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NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed  
User currently offlineFlydl2atl From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 119 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7721 times:

Looks like NWA will be joining Jerry & Co. at Bankruptcy court.

http://biz.yahoo.com/cbsmb/050913/cd...04bc43a09c16b618d4173f58.html?.v=1

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7688 times:

I didn't know NW was in such bad shape. But what happens to the striking workers now? Can NW just fire them upder Ch 11 or are they protected somehow? I hope NW doensn't misuse the Ch 11 filing just to resolve the strike.


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7651 times:

Nevermind, I just read the other thread. Apparantly they don't need Ch.11 to fire the strikers.


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineBraniff727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 686 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7615 times:

This, frankly, is not a surprise to me. I think had NW gotten wage concessions earlier on in the game, rather that waiting they may have been in better shape. Ultimately, this will probably end up getting them the cost savings they need a lot easier.


Climbing
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7606 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
Apparantly they don't need Ch.11 to fire the strikers.

Aren't the strikers being encourged to come back? Where did it say they were being fired?


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7581 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 4):
Aren't the strikers being encourged to come back? Where did it say they were being fired?

See this thread

Northwest To Keep Replacement Workers..... (by Alberchico Sep 13 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Since they will be keeping the replacements, I assume the strikers will be let go.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineBraniff727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 686 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7543 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
Since they will be keeping the replacements, I assume the strikers will be let go.

Actually, the strikers continue to strike. From what I understand they just remain on strike, however they can come back to work, however only if there are positions available. Since the replacement workers are now permanent, and NW said they only intend to keep 1080 mechanic jobs, I would assume very few would be able to come back at this point.



Climbing
User currently offlineFlydl2atl From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7508 times:

I wonder if the powers that be (GE) would want to merge the two bankrupt carriers once they shed some of their debt and union contracts.

User currently offlineBraniff727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 686 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7456 times:

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 7):
I wonder if the powers that be (GE) would want to merge the two bankrupt carriers once they shed some of their debt and union contracts.

That was a rumor I heard around NW. I stress rumor, with nothing credible behind it. I heard several versions from DL would file Ch.7 and take over the whole company, then file Ch.11. to NW and DL filing, then pulling an HP / US thing.

Now that it looks like they will both file on the same day, makes me thing something might be in the works...



Climbing
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7401 times:

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 7):
I wonder if the powers that be (GE) would want to merge the two bankrupt carriers once they shed some of their debt and union contracts.

I was thinking the same thing. Since we know that GE will be financing DL's bankruptcy, and that (based on recent history), it is quite possible that they might also be financing NW's, I don't think it outside the realm of possibility at all that GE might want to merge the two into a single company.

On a somewhat related note: if DL and NW were to merge -- which I think would create an excellent network but makes little to no sense -- I'd bet that NW will restart JFK-NRT quickly. Combining DL feed and market presence in New York would probably make the route a success once again, at least IMO.


User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7386 times:
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Quoting Braniff727 (Reply 8):
Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 7):
I wonder if the powers that be (GE) would want to merge the two bankrupt carriers once they shed some of their debt and union contracts.

That was a rumor I heard around NW. I stress rumor, with nothing credible behind it. I heard several versions from DL would file Ch.7 and take over the whole company, then file Ch.11. to NW and DL filing, then pulling an HP / US thing.

Now that it looks like they will both file on the same day, makes me thing something might be in the works...

That would be real intersting to watch fallout from - as has been pointed out in the numerous DL/NW threads, a DL/NW merger has significant issues to overcome (see the many numerous threads themselves for details).

- litz


User currently offlineBpat777 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7369 times:

Is it possible for anything positive to come out of DL and/or NW filing for BK?

User currently offlineAAgent From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 560 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7362 times:

Given today's harsh economic environment, a trip to bankruptcy court now appears more like hanging out inside the country club. The tragic flip side is that many of the stronger airlines are left outside in the real world to take the full force of this financial monsoon...a storm that is made more fierce by the artificial forces protecting competitors, competitors that market forces have already clearly demonstrated should no longer exist. Whatever happened to the capitalistic notion that "the strongest survive"? The system wasn't never intended to be a convalescent home for the weak.

