Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
TWA Might Stop Services To Europe And Israel!  
User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

Please go to this URL:



it was written at the Israeli business newspaper, Globes.
dont forget to write your reply! (....especially all of you TWA defenders....)

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2675 times:

Sorry,
http://www.home.globes.co.il/cgi-bin/Serve_Arena/pages/English/1.2.1.3/


User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

something is not working!!!!!!!!!!!!
just go to:
http://www.globes.co.il
it will stay there only 'till sunday,
than there are new headlines


User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

I doubt that TWA is profitable on transatlantic routes. From JFK, it competes
with Delta, American, and soon United (Paris flights) not to mention the now
leaner, more efficient European carriers like Air France and Alitalia. There is
also Continental, at Newark, which has built a formidable New York hub.

It only flies to Milan, Paris, Lisbon, Tel Aviv, Cairo, and Riyadh, and from
STL to Gatwick.

Much has been written about this from a number of excellent contributors.
Thanks for the article.

ContinentalEWR


User currently offlineUK-TWA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

This article was evidently written by a hack. If you read carefully between the lines, you'll find no indication that TWA has ever hinted at a possible cessation of service to Tel Aviv. On the contrary, CEO Compton has reiterated time and again that TWA may deemphasize Europe and INCREASE service to the Middle East. As a matter of fact, TWA's station manager is quoted as saying that he is awaiting an answer from management regarding an increase in service. He'll get this answer shortly: TWA has just received approval for the STL-CDG-TLV route.

User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Let's see, TWA recently INCREASES its service to TLV, gets approval for CDG-TLV, and just today announces further codeshare agreements with a Mideast airline (Kuwait) as part of its strategy of being the "premier U.S. airline in the Middle East," (exact words from Compton) and then all of a sudden they're going to leave Israel and Europe????

PLEASE. GET REAL. It doesn't surprise me this garbage was generated in your part of the world.

I don't know what vendetta you have against TWA El Al 001 (and you too ContinentalEWR), but every thread I've seen you post here has been something negative and false about TW.

Don't you have any other aviation interests besides the demise of TWA? Or did your father once work for them and got fired or something??



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2579 times:

seems like you have something against us!
i have nothing against TWA, all i saw was an article that i thought will be interesting,
It is not false! i think YOU should get real!
you dont think its true, bring a proof!
dont start this fight again, like we had 2 weeks ago....
I can call too, to Globes legal department and send them your harsh speech on their article!

just kiding...but god, what is your problem??? cant you cope with it in normal way? check some information, it might happen to be true!


User currently offlineSju-lax From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

Well, El Al 001, and ContinentalEWR, it's seems you both are misinformed and speak of TWA as if it were the year 1995-what a disaster. Well, first of all, TWA only serves Lisbon, Milan, Paris, Tel-Aviv and Cairo...Riyadh is a tag from Cairo, it's not served nonstop but managment has hinted that this will be the first of a proposed expanded presence in the middle east, although I don't think Riyadh is within TWA's 767-300s range. TWA has said in the past, that flights to Rome, Madrid, Manchester, Frankfurt and year-round Paris service would be operated from STL if the customs were to be upgraded. There is no way TWA would pull out of Europe. The cities that were left, were chosen for a reason. If they really didn't make money, wouldn't you thing TWA would chop 'em as soon as they could? None of this...'50 year tradition of service crap-' in today's industry you can't just stay in a market because of my afformentioned reasons. All of TWA's Euro stations are to be upgraded to 767-300 equiment if they aren't already. TWA is a powerhouse in the middle-east. El Al 001's pissed because El AL just can't cut it- even if they are brand-spanking new 747-400s, ( w/ the industry's most boring livery I might add,) against TWA's 50+ year established presence in the Isreali aviation community. And as for you, ContinentalEWR, you want your precious CAL to desperately to be taken seriously in Southern Europe- something that certainly won't happen for a while. I'm sure this is just the beginning of TWA's long overdue Euro-turnaround. It'll happen slowly, because TWA's smart, Compton's smart- he knows how to run TWA, where to fly, and where they can make money. The fact is...

THE MIDDLE EAST=TRANS WORLD AIRLINES=$$$$$$$$

I don't comment too much on this board- I know when I'm needed, and I would love to hear some of Activale's more insider comments...

