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Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?  
User currently offlineN593HA From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 152 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9390 times:

Hey,

I live in Germany and have flown a couple of times already from my hometown to Hawaii. Although I love flying it's always a very long journey. Although there many connections where you depart in Europe and arrive the same still at HNL, I prefer to split the trip and at least for this the most comfortable way to do it:
Day 1: CGN-KL1804-AMS-KL605-SFO
Day 2: SFO-HA11-HNL

There is no way, even not cheaper fares to get me flying via LHR and/or LAX. I just hate those two airports.

So now here my question:
Would there be enough demand for a daily Europe to HNL non-stop service?
Off course range is big issue on that route, which means from what I know only A345, 772LR and one the up-coming 787 versions would be suitable to fly non-stop across the 1,5 oceans!
To increase demand, any airline would need to code-share with a European airline to fill that flight. So may it would easier for a European airline to start those flights!

The only thing that I'm absolutely certain about is that the HNL spotters would love to see a European airline on regular basis at their hometown airport!

Now you may write down your thoughts about this topic

Regards from Germany
N593HA


Next trip: KL+NW to HNL
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3746 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9355 times:

Probably not enough high yield passengers to justify placing an aircraft on this route.

User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5680 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9357 times:

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
Would there be enough demand for a daily Europe to HNL non-stop service?

I doubt it since it would most likely mean same two-class arrangement SQ has for its SIN-EWR/LAX service. Besides, Hawaii is moreless holiday destination (am I right?), therefore I'm not sure you'd find enough people willing to pay full-fare business/first class for a daily service.
It also means no more than ONE destination in Europe, which means connecting anyway. Let's say AMS-LAX-HNL, FRA-SFO-HNL, LHR-LAX-HNL, VIE-SFO-HNL still seems like more bearable - at least psychologically - than connecting within Europe to a hub and then this 14, 15, 16? hours of non-stop ordeal accross half of the globe.
I've done this trip only once, HNL-LAX-FRA-PRG on UA/LH with an overnight stay in LAX and it was bad enough - especially the eastbound part.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9256 times:

I agree that the eastbound flight is annoying, but the westbound is ok - the fastest connection is probably taking UA and flying FRA-SFO-HNL (and, yes, there are some quite good fares for that route).

As for nonstops - putting expensive longhaul equipment on relatively low yield routes isn't really a good choice for airlines so, no, I do not expect to see any European airlines operating nonstops to Hawai'i anytime soon... for that much, I also don't expect to see any US carrier operating Hawai'i to Europe nonstops either.

Last time I flew the route, I flew HAJ-LHR-IAD-DEN, stayed the night there, continued DEN-SFO-LAX-LIH (well, I like flying, and I got lots of miles for that routing), while on the way back, I took the LIH-SFO afternoon flight that got me into SFO around midnight, stayed at a hotel and continued on LH's nonstop to FRA, from where I connected on to HAJ. There's the option of taking a redeye (departing just before midnight) and arriving at SFO or LAX in the morning, but the flight's just too darn short for a night flight (at least for me), so I'd never take that option.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9260 times:

I have been thinking about this same question.

According to Great Circle Mapper the distance is not so impossible - check these out:

FRA-HNL 11990 km
LHR-HNL 11647 km
AMS-HNL 11677 km

For example SYD-LAX is 12051 km and has been flown nonstop for years.

The ultra long SIN-EWR is 15345 km.

But the shortest way also to HNL is from Northern Europe. We have good connections from allover Europe to HEL and HEL-HNL is "only" 10952 km. But we do not have the equipment - almost 11000 km is too much for MD11s, isn't it?

How are the winds on this kind of route?

Regards,
LordHowe



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
User currently offlineSoups From Ghana, joined Jun 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9220 times:

United Airlines is the only airline (i think) offer direct service from Europe to HNL (Via LAX)


Depart
London, London Heathrow Apt

Depart time
10:55am Saturday Sep 10, 2005

Terminal
Terminal 3

Arrive
Honolulu, Honolulu International Apt

Arrive time
9:37pm Saturday Sep 10, 2005

Terminal
Main Terminal

Total time
21 Hrs, 42 Mins

Aircraft Stops
Stop 1: Los Angeles

First Class
Lunch , Snack or Brunch

Business Class
Lunch , Snack or Brunch

Economy Class
Lunch , Snack or Brunch

Day of Operation
MoTuWeThFrSaSu *Valid Sep 9 2005 until Oct 29 2005

Aircraft
Boeing 777 Passenger



Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9209 times:

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
Off course range is big issue on that route, which means from what I know only A345, 772LR and one the up-coming 787 versions would be suitable to fly non-stop across the 1,5 oceans!

from LHR/CDG, the 777-200ER can easily do the trick...but the yields would be crappy, so thats why its easier to send a one world/star alliance parter via SFO/LAX



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFlyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9194 times:

Didn't BA fly to HNL at one point? I can't remember.

