Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon  
User currently offlineBeefer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 390 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3077 times:

Striking Northwest Airlines mechanics said today they expect to make a deal with the airline, although striking workers probably won't like it. It's the first time the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association has said it expects a deal, and that its members would probably get to vote on it.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5607499.html

"We all know that at some point an agreement must be reached. We also know that any tentative agreement is going to be extreme by any measure,'' said Steve MacFarlane, the union's Assistant National Director, in a hot line message Saturday.

..................

It doesn't sound like any new proposals have been made since Northwest's recent offer of only keeping 1,080 mechanics' jobs and eliminating the aircraft cleaner and custodian positions represented by the union. That represents about 3,350 layoffs, up from the 2,000 Northwest sought before the strike.

Is it possible that the only thing at this point that NWA and the Union are trying to work out is a decent severance package for the Mechanics who will be laid off due to this deal?

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFRA2DTW From Germany, joined Feb 2004, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3041 times:

My gut feeling is that they will agree to outsourcing all the cleaner and custodian jobs, and protect as many mechanics and their income as they can. Otherwise, AMFA is dead as a mechanics union. On the other hand, I think they still hold a few cards. If passengers are booking away from NW out of safety concerns, the bottom line is beginning to hurt. Also, housing the replacement workers in hotels and transporting them to/from work is not cheap, plus there will be increasing turnover by the replacements as they find other, more secure jobs with other companies. The NW employment offer is nothing to get excited about - they can do equally well elsewhere without being labelled "scabs".

User currently offlineFRA2DTW From Germany, joined Feb 2004, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

Make no mistake about it - the future of both the airline and AMFA is at stake here. Both could lose BIG!

User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
If passengers are booking away from NW out of safety concerns, the bottom line is beginning to hurt.

But that is just not been the case nor does it appear that if the replacement workers become permanent would manifest into such a case, either.

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
Also, housing the replacement workers in hotels and transporting them to/from work is not cheap, plus there will be increasing turnover by the replacements as they find other, more secure jobs with other companies.

You are forgetting that if AMFA doesn't accept this deal by Tuesday than NW begins to offer permanent positions to the replacement workers which would then mean no more hotels.

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 2):
Make no mistake about it - the future of both the airline and AMFA is at stake here. Both could lose BIG!

I would buy that AMFA's future is at stake here but even if they accept the offer it will be a serious blow to their rep because they could have had a significantly better agreement just weeks earlier.

As for NW here I think they can go on with their new business model as planned with either group of workers so their future isn't nescessarily dependant upon AMFA in this situation. No doubt it would probably be better for both parties if AMFA agreed to come back even at the less valuable offer of just the other day, but I think NW can get by either way.


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 2):
the future of both the airline and AMFA is at stake here. Both could lose BIG!

Unfortunately AMFA has already lost big. Not only has their strike had no noticeable long term effect on the airline, but now they've pretty much admitted that they'll end up settling, and for a contract that is half again as bad as the one they struck over. I'm no fan of how NWA management has gone about breaking this union, but in this case NWA is the clear winner.

Does not bode well for the rest of the unions.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineZone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2975 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 4):
Unfortunately AMFA has already lost big.

If I was a NWA mechanic, I would be pretty angry at the union right now. I pay all those union dues for what? So I can make no money during a strike and get my pay cut (which would happen if the union never existed in the first place.)



/// U N I T E D
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3122 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2932 times:

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
My gut feeling is that they will agree to outsourcing all the cleaner and custodian jobs, and protect as many mechanics and their income as they can.

I concur with FRA2DTW's statement above. I am a union member in another field. We have experienced many givebacks in recent years. Our LEVERAGE is not what is used to be and our representatives we know are doing the best they can given the "risks" companies in all fields are WILLING TO TAKE to cut.

Karl


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2911 times:

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 5):
If I was a NWA mechanic, I would be pretty angry at the union right now. I pay all those union dues for what? So I can make no money during a strike and get my pay cut (which would happen if the union never existed in the first place.)

That, and at the rest of the membership for being "taken in" by a bunch of windbags at AMFA back in '98. AMFA has no support amongst other unions, not an AFL-CIO member, and for that reason, I think the other unions are quietly very happy to see AMFA taking it in the shorts on this one.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 4):
Does not bode well for the rest of the unions.

Possibly, but if the IAM were to strike, it's very likely that the pilots and F/A's would support them, whereas they didn't with AMFA. NWA mgmt. knows this, and will probably (hopefully) negotiate in better faith with them.

That said, if NW does file Ch. 11 as expected, it will be a very rough ride for everyone involved.


User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
My gut feeling is that they will agree to outsourcing all the cleaner and custodian jobs, and protect as many mechanics and their income as they can. Otherwise, AMFA is dead as a mechanics union

I think you are totally correct.