As always, comments are always appreciated, and here we go again- and I'm confident I've proven my point- ifI see that you little can't behaive yourselves like nice little adults, I suppose I could return to slam somebody else-

SJU-LAX,...exclusivity is the ONLY way to go, go TWA!!!


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

SJU-LAX: You have my upmost admiration and appreciation for your contibution!

And yes, where are you Al (acvitale) on this one??



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2528 times:

yea....where are you Acvitale? please be kind....no more fights!!!!!!!!!

listen TWA fans, i have no problem with TWA! really!
what i have shown you was a simple article,
it is not a secret that TWA is not strong on international flights! and i can believe that they are thinking to close the services to EU,
there is nothing you can do about it, a fact is a fact! TWA has only 13% of the US-TLV routes, it isnt much!. dont start talking on LY, it has 50% of the market with 3-5 daily flights to NYC always full!

I am seek of talking on TWA problems all the time, i hate those fights, forget from the article, and please cut off on the replys, we said all we can say already.


User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

I MEANT SICK!!!

User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2511 times:

Sorry gang, I was out inspecting an A330-200 before we took delivery.. Beautiful plane BTW!

The article in itself is misleading... The headline states TWA may cut back service to TLV but, at the same time talks about the station manager awaiting additional service notification.

Yes TWA did recieve approval from the DOT to commence a tag with a 757-200 or 757-300 to operate CDG-TLV on May 30th. I think that is indicative of the increases TWA plans for the region.

TWA is also looking at a 2nd daily JFK-TLV flight as well.

Service on the new route is to begin as early as July 1st, 2000 as filed in the application.

Some comments on the Globe and this article

The Globe is the same paper that started the rumor that El Al was to buy out Tower (impossible under US laws governing ownership of US flag carriers for national defence reasons).
The Globe then came out with an article that said that Tower would be bought out by Arkia once again did not happen.
The Globe also stated Tower would resume flying JFK-TLV.. Again not likely...

The Globe article cited traffic numbers from 1995 when TWA flew 2x daily 747 aircraft in the season and 1x daily 747 aircraft off season and compared them to the current 767-300er offering. The load factor in 1995 was around 65% and now it is currently at 86% year round. Yields on this route are higher then systemwide average and it is quite profitable. Hence the increases in service.

The Globe also made several references to TWA's financial condition being poor and basically tried to slander them, Yet never made negative comments referencing Tower Air.. Yet TWA is in a better financial condition then at any previous point in the last 6 years. (Long Term Debt reduced from 1.6 billion to 600 million, pension fund paid off and funded for the first time in 23 years and cash on hand is sitting around 170 million up from a low of 60 million in the mid 1990's)

I found this all to be interesting.. A quick check will reveal several ties between Tower Air and the Globe...

I think we should all go to the Edgars SEC filings page and compare names to those on the globe website.. Interesting isn't it...

Hmm.. The globe loses credability yet again.

Tower is trying to keep the only assets it has.. The TLV routes.. Everyone else has grabbed everything else.. UA, TW and DL fighting for JFK-CDG, TW getting CDG-TLV, and then the rumored JFK-TLV filing about to come from TW and 1 day prior FF announces they are goinf to resume service and that the route is not dormant. The next day the Globe article.. Very very interesting..

TWA did state in Q4 1999 they would fly only profitable routes.. They have kept to that commitment dropping several non profitable routes (BCN was marginal and probably could have worked as a tag from LIS) and have increased yields while cutting costs.

They are considering adding several European destinations from STL and JFK (STL is awaiting customs area remodeling/retrofitting)(JFK has seen some increased traffic over the last 2 months.)

It looks like TWA is ready for a profitable Q2 this year and that bodes well for them. It will be the first operating profit they have seen in quite a while. Additionally, Q3 projections are quite nice as well. Q4 is a traditional loss leader for TWA but, with the new focus cities and sun destinations that might change as well. Time will tell.

Comments anyone?


User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2498 times:

You ask for facts....

I again give you real facts


Check the following


http://dms.dot.gov

Do a docket search for OST agency and search the year 2000 and Trans World Airlines... The facts are there!

