Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12161 posts, RR: 35 Posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8537 times:
With Aer Lingus due to announce a replacement for its A330 fleet, there are increasingly strong signs that it will go for Boeings rather than Airbuses. Although there could be an element of psychology involved (i.e. not letting Airbus think it has EI "in the bag" just because it operates A320/321s already), I have heard numerous rumours about EI and Boeings - 777s and 787s - in recent years; I haven't heard one rumour about A350s. I get the impression that it leaves EI (as well as most other carriers distinctly cold).
The latest rumour surrounds 11 787s, for delivery from 2008 - which would presumably make them -800s, although I'd expect EI to go for -900s in due course. It's also been rumoured that two 777s will be acquired on wet lease. That particular part of the rumour doesn't seem right; certainly, they may - and probably will get 777s as a stopgap, but I can't see the Irish Airline Pilots Association being very keen on wet leases!
However, I think we can expect an EI Boeing deal before the end of the year.
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8051 times:
Quoting RootsAir (Reply 1): Why do they want to replace their A330's already. Aren't they less than 10 years old ?
The A330 fleet at EI isn't owned by them, and they have disposed of others when the leases expired.
It was Willie Walsh who drove the agenda with the Airbus/GE preference, so now he's gone it does give pointers to future BA policy as the chief exec does set the agenda somewhat. There is no reason whatsoever why EI should not give the Boeing product serious attention, and a 767-size aircraft might be a better fit for them than an A350. Same as with LOT.
B742 From UK - England, joined Mar 2005, 3760 posts, RR: 20 Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7863 times:
Quoting LH477 (Reply 5): Wouldn't switching to 787 reduce their capacity?
Yes, quite a big decrease on the 333's!
I think the A350 would be better suited for EI, seeing as they already operate a large Airbus fleet, and a A330-A350 transition wouldnt be too costly! Also I think if EI were to get the 787 then they would also need either the larger 900 model or some 777's!
What are EI's loads on all US flights, JFK, LAX...??
Shamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6197 posts, RR: 14 Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7756 times:
The A350 seems a better aircraft for Aer Lingus, on grounded Ireland they were talking about the both aircraft and which suited Aer Lingus more and the A350 came out best most of the time. The 787-800 is too small compared to the A330-300 but they would need an aircraft that is able to go the long distances for the new routes expected.
I think the US routes are doing well, I just wish they would upgrade business but I cant see that happening until the new fleet arrives, maybe the leather seats like on the short-haul.
Does anyone know when the leases are up on the A330s?
Shamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6197 posts, RR: 14 Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7620 times:
I cant remember the Business class of Aer Lingus long haul and the last time I walked through it was a long time ago.
I was looking on the Aer Lingus website and saw a very small picture on the premier services section and saw the seats were black. Are they really Aer Lingus seats, or just for show?
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7611 times:
Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 8): The A350 seems a better aircraft for Aer Lingus, on grounded Ireland they were talking about the both aircraft and which suited Aer Lingus more and the A350 came out best most of the time.
which does not allow for the fact that they now have stronger competition in their own back yard from the US carriers. Their current or previous traffic levels are by no means guaranteed, nor is yield.
JetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7402 times:
Quoting B742 (Reply 7): What are EI's loads on all US flights, JFK, LAX...??
Well I know they always overbook alot out of JFK so therefore a lot of the flights are full. So when that A330 had to be taken out of service for an accident at DUB, they had tons of problems since they overbook. They will probably need a plane like the 330 or bigger for some flights. I think the A350 looks better for them.
Btriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7369 times:
Like what has been said above, I also believe EI should go for the A350. Aer Lingus is the ideal customer for this aircraft. They already have an A330 fleet (even though they are leased) which shares commonality with the A350. The A350 can also match the capacity of the A330 with added range. The 787, on the other hand, is quite a bit smaller. Unless EI ordered the 777 along with the 787, the 787 would not meet EI's capacity demands.
If Aer Lingus did buy either of these aircrafts, I don't think it would be to replace the A330 fleet, but to help expand there international network.
I would be lining up to buy a ticket if EI ordered either one of these babies.
Like I have said before, just one of those things on EI's "to do" list.