User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9187 times:

Not too much demand. The Mediterranean resorts and the Caribbean are all closer, cheaper, and readily accessible.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9170 times:

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 8):
Not too much demand. The Mediterranean resorts and the Caribbean are all closer, cheaper, and readily accessible.

After being in TFS and HNL, TFS is very very nice and much cheaper.

There is really no reason to go to HNL from Europe unless you just want to say "I have been there".


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9150 times:

Actually the type of traveller who holidays in Hawaii is quite, quite different to the type of person holidaying in tenerife.

many of those who visit Hawaii can afford high fares and C class. Most of those flying tenerife want a cheapo week in the sun with lots of lager!


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9123 times:

Western Airlines operated a direct service at one time from LGW to HNL. A refueling stop en route (Anchorage I think) was necessary. Unfortunately they operated the route with the DC10-10 and consequently there were restrictions on the load. The service was stopped after just one season. Perhaps it they used the DC10-30, without the load restrictions, it might have been more successful.


MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineCoa764 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 328 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9103 times:

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
Off course range is big issue on that route

The 777-200 can do it so range is not an issue but keep in mind that various other enroute variables could reduce the total payload. Now you just have to find enought people willing to fly)

FRA /HNL JRF B777-200 M84
---------------------------------------------------------------------
BURN -- 216700 -- 13.42
ALTN JRF -- 004500 -- 00.17
ETOPS ADD -- 012700 -- 00.49
RSV 05PCT -- 008900 -- 00.41
RSV 30MIN -- 006300 -- 00.30
HOLD -- 000000 -- 00.00
MIN FUEL -- 249100 -- 15.59
TAXI -- 000700 -- 00.14
EXTRA -- 000000 -- 00.00
GATE FUEL -- 249800 -- 16.13
PYLD -- 075100
TOW -- 648000
ZFW -- 398900
FOB -- 249800
LGW -- 431300
FOD -- 032400
FOA -- 027900

DIST 6593
FRA.WRB6E.WRB.UZ710.VES.UP992.ZOL.UZ10.FLO.UP621.EDURA..68N000E..
70N003W..75N009W..80N026W..82N040W..LT.ACAQ.TAYTA..BTI.J120.FAI.
J115.ENA..HOM..MARLO..55N150W..50N149W..45N150W..40N151W..35N153W..
30N155W..ZURIC..APACK.MAGGI3.HNL FRA/0280/LINVI/0300/FLS/0310/FLO/0300/68N000E/0320/82N040W/0340/TAPS
A/0350/FYU/0360/FAI/0370/ANC/0360/ENA/0370/40N151W/0380/30N155W/0390/ZURIC/0380/
EARLIEST/LATEST ARRIVAL TIME FOR THE ETOPS ALTERNATE AIRPORTS
ENGM SUITABLE 2310Z/0152Z
BIKF SUITABLE 2349Z/0515Z
CYFB SUITABLE 0307Z/0558Z
CYZF SUITABLE 0345Z/0606Z
PAFA SUITABLE 0358Z/0801Z
PACD SUITABLE 0600Z/1143Z
PHNL SUITABLE 0932Z/1135Z



Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9071 times:

I flew FRA-ORD-HNL on UA/LH a few years ago. It was an enjoyable trip, and I recommend taking it.