Gonna report them to Globe's legal...

Better report me...

I will let you quote me on this one...

"The Globe is a hack newspaper that has just written an article that is factually incorrect and borders on liable. The Globe has obvious links to Tower Air and has used it's influence improperly to defame certain competitors and to push the services of Tower Air. The Globe uses manipulation out dated data and factually incorrect information as well as statements taken out of context and sprinkled with inunendo to further profit themselves"

And I can prove it!


User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

I am sick.
but i am sorry, i must send this metirial to Globes legal department tomorrow morning, someone here is in troubles
Globes has nothing in common with FF.
Globes considered as a honored business newspaper, FF cosidered as a joke, not even an airline,
they DO NOT have links to each other!
This time you are way out.....again you are trying to put me in the way that what ever i write is false, no more! you have gone too far!
someone in your position had to know that Arkia did want to buy FF, they were really seriously about it!
also LY thought of this.
by doing a small research you whould have noticed that FF wants to fly again to TLV, if it will work or not, that is something else, but you cant speak on Globes the way you did.
I usked you specificly not to start this again, this time you are totaly worng! nothing yu'll say will change that!
I can try to organize an e.m for you from Pat arthur & Globes, will see what yu'll have to say after it!


User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

ElAl babay, I invite it...


Bring it on.. The article headline was absolutly liabelous...

TWA is increasing service.

Nothing they have published referencing US aviation to Israel is even close...

Let's go through this trash rag that you call reputable and destroy the article line by line! Give me a few minutes and I will post a line by line comparision...

BTW looking forward to hearing from the Globe's legal department.. My email is acvitale@gdi.net and I would love to hear them dispute what I just posted...


User currently offlineLindy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

Guys!!!!

Why you fighting about this thing???? I dont understand it!!!
This is not EL AL 001 FOULT!!!

He was just that kind that he gave us a link to the Israeli newspaper, nothing else.

If that info is wrong, dont fight with HIM, send email to the newspaper editor and the case will be closed.

You guys act like a little kids. He didnt do anything wrong, but he gave you a favor. Put yourself in his skin. Imagine if you post here link to the page with totaly wrong info, and all of a sudden people fighting with you.

Thats not the way you should talk here.
EL AL even appologized here but this is NOT his misstake.

Shame on you guys.

Regards,
Rafal


User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

First let us talk about the headline...

The globe says, "TWA Considers Discontinuing Flights to Israel Due to Decline in Activity" Yet the facts say that TWA's load factor went from 65% to 86% and that TWA is increasing by adding service from CDG-TLV and considering a 2nd daily JFK-TLV flight. So let's see no part of the headline is correct. That is that the headline is FACTUALLY incorrect... The same day this article is published we have a July 1st start date on CDG-TLV service... Decline in activity... No load factor on the route is a record high and yields are higher then system wide average...

Now, I love the next line... "TWA's management in St. Louis is considering the possibility of discontinuing the company's flights to Israel, "Globes" has learnt." How has the Globe learned this... It is factually incorrect. TWA is considering additional service not a decrease in service.. Not only that they cannot even spell learned correctly.. Amazing for this highly esteemed business publication.. They publish an english language version and cannot even spell how unprofessional..

Next line....
"TWA's activity in Israel was halved since 1995, with the number of its passengers falling from 278,000 in 1995 to 146,000 in 1999." This statement is also unprofessional... It fails to cite exact numbers, sources for the numbers and cannot even count I do not know where you come from but half of 278,000 is 139,000 where I come from.. Additionally, the service TWA offers dropped from a high of 2x daily 747 to 1x daily 767 as TWA restructered and eliminated the L1011 and 747 fleets from it's system.

I love this comment, "TWA is one of the most economically unstable US carriers. It came to the brink of bankruptcy several time in the past decade, operating under Chapter 11." No TWA did not come to the brink of bankruptcy they went into it twice in the last 20 years. Yet they are hardly the most economically unstable US carriers... Anyone who looks at TWA will note that their financial situation has improved. Long term debt down from 1.5 billion to around 600 million, Pension fuind has been paid off and satisfied for the first time in 25-30 years. Cash on hand is at 170 million up from an all time low of 60 million. Expected to turn an operating profit in Q2 for the first time in years... In essence it is old data not presented properly and fearmongering... Hack reporting at best... BTW, Tower, Vanguard and others are in far worse shape then TWA.