This isn't a judgment call on the weakened carriers, it's simply an observation. There have been some tremendous forces at work for the past several years, any of which could have caused the demise of a great air carrier. Is there any way to stop this cancerous spread and instead allow market forces to do their work?

Best Regards,
AAgent



War Eagle!
User currently offlineZone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7314 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
if DL and NW were to merge -- which I think would create an excellent network but makes little to no sense

A DL/NW merger would make a sweet international route structure, but the domestic routes and the fleet would need some serious revamping. The company would have large amounts of Airbuses, Boeings, and of course our cherished MD products. A lot of planes would need to be dumped and seats would definitely be removed from the market, which is exactly what the industry needs. GE would be happy financing some new planes after things are worked out. Might we see a 787 and 747Adv in Delta colors?

I don't think anyone thought the filing for NW would be this close, as evident in the 57% drop in the stock price today. NW is also in default with Mesaba:
http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-09-13_18-37-17_n13583440_newsml

Things are looking pretty bad for NW today.



/// U N I T E D
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16860 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7272 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
On a somewhat related note: if DL and NW were to merge -- which I think would create an excellent network but makes little to no sense -- I'd bet that NW will restart JFK-NRT quickly. Combining DL feed and market presence in New York would probably make the route a success once again, at least IMO.

Even if DL did merge with NWA the combined company would still be behind CO, AA and B6 in the NYC market. Also remember DL operated JFK-NRT and dropped the route, their "larger" presence in the NY market and feeder flights at JFK were not enough.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3104 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7271 times:

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

NWA Denies Bankruptcy Report, Begins Hire Process-Video Report Included

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_256145456.html


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7254 times:

Quoting AAgent (Reply 12):
Given today's harsh economic environment, a trip to bankruptcy court now appears more like hanging out inside the country club. The tragic flip side is that many of the stronger airlines are left outside in the real world to take the full force of this financial monsoon...a storm that is made more fierce by the artificial forces protecting competitors, competitors that market forces have already clearly demonstrated should no longer exist. Whatever happened to the capitalistic notion that "the strongest survive"? The system wasn't never intended to be a convalescent home for the weak.

AMEN BROTHER!!!


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7244 times:

Quoting AAgent (Reply 12):
Whatever happened to the capitalistic notion that "the strongest survive"?

Labor groups started giving money to political candidates.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7236 times:

given that NW's stock is down a staggering 57% in the past 2 1/2 hours, I think bankruptcy might coming... Sad


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

If its like the strike, NWAC might be taken a calculated step. UAL has become leaner & meaner while being protected & they´re the biggest competitor.

User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7188 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):
If its like the strike, NWAC might be taken a calculated step. UAL has become leaner & meaner while being protected & they´re the biggest competitor

Now...imagine how much 'leaner and meaner' NWA might be had UAL not been afforded the "protection" of bankruptcy court? Imagine how AA would be a world beater had they not had to compete with a bankrupt US and UAL?

I'm a big SWA fan, but when they don't fly where I am going, then I'll book on AA - even if it is a few dollars more. It's the principle of the thing...I'll give my business to any company who finds a way to compete WITHOUT screwing so many people in the process via the bankruptcy courts.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7069 times:

I agree ... isn't it time just to let one or two of these carriers completely die off? A reduction in capacity won't solve all the industry's problems, but it will be a start.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7021 times:
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Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 20):
I'll give my business to any company who finds a way to compete WITHOUT screwing so many people in the process via the bankruptcy courts.

