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Aer Lingus Interested In 787!  
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12407 posts, RR: 37
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9056 times:

With Aer Lingus due to announce a replacement for its A330 fleet, there are increasingly strong signs that it will go for Boeings rather than Airbuses. Although there could be an element of psychology involved (i.e. not letting Airbus think it has EI "in the bag" just because it operates A320/321s already), I have heard numerous rumours about EI and Boeings - 777s and 787s - in recent years; I haven't heard one rumour about A350s. I get the impression that it leaves EI (as well as most other carriers distinctly cold).

The latest rumour surrounds 11 787s, for delivery from 2008 - which would presumably make them -800s, although I'd expect EI to go for -900s in due course. It's also been rumoured that two 777s will be acquired on wet lease. That particular part of the rumour doesn't seem right; certainly, they may - and probably will get 777s as a stopgap, but I can't see the Irish Airline Pilots Association being very keen on wet leases!

However, I think we can expect an EI Boeing deal before the end of the year.

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 41
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8986 times:

Why do they want to replace their A330's already. Aren't they less than 10 years old ?


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineEirjet From Ireland, joined Jul 2005, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8951 times:

As you said it could be psychology at work. I like the start of the thread 'With Aer Lingus due to announce a replacement for its A330 fleet'

It took long enough to work out what the Government planned to do with the airline and ownership, I predict the new fleet announcement by October 2024. haha  Big grin



Aviation has a 100% record, we've never left one up there......
User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8836 times:

I think anything that suggests EI are interested in the 787/777 duo is purely tactical.


arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8808 times:

Maybe they are trying to get a better deal on the A-350? I hardly see them as a Boeing operator, since as far as I was always able to tell they like the A-330 very much.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineLH477 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 584 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8716 times:

Wouldn't switching to 787 reduce their capacity?


Come on you gunners......!!!!!
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8570 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 1):
Why do they want to replace their A330's already. Aren't they less than 10 years old ?

The A330 fleet at EI isn't owned by them, and they have disposed of others when the leases expired.

It was Willie Walsh who drove the agenda with the Airbus/GE preference, so now he's gone it does give pointers to future BA policy as the chief exec does set the agenda somewhat. There is no reason whatsoever why EI should not give the Boeing product serious attention, and a 767-size aircraft might be a better fit for them than an A350. Same as with LOT.


User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3766 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8382 times:

Quoting LH477 (Reply 5):
Wouldn't switching to 787 reduce their capacity?

Yes, quite a big decrease on the 333's!

I think the A350 would be better suited for EI, seeing as they already operate a large Airbus fleet, and a A330-A350 transition wouldnt be too costly! Also I think if EI were to get the 787 then they would also need either the larger 900 model or some 777's!

What are EI's loads on all US flights, JFK, LAX...??

Rob!  Smile


User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6319 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8275 times:

The A350 seems a better aircraft for Aer Lingus, on grounded Ireland they were talking about the both aircraft and which suited Aer Lingus more and the A350 came out best most of the time. The 787-800 is too small compared to the A330-300 but they would need an aircraft that is able to go the long distances for the new routes expected.
I think the US routes are doing well, I just wish they would upgrade business but I cant see that happening until the new fleet arrives, maybe the leather seats like on the short-haul.
Does anyone know when the leases are up on the A330s?


User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6319 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8139 times:

I cant remember the Business class of Aer Lingus long haul and the last time I walked through it was a long time ago.
I was looking on the Aer Lingus website and saw a very small picture on the premier services section and saw the seats were black. Are they really Aer Lingus seats, or just for show?


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8130 times:

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 8):
The A350 seems a better aircraft for Aer Lingus, on grounded Ireland they were talking about the both aircraft and which suited Aer Lingus more and the A350 came out best most of the time.

which does not allow for the fact that they now have stronger competition in their own back yard from the US carriers. Their current or previous traffic levels are by no means guaranteed, nor is yield.


User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7921 times:

Quoting B742 (Reply 7):
What are EI's loads on all US flights, JFK, LAX...??

