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PAP Not Safe?  
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

I saw signs at DFW and MIA this weekend that said the FAA has determined that PAP does not employ sufficient security procedures.

If that is the case, is AA still allowed to fly MIA-PAP? I'm surprised that (1) AA would fly the route if the airport was deemed unsafe, and that (2) the FAA would allow flights originating at PAP to land in the US.

Does anyone have info on this?


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

Quoting Ssides (Thread starter):
If that is the case, is AA still allowed to fly MIA-PAP?

Yes, although AA does not RON any aircraft at PAP overnight. It has three morning originators -- one each from FLL, JFK and MIA that all get to PAP in the late morning or afternoon, sit on the ground there for just long enough to unload and reload passengers and cargo, and refuel, and then its out again, and then a second MIA flight that comes in and leaves in the late afternoon.

AA turns those planes fast so they aren't sitting long on the ground in PAP -- they turn the JFK A300 in 70 minutes, and the two MIA A300 flights in 73 minutes.

Quoting Ssides (Thread starter):
I'm surprised that (1) AA would fly the route if the airport was deemed unsafe, and that (2) the FAA would allow flights originating at PAP to land in the US.

AA flies to FLL-PAP, JFK-PAP and MIA-PAP for one reason: the money.

Because of the intense security situation, the level of air capacity into and out of Haiti is extremely low. Thus, the few airlines that do fly there derive huge yields from very high fares to and from PAP. Let's put it this way -- not too many Haitians in PAP are logging on to Orbitz.com to get a $199 RT fare.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

I knew AA's PAP flights were very profitable, but I'm still a bit surprised that the FAA would allow flights to the US from there. I guess since AA is a US carrier, they have good access to all the flight manifests, and AA is probably doing a decent job of controlling who gets on the plane at PAP.

Do any other US carriers serve PAP?



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

In addition, I do not think AA's flight crews overnight or even leave the airport in PAP.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
Yes, although AA does not RON any aircraft at PAP overnight. It has three morning originators -- one each from FLL, JFK and MIA that all get to PAP in the late morning or afternoon, sit on the ground there for just long enough to unload and reload passengers and cargo, and refuel, and then its out again, and then a second MIA flight that comes in and leaves in the late afternoon.

This is the slow season, though. November through August, AA operates three daily MIA-PAP, and during the summer they add a fourth daily. American Airlines is the single largest airline into and out of Haiti. The other major airlines serving Port Au Prince are Air Canada (Montreal), Air France (Miami and Pointe A Pitre), and Copa (Panama City via Kingston).



a.
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

As said above, no matter how unsafe it is, the money is the leading horse.

They charge astronomical sums for a 1h30 mins flight with crappy service, and they don't care since nobody else flies the route.

They have been giving that disclaimer for a while now, probably because the FAA requires them to, and to avoid annoying legal involvements.

When departing Haiti, you go through the airports' security checkpoints first. There are two of them, one before entering the check-in terminal and one after you check immigration. For an AA flight you go through one additionnal checkpoint (a little more thourough) and then you are led into AA's (and AC's) waiting room.
It's daunting...

AA has never had any problems in terms of operating safety in PAP, they have always flown there even when there were civil disturbances early last year, and up to the very last minute (we realized they knew better than anyone what was going on...).

There is an area of the town that's right on the 2 miles final to runway 10 and which is in the hands of the rebels. Even the UN don't go there (then again, they ain't doing much of anything here...). Some aircrafts have been shot at on final already, even an AA A300 once, but apparently it didn't really affect their operation here.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1766 times:

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 5):
They charge astronomical sums for a 1h30 mins flight with crappy service, and they don't care since nobody else flies the route.

I know the flight is very profitable, but I just checked MIA-PAP in November and got $269 round-trip (before taxes). Hardly seems unreasonable.

On a related note, who pays these astronomical fares? I know Haiti is a very, very poor country, and while there's business there, it surprises me that there's that much demand.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 5):
and they don't care since nobody else flies the route.

Air France flies MIA-PAP. Better service too, they actually offer hot meals on the flight.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 6):

I know the flight is very profitable, but I just checked MIA-PAP in November and got $269 round-trip (before taxes). Hardly seems unreasonable.

The average fare on the route is closer to $450. That is on the low side. Also a lot of last minute traffic.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 6):

On a related note, who pays these astronomical fares? I know Haiti is a very, very poor country, and while there's business there, it surprises me that there's that much demand.