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7089 times:
The comment was made about the size difference between the A350 and the 787. Is the 787 about the same size as the 767? If so, the A350 wouldn't appear to be a direct competitor nearly so much as a it would be an improvement over an already well proven airplane (A330) and would thus fill the future needs of those airlines already using the A330. And that being the case, the 787 meets the needs of airlines needing 767 replacements. Boeing and Airbus thus would seem to be filling unique niches rather than competing directly as some have suggested.
Gearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6975 times:
Quoting GARPD (Reply 3): I think anything that suggests EI are interested in the 787/777 duo is purely tactical.
I am inclined to agree although I would like to see them use 777's on a new route to SE Asia or even Australia. As far as transatlantic is concerned EI have the ideal aircraft for their operation in the 330. I think the A350 might be a more suitable replacement for them than the 787. Strange as this might seem, I think a mix of 787/A350 could work for them to replace the A332 and A333. kind of like the happy mix of 777's and A330's a number of airlines operate now. I don't see commonality or brand loyalty being much of a factor. Politics might play a role however it will likely come down to the deal they get from A or B, hence the tactical posturing. I hope they get both.
Dalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6719 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter): The latest rumour surrounds 11 787s, for delivery from 2008 - which would presumably make them -800s,
If that is correct( I know it's a bit of an if), then EI must be one of the carriers to have reserved delivery positions with refundable deposits. You couldn't get 788s any other way in 2008.
For those of you who say the 787 is too small for EI, well maybe the 333 is too big. The mentioned wet-lease 777s would address the higher density routes and future 789 orders could also address that issue. Additionally,it is well known EI could operate 787s in a 9-abreast format with equivalent seat comfort to 8-abreast 330s. Turns the 788 into pretty much a 290-300 seater.
I also think EI may be looking at ordering more 787s than they have 330s at the moment to increase frequencies to certain destinations and open up new routes.
This sounds very plausible to me and all whispers I have heard concur that EI has always favoured the 787 over any of the many 350 iterations.
Frugalqxnwa From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 565 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6171 times:
I'm going to have to disagree with most posts in this thread and say the 787/777 combination would work very well from EI. If the JFK flights are overbooked as mentioned above, they can put a 777 on that route and have a slight increase in capacity. On the thinner transatlantic and any future medium/long-haul work can be done by the 787-8/-9. Either way, EI will probably be ordering the aircraft with an eye to expanding to new markets.
GARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2461 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5718 times:
Although I believe the A350 is the favorite in this decision. I must say that just because their current flights are almost always full, that does not necessarily mean they need a bigger aircraft.
Perhaps they intend to increase frequencies?
Perhaps despite loads the yield is low on a route, so perhaps downsizing to a smaller more efficient aircraft to increase yields would work out better?
Or perhaps they have seen the merits of a 777/787 fleet. The 787 has 3 types for 3 missions that all have the same cockpit but are designed to be more efficient in 3 separate ways. Essentialy 3 different aircraft in one package.
Then the 777, its economics are well known. And if EI really do need bigger aircraft, perhaps the 777 is it.
Now don't get me wrong folks. I'm not saying any of this is right or that because of either of this, Boeing has the deal in hand.
This is just an attempt to show that you can't always assume one aircraft has a fairer chance than the other based purely on loads or current fleet like many are doing here. The theories have their merits, yes, but don;t take all this into account.
MrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 502 posts, RR: 8 Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5709 times:
EI has three A332 and four A333. So, listening to THEM and not our often incorrect peers posting here, a 787 is not too small for their needs. For highly efficient shorter routes with high passenger counts, the 783 would be just about ideal. The problem with planes that are too big is that they are only efficient when they are full and they kill you when they are empty.
Given that there are only about four weeks of summer in Ireland and their tourist season is a few months, you don't need a A350 lumbering all year on the route. Since there is no "small" A350, the combination of 787s would do the trick quite nicely with maybe a A350 or 777 replacing it for a short time.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12161 posts, RR: 35 Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5617 times:
Just to comment on a few previous posts, I am aware of the possibility that EI might be playing games to try and get a better deal out of Airbus (and acknowledged this possibility in the first post); however, I have my ear to the ground on anything regarding EI and fleet plans and in the past year or so, virtually every rumoured (and these would not be rumours circulated by the company) has involved Boeings. Indeed, before this, it was rumoured that EI was more interested in 777s. However, it is expected that any 787 deal will - as indicated - involve an interim deal for 777s. I'd expect it to be more than just the two mentioned.