Well I know they always overbook alot out of JFK so therefore a lot of the flights are full. So when that A330 had to be taken out of service for an accident at DUB, they had tons of problems since they overbook. They will probably need a plane like the 330 or bigger for some flights. I think the A350 looks better for them.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1160 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7888 times:

Like what has been said above, I also believe EI should go for the A350. Aer Lingus is the ideal customer for this aircraft. They already have an A330 fleet (even though they are leased) which shares commonality with the A350. The A350 can also match the capacity of the A330 with added range. The 787, on the other hand, is quite a bit smaller. Unless EI ordered the 777 along with the 787, the 787 would not meet EI's capacity demands.

If Aer Lingus did buy either of these aircrafts, I don't think it would be to replace the A330 fleet, but to help expand there international network.

I would be lining up to buy a ticket if EI ordered either one of these babies.

Like I have said before, just one of those things on EI's "to do" list.

Regards,
Btriple7

[Edited 2005-09-10 00:04:43]


Just...fly.
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7608 times:

The comment was made about the size difference between the A350 and the 787. Is the 787 about the same size as the 767? If so, the A350 wouldn't appear to be a direct competitor nearly so much as a it would be an improvement over an already well proven airplane (A330) and would thus fill the future needs of those airlines already using the A330. And that being the case, the 787 meets the needs of airlines needing 767 replacements. Boeing and Airbus thus would seem to be filling unique niches rather than competing directly as some have suggested.


Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineGearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7494 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 3):
I think anything that suggests EI are interested in the 787/777 duo is purely tactical.

I am inclined to agree although I would like to see them use 777's on a new route to SE Asia or even Australia. As far as transatlantic is concerned EI have the ideal aircraft for their operation in the 330. I think the A350 might be a more suitable replacement for them than the 787. Strange as this might seem, I think a mix of 787/A350 could work for them to replace the A332 and A333. kind of like the happy mix of 777's and A330's a number of airlines operate now. I don't see commonality or brand loyalty being much of a factor. Politics might play a role however it will likely come down to the deal they get from A or B, hence the tactical posturing. I hope they get both.

GU



I have no memory of this place.
User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7238 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
The latest rumour surrounds 11 787s, for delivery from 2008 - which would presumably make them -800s,

If that is correct( I know it's a bit of an if), then EI must be one of the carriers to have reserved delivery positions with refundable deposits. You couldn't get 788s any other way in 2008.
For those of you who say the 787 is too small for EI, well maybe the 333 is too big. The mentioned wet-lease 777s would address the higher density routes and future 789 orders could also address that issue. Additionally,it is well known EI could operate 787s in a 9-abreast format with equivalent seat comfort to 8-abreast 330s. Turns the 788 into pretty much a 290-300 seater.
I also think EI may be looking at ordering more 787s than they have 330s at the moment to increase frequencies to certain destinations and open up new routes.
This sounds very plausible to me and all whispers I have heard concur that EI has always favoured the 787 over any of the many 350 iterations.


User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1160 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7180 times:

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 15):
This sounds very plausible to me and all whispers I have heard concur that EI has always favoured the 787 over any of the many 350 iterations.

I think EI is considering both aircraft very carefully. The 787 has its advantages as well as the A350. EI just has to decide which is better for the airline. Both aircraft have a chance with EI.

Regards,
Btriple7



Just...fly.
User currently offlineFrugalqxnwa From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6690 times:

I'm going to have to disagree with most posts in this thread and say the 787/777 combination would work very well from EI. If the JFK flights are overbooked as mentioned above, they can put a 777 on that route and have a slight increase in capacity. On the thinner transatlantic and any future medium/long-haul work can be done by the 787-8/-9. Either way, EI will probably be ordering the aircraft with an eye to expanding to new markets.

User currently offlineCityjet From Germany, joined Sep 2005, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6490 times:

any restrictions at Dub they have to consider i.e. length of runway, when they consider A versus B for new routes ?

User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6237 times:

Although I believe the A350 is the favorite in this decision. I must say that just because their current flights are almost always full, that does not necessarily mean they need a bigger aircraft.

Perhaps they intend to increase frequencies?
Perhaps despite loads the yield is low on a route, so perhaps downsizing to a smaller more efficient aircraft to increase yields would work out better?

Or perhaps they have seen the merits of a 777/787 fleet. The 787 has 3 types for 3 missions that all have the same cockpit but are designed to be more efficient in 3 separate ways. Essentialy 3 different aircraft in one package.