Well, I think DL should at least be given some credit for struggling so darn hard to stay out of BK court. When Grinstein was making the rounds with Congress to petition for pension relief, many officials point blank asked him "Why don't you just file for Ch.11?". Even today, when everyone is already betting that DL will file for CH. 11 in the next few days, DL comes up with a rather anti-climatic official statement "Bankruptcy remains a possibility": http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/050913/1163482.html?.v=3


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13078 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6994 times:

How long will it be before Independence Air files too?
I know that some on these boards are drooling and having orgasims over the possibility of NW and DL going into Ch. 11 BK for their own selfish and foolish reasons.
Only bad things can come from more airlines filing for bankruptcy. You will end up with less competition and thus more expensive fares. No more '$99' fares on cross-country trips. How many companies under pressure to cut costs reduce travel even further than they have? Higher prices combined with economic weakness also means a wide range of people not flying, business or pleasure. Less service from food to baggage (if it can get less). Less frequency of service, especially from certain cities and regions that are already in decline. More "Jungle Jets" and fewer full size jets (737's on up). A lot fewer jobs in the USA for MX, and if they could get away with it, as to pilots, FA's, etc. More contract workers instead of direct employees, getting paid very cheap and with no benefits. How long will it be before AA, CO, and even (very remotely) WN will have to consider BK if competitive pressures, labor costs, continuing high fuel prices and if a decline in the USA economy?


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6933 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 23):
How long will it be before AA, CO, and even (very remotely) WN will have to consider BK if competitive pressures, labor costs, continuing high fuel prices and if a decline in the USA economy?

Good question LTBEWR. IMO not long. Even WN will have to adjust their business model if most of their competition is operating under Ch 11 protection. IT seems as though NW and DL can't wait to dump their pension obligations and outsource. With AA and CO, it'll just take a little longer....