I don't think EI is alone in being left cold by the 350; indeed, despite last night's signing of the QR order, the numbers are stacked very much in the 787's favour. I get the impression that airlines are suspicious of Airbus's figures. They're talking about a rehashed A330 which just happens to beat the 787 in every way and I think airlines are asking how a rehash of an existing - albeit very popular design - can beat an all new model; they're also looking at current Airbus models, like the A340-5/600 which are falling short on promised performance. You must remember that for many, if not all, of the airlines ordering 787s, this aircraft represents the future for them; it's not just something that happens in 2008-10, it's an aircraft that must last them for 10+ years, so they're also asking if a rehash of an existing design will cut it, while their competitors go for something all new.
Yes, of course, EI will be (from late next month) an all-Airbus airline, with the retirement of the last 737-500s, ending a 36 year relationship with the 737 in various forms. It's not hard to see why people would expect EI to go for the 350, but commonality doesn't really work if the aircraft itself doesn't fit the bill. Indeed, even that might be unfair; if they got the 350, it might well serve them as well as the 330 did (and it served EI superbly), but EI appears to believe that the 787 would do the job better.
I'm a little surprised by the interest in the -800, but I'd say that they will certainly be an operator of the -900 when it becomes available. It could well be that if EI takes on 777s, these aircraft would continue until the -900 is available, rather than being let go once the -800s comes onstream. The -800 is around the same size as the 332, so it would probably be a replacement for that model, while the 777 would replace the 330-300s, which are a more important target for replacement.
Let's hope something comes out of this; from what I hear, we won't be waiting for too long. I've heard reports of an announcement by the end of next month.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12161 posts, RR: 35 Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5605 times:
BTriple7, they should of course lengthen the existing runway, but somehow I doubt it. The DAA (Dublin Airport Authority), which replaced Aer Rianta, has no current plans to lengthen it and the govt is not particularly interested in aviation policy, so it's unlikely to force them.
The new runway is expected to be operational in 2012.
That said, however, the light weight of the 787 (due to use of lighter materials) will contribute to a lower T/O length requirement, so EI should be okay to use the existing runway for its planned new long haul flights. The 777 would probably be restricted to former (current) 333 routes, so it might be okay. However, they're not doing it just for Aer Lingus and the economy would benefit from a longer runway, as this would allow longer nonstop flights, which is of particular importance to airlines in a time of high fuel costs.
Btriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 9 Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5585 times:
I think Kaitak summed it all up really well in the posts above. If EI were to purchase the 787, they would most likely order the 777 along with it. The 787 is also a lot more grounded than the A350. The A350 is only in the premature stages of design. The A350 is probably the better aircraft for EI right now, but Dermot Mannion might have some major plans for EI internationally, involving Boeing.
Of course, it might all be part of EI's game to get the best deal.
[Edited 2005-09-10 15:53:47]
25 RayChuang: I think the reason why EI is seriously looking at the 787-8 and 787-9 is the fact the A350 may offer less commonality with the A330 than what EI wants
26 EIRules: As usual I think Kaitak has summed it up. I think everything being equal (delivery dates especially) then EI would go for the 787. In the mean time th
27 IrishMD11: Oops, I feel that you're slightly beside the truth! Since I've emigrated some 20 years ago, and with many return trips to my Emerald Isle, I feel tha
28 Jacobin777: ever been to ORD when its -20C? Not fun....
29 EI321: New roumer that instead of taking interm 777s before 787s arrive (if they do), EI are interested in 3 Air Transat 330s.
30 Danny: Is there any credible source for this or it's just another Boeing boys wishful thinking thread? On the other hand it will be really interesting to see
31 Btriple7: That would probably be the cheaper solution. I am assuming EI wouldn't outfit Air Transat's A330s with any updated IFE or different seats. The planes
32 EI321: Nobody said they are all to be delivered in 2008. The thread states that boeing has (apparently) offered EI 11 787s with delivery from 2008, with 777