Then the 777, its economics are well known. And if EI really do need bigger aircraft, perhaps the 777 is it.

Now don't get me wrong folks. I'm not saying any of this is right or that because of either of this, Boeing has the deal in hand.
This is just an attempt to show that you can't always assume one aircraft has a fairer chance than the other based purely on loads or current fleet like many are doing here. The theories have their merits, yes, but don;t take all this into account.



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User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 517 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6228 times:

EI has three A332 and four A333. So, listening to THEM and not our often incorrect peers posting here, a 787 is not too small for their needs. For highly efficient shorter routes with high passenger counts, the 783 would be just about ideal. The problem with planes that are too big is that they are only efficient when they are full and they kill you when they are empty.

Given that there are only about four weeks of summer in Ireland  Smile and their tourist season is a few months, you don't need a A350 lumbering all year on the route. Since there is no "small" A350, the combination of 787s would do the trick quite nicely with maybe a A350 or 777 replacing it for a short time.



The dude abides
User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1160 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6144 times:

Quoting Cityjet (Reply 18):
any restrictions at Dub they have to consider i.e. length of runway, when they consider A versus B for new routes ?

Let us hope that Aer Rianta wpuld have extended the runways (or added a new one!) at DUB by the time EI would recieve their planes.

Btriple7



Just...fly.
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12407 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6136 times:

Just to comment on a few previous posts, I am aware of the possibility that EI might be playing games to try and get a better deal out of Airbus (and acknowledged this possibility in the first post); however, I have my ear to the ground on anything regarding EI and fleet plans and in the past year or so, virtually every rumoured (and these would not be rumours circulated by the company) has involved Boeings. Indeed, before this, it was rumoured that EI was more interested in 777s. However, it is expected that any 787 deal will - as indicated - involve an interim deal for 777s. I'd expect it to be more than just the two mentioned.

I don't think EI is alone in being left cold by the 350; indeed, despite last night's signing of the QR order, the numbers are stacked very much in the 787's favour. I get the impression that airlines are suspicious of Airbus's figures. They're talking about a rehashed A330 which just happens to beat the 787 in every way and I think airlines are asking how a rehash of an existing - albeit very popular design - can beat an all new model; they're also looking at current Airbus models, like the A340-5/600 which are falling short on promised performance. You must remember that for many, if not all, of the airlines ordering 787s, this aircraft represents the future for them; it's not just something that happens in 2008-10, it's an aircraft that must last them for 10+ years, so they're also asking if a rehash of an existing design will cut it, while their competitors go for something all new.

Yes, of course, EI will be (from late next month) an all-Airbus airline, with the retirement of the last 737-500s, ending a 36 year relationship with the 737 in various forms. It's not hard to see why people would expect EI to go for the 350, but commonality doesn't really work if the aircraft itself doesn't fit the bill. Indeed, even that might be unfair; if they got the 350, it might well serve them as well as the 330 did (and it served EI superbly), but EI appears to believe that the 787 would do the job better.

I'm a little surprised by the interest in the -800, but I'd say that they will certainly be an operator of the -900 when it becomes available. It could well be that if EI takes on 777s, these aircraft would continue until the -900 is available, rather than being let go once the -800s comes onstream. The -800 is around the same size as the 332, so it would probably be a replacement for that model, while the 777 would replace the 330-300s, which are a more important target for replacement.

Let's hope something comes out of this; from what I hear, we won't be waiting for too long. I've heard reports of an announcement by the end of next month.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12407 posts, RR: 37
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6124 times:

BTriple7, they should of course lengthen the existing runway, but somehow I doubt it. The DAA (Dublin Airport Authority), which replaced Aer Rianta, has no current plans to lengthen it and the govt is not particularly interested in aviation policy, so it's unlikely to force them.

The new runway is expected to be operational in 2012.

That said, however, the light weight of the 787 (due to use of lighter materials) will contribute to a lower T/O length requirement, so EI should be okay to use the existing runway for its planned new long haul flights. The 777 would probably be restricted to former (current) 333 routes, so it might be okay. However, they're not doing it just for Aer Lingus and the economy would benefit from a longer runway, as this would allow longer nonstop flights, which is of particular importance to airlines in a time of high fuel costs.


