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Delta Just Filed For Chapter 11!  
User currently offlineChiawei From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 944 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16583 times:

CNN just reported that Delta has filed for Chapter 11 protection.

191 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAAgent From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 560 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16549 times:

Yet more pressure on the stronger carriers to do the same. A sad day indeed.

Best Regards,
AAgent



War Eagle!
User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16503 times:

From Reuters:

Delta Air files for Chapter 11 protection

Wednesday September 14, 4:47 pm ET


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc. (NYSE:DAL - News), which has struggled to avoid bankruptcy for several months, on Wednesday filed for Chapter 11 protection, brought down by high oil prices and steep competition from low-cost carriers.

The No. 3 U.S. airline, which earlier this year said it did not have enough cash to meet its liquidity needs in 2005, filed for Chapter 11 protection in the U.S. bankruptcy court in the Southern District of New York.



Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16440 times:

Interesting that NW did not because now they have to make that pension payment tommorow or even CH11 won't take the lien off their assets?

User currently offlineSQ2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16440 times:

Delta now, Northwest will be the next one to file CH11 protection soon, which i hope not.


SQ always my 1st choice
User currently offlinePensacolaguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16330 times:

I really hope DL doesn't stay in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection for long. Hope they find a way to make money and term costs. Without drastically cutting routes/service.

*Has DL ever filled for Chapter 11 protection?


User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2032 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16278 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Direct from Delta:

http://www.delta.com/about_delta/deltas_restructuring/index.html

-Charlie


User currently offlineAAgent From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 560 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16277 times:

Now I suppose they'll be dumping their pension plan too.  irked 

Best Regards,
AAgent



War Eagle!
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3104 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16244 times:

The official press release:

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=9861

Best of luck to you Delta, long live the widget  white !


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16230 times:

Every one of these airlines should be out of business. Their business models have failed. The companies are no longer solvent.

I know it would suck for the employees. But everywhere else in the private sector, it's a way of life. And besides, new carriers will spring from the ashes.

Go work there.

And the first thoughts through your head are "what about my seniority or my pension"?

Then YOU ARE PART of the problem.

It's that antiquated, old school mentality that has dragged on at least two decades too long that got the airlines in the mess they are in today.


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16190 times:

Not Necessarily, It IS possible to go into bankruptcy without dumping a pension plan. However, This WAS a last option as no CEO ever wants to see his company go into Ch. 11... However, I feel if Mullin was still CEO, this would have happened a long time ago.

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16116 times:

I'm sorry to see Delta file, but hope that they can work things out with minimal pain - especially for the employees.

The fact that NW is holding on to cash - up to $100+ million - is a pretty good indication that they are looking at it very closely. They will not have much time to decide with the pension payment due so we should know their decision within 24 hours.

A painful time - all the best to the employees.


User currently offlineGSPITNL From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 374 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16100 times:

Quoting Pensacolaguy (Reply 5):
*Has DL ever filled for Chapter 11 protection?

No Delta has never filed Chapter 11 before. DL will not be here long as they are already showing strong signs of restructuring and will use Chp 11 to get down there debt and get back to making money

Quoting Matt D (Reply 9):
Every one of these airlines should be out of business. Their business models have failed. The companies are no longer solvent.

That is the most disgusting comment of the year. That is a very bad comment to make.



Fly Delta - The Only Way To Fly! Silver Medallion Baby :)
User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16067 times:

Matt, I just HAVE to ask. Where do YOU work?





OttoPylit


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16060 times:

Finally, no more "DL likely to file CH11 on XYZ"-articles by WSJ, AJC, NYT et all.
DL, just pull the tricks UA did, and everything will be fine.


User currently offlineAAgent From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 560 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16043 times:

Since bankruptcy seems to be such a popular and successful option of late, perhaps NW, CO and AA can go to the courthouse together and get some kind of group discount. This whole drawn out bankruptcy process that creates artificial advantages for failed carriers is making me sick.  ill 

Best Regards,
AAgent



War Eagle!
User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16022 times:

Quoting AAgent (Reply 7):
Now I suppose they'll be dumping their pension plan too.