User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9070 times:

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 12):
Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
FRA /HNL JRF B777-200 M84
---------------------------------------------------------------------
BURN -- 216700 -- 13.42
ALTN JRF -- 004500 -- 00.17
ETOPS ADD -- 012700 -- 00.49
RSV 05PCT -- 008900 -- 00.41
RSV 30MIN -- 006300 -- 00.30
HOLD -- 000000 -- 00.00
MIN FUEL -- 249100 -- 15.59
TAXI -- 000700 -- 00.14
EXTRA -- 000000 -- 00.00
GATE FUEL -- 249800 -- 16.13
PYLD -- 075100
TOW -- 648000
ZFW -- 398900
FOB -- 249800
LGW -- 431300
FOD -- 032400
FOA -- 027900

DIST 6593
FRA.WRB6E.WRB.UZ710.VES.UP992.ZOL.UZ10.FLO.UP621.EDURA..68N000E..
70N003W..75N009W..80N026W..82N040W..LT.ACAQ.TAYTA..BTI.J120.FAI.
J115.ENA..HOM..MARLO..55N150W..50N149W..45N150W..40N151W..35N153W..
30N155W..ZURIC..APACK.MAGGI3.HNL FRA/0280/LINVI/0300/FLS/0310/FLO/0300/68N000E/0320/82N040W/0340/TAPS
A/0350/FYU/0360/FAI/0370/ANC/0360/ENA/0370/40N151W/0380/30N155W/0390/ZURIC/0380/
EARLIEST/LATEST ARRIVAL TIME FOR THE ETOPS ALTERNATE AIRPORTS
ENGM SUITABLE 2310Z/0152Z
BIKF SUITABLE 2349Z/0515Z
CYFB SUITABLE 0307Z/0558Z
CYZF SUITABLE 0345Z/0606Z
PAFA SUITABLE 0358Z/0801Z
PACD SUITABLE 0600Z/1143Z
PHNL SUITABLE 0932Z/1135Z

Sorry, but what does this all mean - translation, please!

Regards,
LordHowe



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3524 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9054 times:

yeah, Hawaii is predominantly an American Tourism destination, as Europe has many places that are closer and equally tropical.


Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9036 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 10):
many of those who visit Hawaii can afford high fares and C class. Most of those flying tenerife want a cheapo week in the sun with lots of lager!

Trust me , you can have a high-end Holiday in TFS if you want.


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9018 times:

I dont doubt it, there are several very good 5 star hotels, particularly in the Northern resort of Puerto De La Cruz and the island is served by scheduled flights. However, Tenerife is largely a 'cheap and cheerful' year round destination for the British.

TFS is particular is served by hundreds of charter flights and is home to British pubs, bars, grotty apartment blocks and I think it fair to say that TFS does attract a fair amount of lower end holidaymakers. Im talking Aspro and Thomson square deal holidays in 2 star apartment blocks on charter flights leaving in the middle of the night.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9008 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 16):
Trust me , you can have a high-end Holiday in TFS if you want.

TFS isn't really in competition with Hawai'i - but Mauritius, the Maledives and the Comores are...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineGreenjet From Ireland, joined Aug 2001, 952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9007 times:

MyTravel are looking at operating to HNL via YYC.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 10):
many of those who visit Hawaii can afford high fares and C class.

But not enough for a direct flight from Europe.


User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8964 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
Tenerife is largely a 'cheap and cheerful' year round destination for the British.

I was just in HNL and I can tell you there were many "cheap and cheerful" people there for Holiday.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 18):
TFS isn't really in competition with Hawai'i - but Mauritius, the Maledives and the Comores are...

Thank you, I lived in London and Amsterdam and I know those places well, they are very far flights as well, TFS is the closest "decent" "tropical" location from Western Europe (Although Palma , Funchal, and Ibiza are closer, the weather isn't as tropical).

Greece, Cyprus and Turkey are nice places to go as well.


User currently offlineSpeedmarque From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8949 times:

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 7):
Didn't BA fly to HNL at one point? I can't remember.

Just flew with a Purser who was reminiscing about the "good old days" when he flew LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-PPT-NAD-SYD with BA!!!!!!

WHAT A TRIP!!!!


User currently offlineMoose1226 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 250 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8946 times:

Coa764:

Where do you get that info from?

Thanks


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8924 times:

Its funny how often this issue comes up here at a.net - a Europe to Hawaii nonstop flight. While the flight would look good on a route map, there is not enough demand for such a flight and the yeilds are all wrong. As pointed out above, Hawaii is a long way for a European to go for a beach holiday - and aside from European beach destinations, places such as Thailand, Mauritius and the Maldives are closer to Europe than Hawaii; maybe at some point, a charter carrier out of Germany or the UK may try a once per week service to Honolulu, but its unlikely that scheduled service will ever be introduced in the forseeable future.