User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1160 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6104 times:

I think Kaitak summed it all up really well in the posts above. If EI were to purchase the 787, they would most likely order the 777 along with it. The 787 is also a lot more grounded than the A350. The A350 is only in the premature stages of design. The A350 is probably the better aircraft for EI right now, but Dermot Mannion might have some major plans for EI internationally, involving Boeing.

Of course, it might all be part of EI's game to get the best deal.

Regards,
Btriple7

[Edited 2005-09-10 15:53:47]


Just...fly.
25 RayChuang : I think the reason why EI is seriously looking at the 787-8 and 787-9 is the fact the A350 may offer less commonality with the A330 than what EI wants
26 EIRules : As usual I think Kaitak has summed it up. I think everything being equal (delivery dates especially) then EI would go for the 787. In the mean time th
27 IrishMD11 : Oops, I feel that you're slightly beside the truth! Since I've emigrated some 20 years ago, and with many return trips to my Emerald Isle, I feel tha
28 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ever been to ORD when its -20C? Not fun....
29 EI321 : New roumer that instead of taking interm 777s before 787s arrive (if they do), EI are interested in 3 Air Transat 330s.
30 Danny : Is there any credible source for this or it's just another Boeing boys wishful thinking thread? On the other hand it will be really interesting to see
31 Btriple7 : That would probably be the cheaper solution. I am assuming EI wouldn't outfit Air Transat's A330s with any updated IFE or different seats. The planes
32 Post contains links EI321 : Nobody said they are all to be delivered in 2008. The thread states that boeing has (apparently) offered EI 11 787s with delivery from 2008, with 777
33 Post contains links and images Btriple7 : View Large View MediumPhoto © Philip Preindl - TCAS Air Transat operates Rolls-Royce. This would, of course, pose a problem for EI, because they
34 Post contains images Shamrock350 : I wonder if there is any other airline Aer Lingus can lease a few A330s from, but I would prefer if they just got the 11 787s and 777s instead of anot
35 Post contains images Btriple7 : Never say never!!! For all we know, EI might do just that. They may want a smaller, longer range aircraft (787), and a larger aircraft that is more f
36 Kaitak : Yes, this plot is thickening very interestingly. The thread on PPRUNE was withdrawn, although not because the allegations were false. EI is looking at
37 EI321 : Theres not a chance of them getting both 350 and 787. Whatever happens, EI are definitly going to be getting either 777s or 330s soon (ie within the n
38 EI321 : DUBs runway is 2637 metres long. A new 2nd runway of 3110 metres is sheduled to open in 2012.
39 Post contains links Btriple7 : GEnx
40 Btriple7 : There is nothing wrong with dreaming. Seriously though, the chances of EI going for the 787 and the A350 is very slim.[Edited 2005-09-13 19:19:49][Ed
41 EI321 : Im hoping for 777s and 787s but who knows. EI are sure to condider 10 abreast if they were to get T7s. Would fit well into their low cost model.[Edite
42 Post contains images Btriple7 : I hope that's a joke. I would never fly EI if they configured their 777s like that!
43 Post contains links EI321 : Doesent sound too inviting does it? http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...r=11&prev_id=130147&next_id=130142 http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...r
44 Post contains images Shamrock350 : Aer Lingus would be on my list of airlines to fly with 10 abreast! It would look like a sea of blue and green and lots of PVTs with "welcome" but not
45 Post contains images Shamrock330 : I hope Mannion is listening...on my knees i am begging you not to go 10 abreast.(That is IF EI choose 777's) =
46 Shamrock350 : I don't think he will have 10 abreast if they get the 777. I want to know if they are going to get a new livery but not a crappy low-cost/website all
47 Kaitak : Mr. Mannion has spoken of his plans to add new EI routes; an announcement is expected within the next month and the airline is expected to announce it
48 Kaitak : While going through the news section, I found the following comments, in an interview DM gave to Reuters: The carrier was also talking to Boeing (BA.N
49 Btriple7 : I had heard rumors that EI was going to drop the LAX route and move to SFO, but since EI will acquiring new aircraft, will SFO be the new first intern
