the new way to explain airplane disasters.... Ban old aircraft? That is outrageous. As others
101 GARPD: And that is why you only have an RR of 4 after over 3K of posts. The 732 has a perfectly fine safety record. The 732 has proven so flexible, so versi
102 PlanesNTrains: I think these are good points. It's easy to fall into the "third world" trap, when in reality most of us have no clue about the standards and operati
103 AR385: It does not make any difference to me either, but, there are strong fleets of 732 in many parts of the planet and they are immaculate. I for one woul
104 OPNLguy: First, I'm not defending Boeing... Secondly, taking your statement on the 737-200s early "relatively high accident rate" purely at face value, you st
105 Skywatch: My condolences to all involved. This month is off to a not-so-great start in the realms of weather, and now, aviation. As mentioned before, the main r
106 ZRH: I think it is nonsense to count the accidents per type of aircraft as all airliners (all B and all A and others) are very safe when they are maintaine
107 D5DBY: oki..........what happened....i got no idea.....please somebody tell me...lol I guess the AC stalled.....
108 GARPD: Reports so far suggest an engine issue after or on take off. Aircraft was seen to be struggling to stay aloft. Survivors report funny engine sounds a
109 Atmx2000: I wonder if the fuel price issue is causing some of the less reputable airlines to cut back on mx and other safety related issues. Perhaps that is a
110 OPNLguy: Relating to my posts #90 and #104, I went back to the data from www.aviation-safety.net (GREAT site..) and pulled the following data on 737-200 hull l
111 BuyantUkhaa: One of the most common ways of looking at an aircraft type's safety record is the number of hull losses per million flights (you may even factor in th
112 OPNLguy: True, but folks should keep in mind that even when expressed as accidents per million flight hours, the aircraft's operating environment and other fa
113 Mandala499: Would have loved to post another reply last night but I had to console my wife coming back from a day's flying and she was shaking everytime we saw th
114 Comorin: What a sad event today in Indonesia. Two questions - hopefully not off topic: 1. Don't airliners have strain gauges that can measure TOW? 2. Even if M
115 OPNLguy: 1. On the 737, no, nor any other aircraft that I'm familar with (but I'm not familar with ALL, certainly). 2. MTOW-related accidents are rare, and ev
116 DeC: The update from aviation-safety.net ASN ACCIDENT DIGEST 2005-22 Date: 05 SEP 2005 Time: ca 09:40 local time Type: Boeing 737-230 Operator: Mandala Air
117 Comorin: Thanks for clearing this up. I'm sure we will know more as the investigation unfolds. It seems to me that most aviation mishaps stem from human facto
118 Mandala499: OPNL, It's 2h15 schedule with Mandala for MES-CGK, alternates are 250NM away. Unfortunately, other details which can be posted shouldn't be posted. MT
119 Mandala499: To add to the mess, now a GA181 (734) from MES to CGK also made an emergency landing, this time in Pekanbaru WIBB, social affairs minister on board. R
120 OPNLguy: That would put his burn at roughly 11,000-11,500 lbs, so that'd be about 116,000-116,500 MTOW limited by landing at CGK, under the 119,500 MTOW at ME
121 Mandala499: OPNL. Likely doesn't mean that it's the cause... But if it's an overweight (correction... not necessarily over MTOW), it's gotta be a huge one... Post
122 OPNLguy: Saw this in one article.... "Survivors said the plane started to shake heavily after take off, and failed to clear landing system instruments at the
123 Mandala499: Off topic... Now the single engine GA might have my friend F/Oin the flight On topic: OPNL, as far as I know there isn't an ILS for runway 23... With
124 HT: Is a second (?) engine failure for a flight originating at MES just a coincidence ? I assume the investigation will also have a look into fuel qualit
125 DeC: Mandala499, thanks for the info. Please keep us informed on any reports from your government and all.
126 SATX: If aviation is the safe way to fly, what's the unsafe way?
127 Mandala499: Well, for the GA incident, a better detail is at: Medan - Jakarta Garuda 734 Diverted. 1 Engine. (by Mandala499 Sep 6 2005 in Civil Aviation) Back to
128 Scarebus03: Hello all, Mandala 499 thanks for all your updates my heart goes out to all involved both, casualties and those left behind, families and airline staf
129 SATX: This was meant to be a joke, actually, as in 'how else do humans fly?' The only ways I could think of were cliff jumpers and human cannonballs. Every
130 LH526: Judign that list the B732 might look relatively unsafe. But don't we forget to put into account the amoun of legs it flies thoughout a day? Let's say
131 Concentriq: Very sad. looks like it fell in heavily populated area pics of crash... WARNING!!!!!! some pics are of VERY disturbing nature. this is a photojournali
132 MidnightMike: Have they released the Mandala pilot names yet? We trained some of the crews on the 737-200, several years ago, wanted to send the family's my condol
133 Kaitak: See reply No113 above. The crew were: Capt. Askar Timur: From Southwind Brownsville Texas, been captain for a year. F/O Daufir Effendi: Recently promo
134 Lufthansa747: International average? And the operating environments and equipment are the same?????? IMHO It's ridiculous to blame Mandala or the "old" aircraft on
135 D5DBY: hi! mandala499 where did u get this info about the MTOW? can u post a link or something? thanks in advance.
136 Lufthansa747: From his friend. Read the thread. IMHO such an occurrence would be rahter likely to happen than not.
137 D5DBY: where did u find this quote? is this from a pilot employed by Mandala Airlines? u are friends with this pilot and he told u this? where did u get thi
138 Mandala499: All crew names have been released. I missed out on the 3rd CA name. Looks like CA1 Agnes Retnaning is a well known CA1 within Mandala, a loss to both
139 Mandala499: Amongst the good news that the number of Survivors has now increased to 18, the media floodgates of frenzy has now been opened... Some that I've read:
140 HAWK21M: Any Official Preliminary report released. regds MEL
141 Mandala499: Not yet. Only public comments by the NTSC are: 1. Not terrorism 2. Black Boxes recovered. 3. No abnormalities in ATC conversation. 4. Weather as cause
142 HT: While the density of a durian should be a bit higher than 1 gram/litre, the shape of the fruit would make for some open space in any container. There
143 VirginFlyer: Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean - are fuel problems are no longer being investigated, or they are being looked at? I read a brief artic
144 Mandala499: VF, I didn't get the full info on NTSC's explanation regarding what fuel issues they're looking at. If I remember correctly, the media was mentioning
145 Mandala499: 2 tons of Durian would requre a truck, but now there's evidence that 2 tons was loaded and not put into the loadsheet The bigger version is availab
Sponsor Message: 
From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 7001 posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 820 posts, 
From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 454 posts, 
From Greece, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, 
From Latvia, joined Sep 2003, 934 posts, 
From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1520 posts, 
From India, joined Jan 2001, 26932 posts, 
From Finland, joined May 1999, 2919 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From United States, joined Aug 2005, 558 posts, .gif){kind=small}
From United Kingdom (Scotland), joined Nov 2004, 1949 posts, 
From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 2284 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