Consider that East Coast US to Hawaii service is also very limited - CO flies nonstop between EWR and HNL (and the power of CO's EWR hub helps that flight)......there is no nonstop connection between cities like BOS, WAS, PHL and MIA and Hawaii for the same reasons - Hawaii is far and thus expensive for a beach holiday for residents of those cities and there are many closer and less expensive alternatives in the Caribbean and Mexico.

As mentioned, long ago, Western tried a LGW-ANC-HNL service with a DC10-10, the flight operated a couple of times per week back in the 1970s and while the loads were good between HNL and ANC, the airplane was generally very empty going on to London.


User currently offlineCahiwa From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8821 times:

 cool  I was always amazed when I lived on Maui how many Germans wind surfed on Maui's east side. Amazed because I assumed there are far closer destinations for Europeans to windsurf that are just as good. Generally, when asked about this, they claim nothing comes close to the conditions on the Valley Isle. Ciao, K

25 Airbazar : If I'm not mistaken, Hawaii is predominantely a Japanese tourist destination. I'll second that. My wife and I had a wonderful 10 day vacation in Maui
26 B6sea : More or less American and Japanese, but I always hear of many europeans going to Hawaii on vacation, obviously not as many when compared to the Japan
27 Vlada : I don't know about British Airways, but I'm pretty sure Sabena had a direct BRU-HNL service, way back in seventies, operated by B747 classics. Back t
28 Searpqx : We actually get a fair amount of Europeans on the islands, but as has been mentioned at most enough for maybe one flight from the whole continent. So
29 Post contains images Carduelis : Flyboyaz and Speedmarque:- Yes, I remember it well, when I was BOAC Cabin Crew. BOAC had Around the World Services on 707s in the early-mid 60s. There
30 ChiGB1973 : I did HNL-IND then IND-SNN. I spent the night in Indy and continued the next day. It was an ATA military charter. Of course, working those flights is
31 Dutchjet : This is news to me - Sabena served Honolulu? When? Some Europeans to include Hawaii as part of larger trip to the US (the California- Hawaii - Las Ve
32 N1120A : A 744 or 772ER could do the route You are Take a look at LAS and the success it has been for BD and VS. LAS is a very low yield, high load destinatio
33 DarthRandall : I shudder to think of spending all that time on a DC-10! That does make me think, though, that it might be a good idea to make a stop in Anchorage on
34 Ha763 : The last European airline to fly to Hawaii, HNL, was Lufthansa and it was a non-stop flight. I believe that this was the first time there was a non-st
35 MarshalN : How does HNL compare to Tahiti? IIRC there are direct flights from Europe to Tahiti, and I'd think Hawaii is a bigger tourist destination even for Eur
36 3201 : What, if any, winds did you use for this? From what I've seen, the wind-optimal route will normally fly on the other side of the pole, at say 80 or s
37 Ha763 : The thing with Tahiti is that the airlines that fly the route, Air France and Air Tahiti Nui, have traffic rights not only to carry pax between PPT a
38 Post contains images Viscount630 : Nope! Next question please. There are plenty of nicer, more interesting, sunnier destinations within easier reach of europe for leisure traffic - and
39 Dutchjet : The only direct flights are from PPT to Paris, due to historical connections and the fact Tahiti änd her islands remains "part of Greater France" -
40 Post contains images Airtrainer : I don't think there would be enough demand, if you go to a travel agency you will see a ton of offers for southern Europe, North Africa or the Carribe
41 B777ER : A good routing from Europe to HNL I would think would be via Delta. Pick a city in Europe DL serves and go to ATL and then they have 2 non-stops to HN
42 3201 : The problem is ATL is so far off the best path, the flight time is a lot higher. For example, FRA-HNL: Through Vancouver you can get there as fast as
43 Coa764 : The winds were from the Bracknell grid. flying east out of FRA actually produced a longer flight time and less payload vs. the westbound routing. The
44 Tsnamm : CO had a 1 stop same plane from HNL to LGW back in the 80's flt 34/35 ran HNL/DEN/LGW and back...now you can go via EWR or IAH...connect from Europe a
45 Post contains images Airbazar : I'm not sure which Hawaii have you visited but I've been to a lot of places around the World and few are as nice as Hawaii. Ok, Ohau is not the nices
46 Xkorpyoh : What about Air New Zealand doing AKL-HNL-LHR with their future 777LR? .. that would leave them more seats to sell on their 777 AKL-LAX. about hawaii:
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