50 Shamrock350 : Will the Air Transat A330-200s be in full Aer Lingus colours? HKG and CPT will be good. EI and EK codeshare will be good for both airlines now that Gu
51 Post contains images Thebigjd : Kaitak I love reading your posts, always brief, informative and to the point Having just flown back from Orlando on Sunday morning with Aer Lingus (EI
52 EI321 : If the roumers turn out to be true, I presume thay will. Do you mean that they would swap LAX for SFO or that they would operate both routes? They ca
53 Btriple7 : Is there really a demand for DUB-CPT?
54 Kaitak : CPT was actually the first of the long haul cities (outside the US) to be considered; there are a lot of Irish in SA (and vice versa). CPT is supposed
55 EI321 : Yep theres quite big demand fro it. Gulfair starts scheduled Dublin to Bahrain flights on Dec 2nd and the same 332 will fly onwards to JNB afterwards
56 Btriple7 : Does EI have any plans to change their livery when they aquire their new planes? Personally, I am quite fond of the current colors. I think the shades
57 Post contains links EI321 : A colour scheme change would only come with a full rebrand IMO. Its always possible that EI will want to start something fresh if it is to enter bran
58 EI321 : More news to report. Dermot Mannion confirmed yesterday that the airline will introduce a number of new outs next month. The bulk will be to contintal
59 Toulouse : Thanks for that EI321. Good to hear new routes about to be announced. Hopfully they'll bring back Toulouse (I still just can't understand why they've
60 Shamrock350 : Good to hear that new routes about to be announced. I agree on the Toulouse issue I don't get why its gone in the winter! What new routes could be in
61 Shamrock330 : Oslo , stockholm , helsinki ...Moscow maybe?? I think that Aer Lingus have given up on Shannon with regards to short haul.With the close proximity of
62 Btriple7 : If EI didn't wasn't bound by the Shannon stop-over rule, I think they would drop SNN altogether.
63 EIRules : Yeah I agree that SVO would be a good route for EI to open, perhaps some other eastern European route too (perhaps Bucharest?). As for long haul, I've
64 Kaitak : It all depends on when the route is going to be launched; they may well announce it next month, but I think that announcing a new long haul route for
65 EI321 : I concur. HKG is by far the best of those 3. The other 2 are prob just out of range. Maybe another chinese city would be sensible too with the big po
66 EIRules : Yeah I reckon Istanbul could be a runner, always thought that Athens would be a good choice but now that Malev operate that route it looks unlikely, p
67 Btriple7 : Any reason for why EI would go to Cairo?
68 EIRules : Tourist traffic. BA manage 2x777 daily and some of that has to be tourist. There are already charters from DUB so why not a scheduled service
69 Btriple7 : My question is: Why does EI stop in SNN on both the out-bound and in-bound leg? Aren't they only required to stop in SNN on one leg. Wouldn't it save
70 Cityjet : The reason for the SNN stopover - is purely political - if the gov drop the stop over, they will not win the next election. Hence, keep things as it i
71 Kaitak : Unless the EU/US get to a final deal before then, which they are expected to. This will supersede the current arrangement and there is nothing the Iri
72 Btriple7 : Once again, Kaitak sums it up perfectly.
73 EI321 : Some flights go direct and some are forced to go via SNN. From (DUB) to (JFK): Flight No Depart Arrive Days of Service EI0105 1030 1300 - - - - - - S
74 UAcosCS : Could you imagine a EI 777? Would be cool to see the shamrock on a B777.
75 Kaitak : I could certainly see the 777 as an interim possibility. One of the airline's current problems is that its A330-300s are short-legged (being -301 mode
76 SunriseValley : Why would Air Transat part with their A330's? This is a significant amount of lift to take out of their fleet.
77 Post contains images Shamrock350 : I was also thinking the same thing about Air transat A330's and I have no idea why they would part with them. Can someone please explain the differenc
78 Kaitak : That's just what I've heard; I'm not quite sure if Air Transat knows about this yet! As for the difference between the A330-300 and -300X, it's just a
79 Shamrock350 : Thanks for the info Kaitak! The 787 does seem more likely with the 777, but with all these orders for the 787 how long will it be until it would be in
80 Kaitak : Boeing is trying to increase production for the 787 from 2008-9; I don't think all of EI's order will be -800s; indeed, if you go to the very top of t
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