User currently offlineVegas005 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

These union retards should have read the Eastern Airlines story. They destroyed Eastern (yes..I know bad management too) and partied in the street shouting "we won, we won" when Eastern went bankrupt. These union idiots lost their high paying Eastern jobs and soon took jobs with AA for 2/3 to 1/2 the pay and benefits they made at Eastern. 14 years later and we have the same story...

User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
If passengers are booking away from NW out of safety concerns, the bottom line is beginning to hurt.

Let's look here
http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2005/pr090720051622.html

Between August 2004 and 2005, RPM up by 0.7%; ASM down by 1%; LF up by 1.5%. That does not suggest that people are boking away, pleople are still willing to fly NWA.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14060 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
That, and at the rest of the membership for being "taken in" by a bunch of windbags at AMFA back in '98. AMFA has no support amongst other unions, not an AFL-CIO member, and for that reason, I think the other unions are quietly very happy to see AMFA taking it in the shorts on this one.

I understand that AMFa was founded by mechanics who were not happy with the representation by the big indudtrial unions. Also, as far as I understand, AMFA is a union which has no mob involvment, unlike e.g. the Teamsters.

Jan


User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
I understand that AMFa was founded by mechanics who were not happy with the representation by the big indudtrial unions. Also, as far as I understand, AMFA is a union which has no mob involvment, unlike e.g. the Teamsters.

All true Jan. Hence AMFAs' decision to stay away from the AFL-CIO, the source of most mob involvment in unions.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
Possibly, but if the IAM were to strike, it's very likely that the pilots and F/A's would support them, whereas they didn't with AMFA. NWA mgmt. knows this, and will probably (hopefully) negotiate in better faith with them.

Why would the pilots support the IAM? When the NWA pilots went on strike in 1998 the IAM stayed on the job.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Quoting Vegas005 (Reply 9):
These union retards should have read the Eastern Airlines story. They destroyed Eastern (yes..I know bad management too) and partied in the street shouting "we won, we won" when Eastern went bankrupt. These union idiots lost their high paying Eastern jobs and soon took jobs with AA for 2/3 to 1/2 the pay and benefits they made at Eastern. 14 years later and we have the same story...

Read the book Hard Landing. You make the remark they took jobs at AA for 2/3-1/2 pay at AA. Did they all take jobs at AA or are you just making a blanket statement?


User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2814 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 13):
Why would the pilots support the IAM? When the NWA pilots went on strike in 1998 the IAM stayed on the job

The theory is that both ALPA and IAM are AFL-CIO and therefore ALPA would support an IAM strike whereas AMFA which isn't affiliated with the AFL-CIO received no such support because of it. It's just a theory. I subscribe to your interpretation of the unions ability(inability) to stick together at NWA especially with the current state of the company and managements desire to make the employees pay for their (managements) blunders and short-sightedness.

Dl757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2796 times:

What would NW do if they didn't get the concessions from the Unions? Okay than what good will that be than when they would file Ch. 11 and everyone would lose a lot more?

If I'm AMFA I'm not sure I can see a good alternative here - upper management is only so big and they could all work for free and the airline still would have the problems that they do with high labor costs and high fuel prices.


User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2773 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
upper management is only so big and they could all work for free and the airline still would have the problems that they do with high labor costs and high fuel prices.

Nobody is asking management at NWA to work for free. We're saying pull your head out and figure out a way to make the business work. Others (AA,WN,B6,FL) are doing it without completely taking it out on their employees why can't NWA? Again it's not managements own salaries it's their incompetence in running the business that has squandered Billions.

Dl757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineFlyBoeing From United States of America, joined May 2000, 866 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Northwest is so low on cash right now that no deal would save them now. Whatever the mechanics - in isolation - agree to is insufficient to make the difference between bankruptcy and solvency. They're losing $6 million a day (according to my calculations) and the last time they warned their cash was just about at bankruptcy level.

We knew at the offset that $176 million wasn't enough to save them before jet fuel got expensive. They burn 1.6 billion gallons of jet-fuel a year, so the mechanics' deal is worth a little over 10 cents a gallon.

That said - what the pilots and FAs do in concert with the mechs *will* save the company from bankruptcy.

From this we can deduce that Northwest meant this as a "show of force" for the pilots and flight attendants. However, I honestly think they've overplayed their hand by bargaining in such bad faith. The flight attendants and pilots may think similarly to the mechanics - that they'd get a better deal in bankruptcy court than Northwest is willing to offer.