If you can want/need to travel to Haiti, chances are you can afford the fares. Also, Fort Lauderdale has a very wealthy Haitian ex-pat community that travels back frequently (FLL-PAP is AA's best performing single Haiti flight).



a.
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

CM is one of the few airlines which fly to PAP but it has seldom happened that the PAP flights have been cancelled due to the situation in Haïti.
The PAP / KIN route may be CM most profitable one; maybe because CM still only flies there twice per week and maybe because it seems that one's the only flight from Latinamerica (don't want to discuss if PTP/FDM is Latinamerica too) to PAP and KIN. Those PTY - PAP / KIN flights would be ideal with B737 Combi.. the amount of cargo the passengers take with them is amazing.
Having said this, I must add that the notorious CM PAP / KIN flights are the most neglected and forgotten when it comes to passenger attention.
It's said that the flight attendants will try to avoid working that specific flight.
And there's even more, often prestigious CM has cancelled (cancelled, not changed the flight times) the PAP / KIN flights and told passengers to wait a couple of days until the next CM available flight!
A decent responsible airline doesn't behave like that.
If CM is such a good airline, They should be good on ALL their routes.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting Ssides (Reply 6):
I know the flight is very profitable, but I just checked MIA-PAP in November and got $269 round-trip (before taxes). Hardly seems unreasonable.

On a related note, who pays these astronomical fares? I know Haiti is a very, very poor country, and while there's business there, it surprises me that there's that much demand.

The flights are a money making machine becouse of the cargo that they carry, the A300 has a very good cargo capacity and these people carry huge amounts of cargo, and they dont mind paying 100 or 200 for overweight.

Same thing with CM in pty.

About how CM treats its PAP/KIN flights, don't you think their is a reason why crews hate that flight, the behavior of some of the passengers is unbelievable, while in the chekin counter in panama, I saw these people arrive to the counter for the PAP flight and they were carriying 14 bags, paid 300 dollars for overwieght, no problem. They then went into the bathroom of the airport and changed, etc, and were carriying food, and the smell was just awfull, no wonder crews hate this flight.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Quoting Luisca (Reply 9):
About how CM treats its PAP/KIN flights, don't you think their is a reason why crews hate that flight, the behavior of some of the passengers is unbelievable, while in the chekin counter in panama, I saw these people arrive to the counter for the PAP flight and they were carriying 14 bags, paid 300 dollars for overwieght, no problem. They then went into the bathroom of the airport and changed, etc, and were carriying food, and the smell was just awfull, no wonder crews hate this flight.

Those PAP and KIN bound passengers don't behave the same way when flying out of MIA or JFK?



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 10):

Those PAP and KIN bound passengers don't behave the same way when flying out of MIA or JFK?

Nobody said or implied otherwise.



a.
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

Let's concentrate to the subject of this topic.
A lot could be said of the peculiarities of the flights to PAP, but that's for another topic.
I believe PAP airport still is a safe airport, If AA does fly there, it must; a US airline won't venture in an unsafe airport with commercial flights if it was unsafe.
Maybe DL (from JFK or ATL - this one if they get good connecting traffic) or CO (from EWR) should study flying to PAP.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1483 times:

AA has its own security personnel in PAP therefore it has another layer of protection besides what PAP Airport authorities provide. There are also many things going on "backstage" not visible to the customer(s) that ensure safety. The same happens in other airports and other carriers operate to places clasified "unsafe" by the FAA.

User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7444 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1463 times:
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That service warning regarding PAP has been at FAA security checkpoints since AT LEAST June 2001.

I remember it well simply because that was the summer I noticed the sign whilst traveling to Sydney AND, well, some of my family are living in Haiti still(so I take notice of things pertaining to Haiti).

It is a MONEY route, no doubt. The planes are usually full and especially full of cargo.

As I have an aunt working at AA, even she has had a very difficult time trying to fly standby to visit her mom(my grandmother) so she'd buy the ticket instead.

Haiti's violence seems to wax and wane. We just flew my paralyzed-on-one-side grandmother out of PAP a month ago when we heard the political situ was crazy. It was an overnight decision to move her to NY. She came on AA and again spoke of the usual packed route.

Also, our neighbor across the street is Haitian. She is one of the FA's for AA that work that routeJFK-MIA. Man, when she comes over, you have to hear the stories about those flights! Truly sad, though sometimes funny.

Also, as an aside, dont they also list an airport in Kuala Lumpur too?



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