TG990 From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4661 times:
I think it's about time BA started service into AKL. At the moment if you're flying BA from LHR to New Zealand you have to fly into BKK then into SYD and then to AKL on QF.
I saw a recent study that reported that the British find New Zealand the top travel destination (or something like that). Also we are a commonwealth country with people who have big links with people in the UK and a large amount of people who choose to work/live their. So PVG would be a good opportunity to open a new route for this purpose.
Considering there's a large Chinese population living, studying and visiting here I really don't understand why there hasn't been a flight from mainland China to New Zealand for years already!
I'd love to see NZ fly their new 777's on this route.
HKGKaiTak From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4648 times:
Quoting TG990 (Reply 1): I'd love to see NZ fly their new 777's on this route.
Ditto. But is there good enough yield on this route if it terminates at PVG? I have no idea what the business traffic is between NZ and China but I'm guessing it would not be nearly as good as that between Oz and China. Students and VFR traffic only travels in certain times of the year and these are generally low-yielding. (What do the Chinese students in NZ fly to return home?)
One problem too is that Oz and NZ are bundled together as a tourist destination in the view of Asians in general. If they visit NZ they would almost certainly visit Oz as well. They might fly into NZ but out from Oz or vice versa, which means they don't need a direct China-NZ service. And again leisure tourism is low yielding also.
So a PVG-AKL route doesn't make much economic sense to me.
Does NZ have the rights to fly beyond China? Why not fly their 777 to PVG and then onwards to Europe?
ZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5131 posts, RR: 11 Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4489 times:
Seriously it is about time someone started non stop service to PVG ex AKL! An awful lot of CX and SQ's pax ex AKL connect to China! Also alot of people fly to SYD and then connect to CZ, MU, CA's flights. I definatly think the market is there for non-stop flights! NZ have been as 777ER said above have been looking at the Chinese market for sometime!
NZ do have traffic rights beyond China so an AKL-PVG-LHR route could be possible if they can't get the rights to go via HKG.
LA could also be a possibility here with them looking at China, so a SCL-AKL-PVG service maybe. As much as I would like to see BA come back to AKL its not that likely unfortunatly. Even with the England-NZ market very strong, there is alot of competition. And it takes 3 aircraft and alot of crew to run a daily service.
6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3290 posts, RR: 21 Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4447 times:
Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 5): Seriously it is about time someone started non stop service to PVG ex AKL! An awful lot of CX and SQ's pax ex AKL connect to China! Also alot of people fly to SYD and then connect to CZ, MU, CA's flights. I definatly think the market is there for non-stop flights! NZ have been as 777ER said above have been looking at the Chinese market for sometime!
Is there any data that supports this view?
Brisbane for example, has over 220,000 passenger movements to/from China, eyt has no direct services. The market is adequately served by SQ and CX, and it will be at least another 12 months before a carrier launches non-stop services.
Zkojh From China, joined Sep 2004, 1573 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4397 times:
I heard that (NZ) are planning on going into Zurich ! Since I was at Zurich Airport yesterday, waiting for my flight to MAN, I spoke to some Swiss Staff and they were confidant , thou think it might be a codeshare when SWISS join Star next year, haven't NZ already got a codeshare into Zurich??
The rumor about PVG seems to have gone very quite, from NZ, thou they haven't got ANY planes from Boeing yet, hint someone is on strike !! , more then anything, NZ will start the route, but when is anyone's thinking, the AGM next month , in AUCKLAND, might give some light ,,
6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3290 posts, RR: 21 Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4248 times:
Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 11): I think the currently code share with SQ to ZRH. Wouldnt it be interesting if the did daily AKL-PVG and have selected days where they serve ZRH, FRA and CDG fro PVG Oh well, just dreaming right now
I don't think NZ codeshare on SQ flight to ZRH.
As for the choice between FRA and CDG.. here are the schedules:
MTWTFSS 1:50p PVG 6:25p FRA 1 LH 729 Non-stop 744 11:35
MTWTFSS 1:50p PVG 6:25p FRA 1 *CA 6229 Non-stop 747 11:35
MTWTF*S 12:55p PVG 5:40p FRA 1 CA 935 Non-stop 74E 11:45
MTWTF*S 12:55p PVG 5:40p FRA 1 *LH 2939 Non-stop 74E 11:45
ZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5131 posts, RR: 11 Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4173 times:
I'm not really a figures person. I agree that an NZ service to China would be best extending to Europe.
Strange really how the Chinese carriers aren't big in Europe, considering the size of the Chinese market. That could be a factor in AKL not getting a mainland Chinese carrier.
China Southwest flew a few flights to AKL in the winter of 1999 with an A343. Flights started at 1 weekly and were to increase to 2 over the summer. They only operated 4 flights total. Not that surprising given the time of year they started and also the fact that they aren't 1 of the big 3 carriers in China.
Air China flew to AKL from July 2000 to March 2001, they operated a 744 on a PVG-SYD-AKL 2x weekly. Wrong aircraft, not non-stop and via SYD making it worse being that there is alot of competition on the route.