User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2602 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

FlyBoeing

I've thought along the same lines. Managements timing however got whacked by even faster price increases for fuel and the changes effective Oct 17. Neither was as factor when this plan was initiated. After saying they wanted concession packages for so long they disinterested in negotiations by how very few dates were allocated for them. Some delays were due to conflicts with NMB mediators but overall they really seemed to fritter away too much time. Not to mention the 80s style asset equity elimination management of the Checchi era to blame for depletion of corporate worth. All this very loose talk of Mafia thieves, what about corporate ones?



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 18):
We knew at the offset that $176 million wasn't enough to save them before jet fuel got expensive. They burn 1.6 billion gallons of jet-fuel a year, so the mechanics' deal is worth a little over 10 cents a gallon

But not even that...remember NW had to spend $107 million over 18 months training replacements, and these replacements are earning just under the AMFA guys, so there's very little cost savings here at all.

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 18):
That said - what the pilots and FAs do in concert with the mechs *will* save the company from bankruptcy.

Not at this late stage of the game. I truly believe that NW wants Ch. 11 for the sole purpose of extracting even MORE from all groups.

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 18):
The flight attendants and pilots may think similarly to the mechanics - that they'd get a better deal in bankruptcy court than Northwest is willing to offer.

The way NW has been negotiating, they might get a "better" deal in court, and it might be better to have a court being the referee, but everyone loses in Ch. 11. Period.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
I understand that AMFa was founded by mechanics who were not happy with the representation by the big industrial unions. Also, as far as I understand, AMFA is a union which has no mob involvment, unlike e.g. the Teamsters.

The IAM has no mob involvement, either.


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

"and these replacements are earning just under the AMFA guys, so there's very little cost savings here at all. "


Not true. The replacements are earning less than what was the final offer on the table to AMFA mechanics (before the strike) according to an article in the StarTribune. I'd post the link but it is now is archived.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 20):
and these replacements are earning just under the AMFA guys, so there's very little cost savings here at all.

Actually they are earning on an hourly route just less than what AMFA mechs where making before they walked off the job. They are making $32/hr+paid hotel+free tools. The AMFA mechs where making about $35/hr before they walked. The last company proposal on the table before the strike was for $27.28/hr. Granted the replacements are not getting benefits but I don't know what the benefits offered in the company's last offer where valued at.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 21):
Not true. The replacements are earning less than what was the final offer on the table to AMFA mechanics (before the strike) according to an article in the StarTribune. I'd post the link but it is now is archived.

See above.

Dl757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

I wonder how the AMFA is going to present this to the rank and file membership? Doesn't the rank and file vote on weather to accept the offer from NW, or not?

If your union made a deal with your employer, to lay off about 75% of your union members, how many members would vote to accept that?  flamed 

Looks like another union painted themselves into that loose-loose corner.  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 22):
Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 20):
and these replacements are earning just under the AMFA guys, so there's very little cost savings here at all.

Actually they are earning on an hourly route just less than what AMFA mechs where making before they walked off the job. They are making $32/hr+paid hotel+free tools. The AMFA mechs where making about $35/hr before they walked.

You repeated what I said above, the only difference is that you included actual wage rates.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
I wonder how the AMFA is going to present this to the rank and file membership? Doesn't the rank and file vote on weather to accept the offer from NW, or not?

Present what? There's no agreement right now for them to vote on. If some of the strikers like this new NW offer, they only way they can accept it is to cross the picket line. And I don't see that happening.


25 Dl757md : Right. I just wanted to show that NWA is paying their replacements more than they are willing to pay their original workers. Dl757Md
26 AirRyan : And if that is the case than the mechs can take solice in knowing that they were not wanted because of their high salaries but they simply were just
27 Dl757md : They absolutely don't. But what do all of you bottom liners out there that keep claiming that this is a business decision on the part of NWA think ab
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Amusing Qantas Talks Between Pilots And Mechanics posted Tue Nov 8 2005 01:30:27 by Aeroflot777
Direct Flights Between Mexico And China Soon? posted Thu Oct 27 2005 00:01:26 by Mike1974
Deal Approved Between USairways And Air Wisconson posted Tue Mar 1 2005 03:38:05 by ERJ145LR
Open Skies Between India And Singapore Soon. posted Thu Apr 10 2003 02:58:57 by United777
NWA And Mechanics posted Wed Dec 6 2000 02:43:17 by Nwa747-400
Flights Between BOS And BRU (and MAD) Expected. posted Sat Oct 28 2006 17:24:44 by Manni
NWA Flights From Detroit Between 6.30 And 7.30 posted Tue May 20 2003 01:36:17 by Rajivvyas
Crazy Low Fares Between India And The UK posted Fri Nov 10 2006 11:06:10 by TheDiplomat
SQ Service Between MXP And BCN posted Mon Nov 6 2006 23:57:27 by RetroLivery
Battle Brewing Between Ethiopian And Kenya Airways posted Sun Oct 29 2006 19:57:47 by ETStar