Next line, "This year the company's management in Missouri decided to shut down all its operations in Spain and in Italy, with the exception of Milano, a purely business destination." Now you must ask yourself how does shutting down Rome equate to shut down all operations in Italy ? The shut down one Italian city and the paper would have you believe they pulled out of the country... Further it fails to mention the TWA bus link ups between Milano and central Italy. Amazing... Shut down 3 cities and you have pulled out of Europe!

Love this one.... "TWA general manager in Israel, Pat Arthur, says that the company's management in the US is currently looking into the future of all its international operations, including the possibility of discontinuing all flights to Europe. "The inclination is to leave only international stations with proven profitability", Arthur said. "I'm awaiting an answer from the management concerning the possibility of increasing the number of our flights to and from Israel." Ok so in the headline it said TWA is gonna pull out of Israel and here we have a quote saying TWA is adding service.. Oh I love this paper... Can I get it to use as birdcage liner... That is all it is good for with articles like this one...

Another quote yet not cited or relevant... Who said it? It is an opinion... I love Israel but I personally consider Buenos Aires to be a better international destination... It has no business in a business newspaper show me facts baby! "Travel agents ask me why there more seats aren't available on the Israel line. Flights to Israel make money, and represent the best international destination".

Ahhh here we go let's see.... "El Al, TWA and Continental currently operate flights on the Israel-US line, after Tower Air went bankrupt and discontinued its operations. ISSTA (in cooperation with Arkia), American Airlines, and Lambada World (in cooperation with World Airways) are planning to operate on this line." I love this.. Lambada World has not even filed with the DOT so they cannot operate flights anytime soon... American announced they were studying the route and did not commit to service.. Yet Israel papers keep quoting otherwise... Even when the airline issued a press release stating they considered the route.. They consider hundreds of routes every year was the quote.. Talk about being self important... This newspaper makes the news up on slow days.. Their slogan should be no news.. fine we will create it... Again factually incorrect...
They should fire the writer and editors of this story.. They should learn to check facts and stop making up false items and publishing..

They should publish an appology for an article like this... If I hear from them you can bet that is what I will be pushing for...


User currently offlineUSAirways737 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1026 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

Amen to that!  


737



User currently offlineLindy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

I dont care what you like or dislike from that article. Write email to that newspaper and appology to EL AL


Rafal


User currently offlineAA-SAN From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

Ok: I just checked in the dictionary (I hope that I can count on its accuracy) under fighting, squabling, arguing, rudeness, disrespect and many other synonyms to these words... and nowhere did I see anything that said "caused by mentioning any negatives of TWA on airliners.net". The vast majority of the people here see the obvious contradiction between the title of the article and the facts presented in it, but it's nobody's fault but the Globe's for the mistake. I know all you TWA fans are sick and tired of defending your airline, and I'm sick of reading about it, but if you are going do keep defending it, which you have the right to do, please be a little more respectful in the way that you are doing it! And to those people that keep bringing up the TWA negatives PLEASE STOP!!! WE'VE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD WAY TOO MANY TIMES LATELY!!!

User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

Lindy, My attack is on incorrect facts and bad reporting.. My issues with El Al 001 go to his constant TWA bashing and most of it unsubstatiated.. Might I suggest a search of the past articles if you need to bring yourself up to speed...

El Al 001 I want to point out another thing.. Assuming your numbers were correct you said the following

"TWA has only 13% of the US-TLV routes, it isnt much!. dont start talking on LY, it has 50% of the market with 3-5 daily flights to NYC always full!"

Well let's do some simple math... TWA operates currently with a single daily 767-300 that holds 233 passengers... EL Al operates with 747-200 and 747-400 aircraft on 31 weekly departures.. For TWA to hold 13% of the US-TLV market with that means that assuming their 86% load factor... TWA 233 seats x2 (roundtrip) 466 seats daily.. x 7 days = 3263 seats in the market on TWA... at an 86% load factor that means 2805 -2806 seats a week are filled with revenue travellers...