China Eastern operated charters to AKL in December 2003 January 2004 with 2 weekly 343's. Loads seemed to be ok, and I get the feeling they did it to test the market and loads were reasonable and it was non stop. I did read on another forum that they may make the flight scheduled but that never happened.
While I agree that it is a reasonably seasonal market it seems that there is a need for non stop flights to me, I mean afterall a non stop verse a 1 stop service surely must appeal more to the customer. So weather it be BA, MU, NZ or anyone else, there will be IMO an AKL-PVG non stop service within 2 years. Taking into account also that it is a fast developing market.
I'd say BNE will get a mainland Chinese carrier within 2-3 years aswell.
Unfortunately, or fortunately these days, figures do play a role in airline decision making. so while many of us specators have wish lists, I think commercial reality must prevail when airlines are making such big investments on opening new routes.
Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 13): While I agree that it is a reasonably seasonal market it seems that there is a need for non stop flights to me, I mean afterall a non stop verse a 1 stop service surely must appeal more to the customer.
Seasonality is a MAJOR factor for the chinese market. This Nov-March, China Eastern is adding 3pw PVG-MEL-PVG on top of it's scheduled 3pw PVG-MEL-SYD-PVG services. The moral of the story is:
1. It's a safer option to add capacity during peak than operate it year-round
2. With an office and crewing in MEL, it's easier to add capacity
3. As a bonus for all southern hemisphere destinations, Chinese carriers can operate supplementary services to the USA or Europe furing the northern summer, but there is a big opportunity for supps or charters during the northern winter (Nov-Mar), when.. a) The aircraft a surplus to northern hemisphere requirements, b) this coincides with peak season for travel ex-China, and c) we have the warmer weather in the southern hemisphere, and the Chinese are seeking a summer holiday!
Chinaeastern From China, joined Apr 2004, 348 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4006 times:
thanks guys for the replies
Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 13): Air China flew to AKL from July 2000 to March 2001, they operated a 744 on a PVG-SYD-AKL 2x weekly. Wrong aircraft, not non-stop and via SYD making it worse being that there is alot of competition on the route.
actually, that was PEK-PVG-SYD-AKL. CA just seem to be enjoying doing services 2 stops away from their PEK hub. some of their MEL services are still doing that.
Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 12): A rough schedule would be:
not bad timing, that means possibility to connect MUC service as well.
Quoting Chinaeastern (Thread starter): One problem too is that Oz and NZ are bundled together as a tourist destination in the view of Asians in general. If they visit NZ they would almost certainly visit Oz as well. They might fly into NZ but out from Oz or vice versa, which means they don't need a direct China-NZ service.
this is mainly due to the lack of traffic. a year ago, there was still hongkong-oz bundled package which was really weired. NZ itself is big enough for a holiday and i reckon at least 2 months should be spent in NZ in anyone's lifetime. i absolutely loved it, plus there is destination beyond NZ which QF can't even think about competing with. About the yield, a big proportion of chinese tourists fly J class as they don't pay for it themselves (only happens in communist coutries which r no longer communist, instead about thinking about the ironic aspect, why not just enjoy it?) Y+ could be a bit hard to sell. for Y, just treat the back half of the 777 as low cost. i mean SIN or HKG route still offer lots of cheap seats.
it would be good if NZ extend from PVG beyond to europe. CDG wouldn't help much as there are lots of seats available from PVG-CDG( though i don't know what the hell CA is doing there offering trice-weekly services, they seem to be interested in every european route out of PVG, FRA, CDG, MXP and FCO).
plus there is millions of asian carriers offering AKL-somewhere-CDG plus TN.
FRA should be good and they can codeshare on MUC as well. maybe they can codeshare with AF as well to CDG given the proximity of MUC and CDG departure time from PVG, as AF does not have a partner to NZ yet.
ZRH sounds very attractive, the yield should be high and LX would be able to provide beyond routes. as ZRH is not part of EU, baggage can be checked through to final distination.
NZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2221 posts, RR: 27 Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3899 times:
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My lips are sealed - to a certain extent. You won't see much movement on, lets say, new routes, until the 777's arrive. I was told today that ZK-OKA and OKB may not arrive in AKL until mid December at the earliest.
Onedude From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 214 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3879 times:
I was at an NZ evening function at Parliament House in QLD about 6 months ago. The head of Tourism Queensland was pushing NZ to stop in BNE on the way back from PVG. Ralph Norris said at the time this was a possibility. Also in the past NZ have stopped in BNE to sustain their Asia services.
NZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6081 posts, RR: 40 Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3875 times:
I think that people would prefer nonstop services to their destinations. TG recently said that they were going to cut out the AKL-BNE-BKK for the sacrifice of a direct flight. I would expect a nonstop service.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
25 NZ1: I'm not sure if there is a priority. Currently, the 744 returning from SFO usually goes on to BNE. However this changes from time to time. NZ1
26 6thfreedom: If the service was only PVG-AKL, then operating via BNE would be feasible, and an excellent idea. If NZ was able to operate beyond, perhaps to FRA or
27 ZK-NBT: If the China NZ market grows 124% as predicted over the next 6 years, then I don't think this flight will be stopping anywhere, it would be daily 772