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
25 Pope : Why. All they've done is ensured that the people that invested in them get even less money. They've destroyed countless billions of dollar of shareho
26 Positiverate : Unfortunately, my guess is that DL will file at 4:01PM tomorrow in NYC. As bankruptcy lawyer who is a friedn of mine tells me that the NYC venue has b
27 Ken777 : I have a feeling that NW looked at their costs - especially fuel - and decided that Ch 11 would be in their future at some point. A decision to go bef
28 Flightopsguy : One of the biz journals is reporting another NW payment to their pension fund due Thursday. If they miss the payment, a lien will be placed against th
29 Warszawa : Wow - VERY Well Said (Added you to RU list) - Fully agree!
30 Ckfred : I heard Mike Boyd of the Boyd Group on CNBC yesterday. He said in 1979, when deregulation was enacted, that only 3 or 4 large carriers would be left i
31 Dougloid : Not entirely sure that large commercial enterprises like NW fared badly under the bankryuptcy reform bill.....not like consumers....I do not see any
32 TeamREGAL : Spoken like a true economist.
33 Post contains links KarlB737 : Try $65 Million Due Thursday Courtesy: KARE-TV Video Report: http://www.kare11.com/player.aspx?aid=18393&bw=
34 Post contains links Lightsaber : does it scare anyone else how much GE has. Wow, Northwest has skipped a debt payment! http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050913/northwest_mechanics.html?.v=12 L
35 Post contains images Aa777jr : AA and CO are still holding strong! Smile everyone.
36 CO757bos2iah : When you say investors you do mean the employees right ? In this day in age, it's sad that the stock of a companiy can actually RISE on the news of h
37 Post contains images AirRyan : And "Sir" Branson is still planning on bringing over his aircraft from Europe for a new airline here in the US?
38 September11 : I thought US airlines tend to declare bankruptcy on Saturdays/Sundays.
39 Comorin : Thoughtfully put! It's hard for us aviation enthusiasts to admit that what's good for UA, DL, US and NW is not fair for AA, WN and others. This morni
40 Post contains images AAgent : Oh, great! That's all we need, a fresh boxer in an already crowded ring. Best Regards, AAgent
41 TCFC424 : A few questions... BK court is just that...the airlines are requesting the protection from creditors. It is up to the court to determine if there is r
42 HunUtazo : He's lying.
43 AirRyan : I think I'm in your same boat- I just interviewed with NW yesterday... Honestly, I thought NW and CO were in about the same condition but I think the
44 GoldenArgosy : So, if this news does play out and NW and DL go into bankruptcy, who will be the most financially fit within the SkyTeam alliance. I'm guessing that i
45 SESGDL : If DL/NW merged, they would become the 2nd largest carrier in the New York area. Currently DL is #3 in New York, after CO and AA, who's only slightly
46 Bucky707 : What is your source for that statement? I have never seen any statistics, but having flown in LGA a lot, it sure seems like USAir has many more fligh
47 Bobnwa : Are you including the Delta shuttle terminal in that observation?
48 Positiverate : Or CO perhaps?
49 DAL767400ER : Not true. Statistics on the PANYNJ site show that AA is #1 at LGA, with US in #2 and DL in #3. Even including Song, Shuttle and Connection, DL would
50 Positiverate : Or CO perhaps?
51 Positiverate : Why would they merge? Delta is trying to simplify their fleet and reduce training and maintenance costs, not complicate them by picking up DC-9's, DC
52 Bucky707 : Yes, I am. Like I said, I don't know the answer, just seems to me like I see more USAirways flights? But I really do not know the answer.
53 Commavia : AA mainline is much larger than DL mainline in the New York metro area, and when you throw in regionals -- AA is still significantly larger than DL.
54 FriendlySkies : Hmm...who should I believe...the reputable airline analyst, or the little kid from "dudesville" who thinks he's the airline industry god... I think I
55 Goingboeing : Here's what I'd like to see a bankruptcy judge do...look at an airline under bankruptcy protection that was charging $250 prior to bankruptcy and is
56 ORD : You are incorrect. According to Aviation Daily, in an article dated March 30, 2005, here are the market share numbers for the top three carriers at L
57 Commavia : According to The Port Authority itself: For the month of June 2005 at LGA: AA + Eagle (6016683/23.4%) DL + Connection (5896368/22.9%)* US + Express (
58 ORD : The numbers I showed only reflect mainline. Therein lies the difference between our data, which are both correct. In either case, Delta is ahead of U
59 Post contains images Mrocktor : No, the investors are the investors, as in who owns the capital necessary for the company to exist. Companies are not jobs programs, they do not exis
60 Commavia : Sorry, but if your numbers only reflect mainline, than your numbers are still wrong, according to the Port Authority itself. Per PANYNJ statistics fo
61 Post contains links Dougloid : The petition is filed and then the bankrupt debtor has a certain amount of time to cook up a plan for recovery. Then the court confirms or rejects th
62 Milesrich : While TWA may have made it through two prior Chapter 11's, their third filing was part of the sale of certain assets to American; however, TW did not
63 HunUtazo : It's not that I'm God, it's just that I seem to have periods of time that would be best described as conflagrations of clarity... The constant ad hom
64 Ltbewr : It will be interesting to see when and where both NW and DL file their BK's. As another poster noted, probably both would do if after the stock market
65 Post contains links AirRyan : NW's stock is up 23.50% as of 1130 CST and with their $1.7b cash on hand, I too think they will not have to file Ch. 11. Perhaps the greatest reason w
66 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: KSTP-TV Northwest Bankruptcy Timing - Video Report http://kstp.dayport.com/viewer/viewerpage.php?Art_ID=162943
67 M404 : AirRyan Why would NW have to bring back AMFA? NW is no-where near getting the new concessions with any union in time for a vote. The bar has been rais
68 M404 : Not a much on sentance structure, but this went out to many NWA union members this morning from something called the Airline Workers News Service. You
69 Post contains links AirRyan : I disagree: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo...41%2D43D2%2D88DD%2D3E8609D1F6E3%7D But that goes a long way as to make up for yesterday's losses a
70 M404 : AirRyan Both you and the Market Watch seem to forget about several thousand IAM workers in negotiations. And meteorologists, dispatchers and other sma
71 PlanesNTrains : In my opinion: 1. The aircraft lessors are going to do whatever they can to put the newer equipment back in the air with some. The older could well b
72 DAYflyer : Delta will be owned by everyone BUT the stockholders by the time all the debt is figured out. I do not give them much of a chance of coming out of it.
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