That is correct sir!

My best friend in DC who works for the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) said that they have already received preliminary notice on Delta's pension program.



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineNYCAAer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 692 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15956 times:

Quoting AAgent (Reply 7):
Now I suppose they'll be dumping their pension plan too.

Most likely, AAgent- which makes it harder for other airlines not in Chapter 11 to compete. We at AA could be next- who knows?


User currently offlineYoungFlyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15871 times:

Sad day for delta and for of their passengers. Hope they can find a way to rebound but nowadays it just seems near impossible.
Dan



"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi
User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15826 times:

Quoting Matt D (Reply 9):
Every one of these airlines should be out of business. Their business models have failed. The companies are no longer solvent.

I know it would suck for the employees. But everywhere else in the private sector, it's a way of life. And besides, new carriers will spring from the ashes.

Go work there.

And the first thoughts through your head are "what about my seniority or my pension"?

Then YOU ARE PART of the problem.

It's that antiquated, old school mentality that has dragged on at least two decades too long that got the airlines in the mess they are in today.

Matt, in all the time I've been here, I've seen you post some pretty radical and different things.. However, recently they've been more and mroe disturbing. This has to be the worst post of the year, if not the decade (so far).. People NEED the pensions, they WORKED For them, and they've built their savings and retirement planes around them too.. Now, if they're gone, what are they supposed to do?? This is a TRAGIC thing if it were to happen.

That's so low man.. I never expected that kind of comment from you..

And before you talk about old school or antiquated, get rid of your reel-to-reel collection and all that stuff..

Chris

[Edited 2005-09-14 23:18:29]


Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlineAAgent From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 560 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15811 times:

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 17):
Most likely, AAgent- which makes it harder for other airlines not in Chapter 11 to compete. We at AA could be next- who knows?

Doesn't the whole thing just make you nauseous. There are going to be some rough skies ahead for all of the carriers operating outside of the protection of the bankruptcy club house. Best of luck to NW, CO and my fellow AA'ers.

Best Regards,
AAgent



War Eagle!
User currently offlineN471WN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15810 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

And Delta made the mistake of all old line companies---they scoffed at their competition and demeaned ValuJet......instead of changing their business model, they exemplified the definition of insanity which is: "keep doing things the same way and expect different results." No longer can they be arrogant as their passengers continue to vote with their feet in Atlanta by getting off the train at Terminal C and making a right turn.....This is a great American story--how little ValuJet and now Air Tran brought down the mighty Delta fortress in Atlanta........do not respond in this thread with the other factors as I know them---but one factor was a little airline that figured it all out while Delta missed the opportunity to do so.....we call that TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS!!!

User currently offlinePITA333 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 391 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15786 times:

I just got word of this on the local TV news station, KDKA. I can't put what I want to say in any other way so I'll just say it; "This just sucks!". I hope that DL can prevail on top in the end. Good luck and godspeed DL and all DL employees. I know that most of a.net stands behind you.

Regars,
PITA333


User currently offlineMikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1398 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15782 times:

And in related news...

The sky really has fallen

Good luck DL!



I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15765 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 13):
Matt, I just HAVE to ask. Where do YOU work?