Ok lets go to El Al and figure what their load factor is.. If TWA takes 13% of the market with 2805 seats that means the market is 21576 seats weekly... El Al with 31 weekly departures provides approx 24738 seats. at a 50% share of the market that means El Al is flying 10788 revenue seats or in plain English...


El Al flies 24738 seats a week fills on average 10788 of them and has a load factor of 43%!

A 43% load factor is hardly flying full (unless a whole lot of non-revenue passenegers are on them)

By your own numbers El Al has the worst load factor between the US and TLV and hence is nothing more than a bottom feeder yield wise.. Does that mean they lose money on these routes??? Sure is interesting isn't it..

I would hate to think things are that bad at El Al. Instead I would think there must be an error in your numbers yet again... Waiting to hear your reply  


User currently offlineLindy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2427 times:

I am very sorry that I put here my 2 cents.
I didnt wanna offend any of you, it was just thing that few of you jumped on poor EL AL.

Please dont take my words wrong way, I dont want to make enemies in this forum.

Regards,
Rafal




User currently offlineCyberkitty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2414 times:

I notice so much bashing of TWA. If TWA is of no consequence, as many like to insist, why the fascination with what they may or may not do?

User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

So true so true...



BTW, here is a link for those who feel a letter to the editor is in order.....


http://home.globes.co.il/cgi-bin/Serve_Arena/pages/English/1.9.4/


User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (14 years 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

TWA First,

You are ignorant and obnoxious. Why are you so
opposed to others having views and opinions about
TWA that differ from your own.

TWA is an ailing carrier. They are trying hard to
return to profitability but face it, they've never
turned a profit during a record boom time for
the US airline industry. And how dare you
suggest that the Globe article could only
originate from the "region". El Al 001 was only
trying to introduce a pertinent and valuable
topic for conversation. I understand that you
are highly knowledgeable about TWA. Great.
All the better. Contribute something useful
then.



25 Acvitale : Do not get to worked up.. He is just tired of defending TWA to El Al 001 who has made it a lifelong goal to bash them whenever possible.. I personally
26 El Al 001 : Even you coudnt come with right nombers, but as always you are trying to fight, you are so immature!!! LY has a load factor on TLV-NYC of 83%!!! I did
27 Acvitale : Sorry El Al dude... But I used your numbers the number of El Al flights 31 weekly and the equipment 747 along with the numbers from the article.. Expl
28 Acvitale : Let me clarify to insure no confusion... If LY flies 31 weekly flights on a 747 how many seats is that... 31 frequencies x 420 seats x 2 (roundtrip) =
29 El Al 001 : god.... 33 flights on summmmmer only. you forgot that the nomber is reffered to transatlantic flights, it includs flights to ORD, YYZ, LAX, MCO not on
30 El Al 001 : point is that there are 33 transatlantic flights only at summer, at winter there are only 18 weekly flights, it depans on the demand, LY is very flexi
31 Acvitale : El Al dude, Do not start trying to act innocent.. You brought up El Al and it's 50% market share.. The 31 weekly flights came from the El Al press rel
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Sky Europe To Expand Services To STN And ORY posted Fri Aug 1 2003 15:58:42 by Pe@rson
LTU Services To PEK And PVG posted Mon May 15 2006 20:53:09 by Airlittoralguy
SQ New Services To MXP And BCN This Summer posted Tue Apr 25 2006 14:45:47 by Aukahkay
Iberia To Stop Services To LHR? posted Mon Apr 3 2006 13:14:48 by Drinkstrolley
New Services To Scotland And EK Aircraft Change. posted Wed Jul 13 2005 23:37:08 by Dogfighter2111
PAL To Resume Services To Europe? posted Tue Apr 19 2005 11:04:54 by United Airline
AO To Stop Services To BKI posted Tue Feb 15 2005 11:24:17 by Dugway
Iberia Starts Services To Moscow And Beirut posted Tue Feb 8 2005 16:26:46 by Imonti
AA Services To Europe posted Sat Oct 23 2004 23:12:07 by Wheelsatc
Denver Aims For 2nd Non-Stop Flight To Europe posted Thu May 6 2004 21:04:24 by Yanksn4