Ditto, what a jerk. My mother works for Delta and I am pissed.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
25 Matt D : Below the belt or not below the belt. It's irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that in todays global outsourcing environment, people need to get it
26 Post contains links MAH4546 : From the geniuses at the Miami FOX affiliate, who apparently know something we don't: ATLANTA -- Song, the low-fare carrier of Delta Air Lines Inc., f
27 Panamair : Yeah, and if the shoe were on the other foot, AA would be there in a heartbeat. You want to blame Ch. 11 for pension dumping, etc., look no further t
28 AAgent : It sounds almost as if you're happy about Delta filing for bankruptcy. Yuck!
29 Keesje : I was staggered when Delta reported a loss of $5.2 billion for 2004. When things didn´t get better this seemed un-avoidable. My sympathy goes to all
30 Gigneil : Why? He's absolutely right. They are failed, insolvent businesses. Now I don't agree they should be vaporized. That wouldn't be in the interest of th
31 Matt D : There is a distinction that needs to be drawn between being happy that an airline is bankrupt versus simply calling a spade a spade. Too many of you d
32 Nicksair : GOOD NIGHT NOW!!!!! NWR
33 Post contains links BNAflyer78 : I posted this in another thread, but in related news: http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...14+14-Sep-2005+RTRS&srch=northwest NW filed as well.
34 COERJ145 : Not good for DL, they are my #2 airline. Hopefully they'll pull through it. Good luck DL!!!!
35 A350 : It's a sad day for aviation, indeed. A few months ago, I was so happy to see Delta here in Berlin, and now Delta who stayed afloat when so many others
36 AAgent : Well, horse puckey...there goes the group discount. Best Regards, AAgent
37 LMP737 : Good luck to all the Delta employees out there. Hopefully everything will work out for you guys. Well MattD since you seem to have it all figured out
38 EA CO AS : Preliminary notice as a "heads-up" from the government that DL MAY want to jettison their pensions, or actual preliminary notice FROM DL saying they'
39 STLGph : It's true. The business models are failing. US Airways Northwest Airlines Trans World Airlines Delta Air Lines Independence Air American Trans Air Pa
40 Aa757first : Two real world business examples that destroy your theory are Continental and America West. Continental filed for Chapter 11 protection twice and, si
41 Matt D : And before you talk about old school or antiquated, get rid of your reel-to-reel collection and all that stuff. apples and oranges my friend.
42 VS747SPUR : Very sad news for Delta. Im not too sure what chapter 11 involves though (I only know the basics). When can Delta exit ch11 ?
43 AAgent : The very fact that Delta has been investigating this as an option would suggest that it's something they are interested in pursuing. Best Regards, AA
44 OttoPylit : I normally wouldn't respond to something this pathetic, but one thing caught my eye. How little Airtran brought down the Delta fortress in ATL? How p
45 NYCAAer : Yes, it does. I don't get the Chapter 11 process when it's used for competitive purposes. Although I do think Delta was desperately trying to hold ou
46 Cgnnrw : I don't know you but I don't like you and you are a real jerk. Hmmm, someone works for a company for 30 years and when the company they work for goes
47 Gr8SlvrFlt : Let me ask you something. Delta may be in bankruptcy now, but WHO has more flights in ATL than anyone else and can continue to add flights? Who has re
48 Usairways16bwi : its a very bad thing...never flown NW, but i did DL once and it was great. just a question, what will happen to Song? Metrojet was shut down when US c
49 Scooter : Why is everyone trashing MattD for his comments? He speaks the truth, and if you are offended by that...well, you need to toughen up. This is BUSINESS
50 Roger136913 : I have a flight out of Bos to Las on 11-6-05 and a return on Song 11-11-05. Would I be able to get a refund if I bought the ticket through Delta direc
51 AAgent : Sadly, with the benefit of the artificial advantages created by the bankruptcy courts on behalf of the failed carriers, we have entered into a time w
52 Airlinelover : You're stuck. But remember CH11 does NOT mean they are shutting down.. just reorganizing. Chris
53 Matt D : Where is the stupidty? A: Holding on to a piece of paper that says I am entitled to $$$ per month from a company that's no longer in business B: Holdi
54 Air380 : Okay, please help me understand why the legacy airlines in the US are failing? BA, for example or Lufthansa are a legacy airline and they made profits
55 Cgnnrw : So that means you lost EVERYTHING you saved over all the years you were working? Being laid off is not the same as seeing 30 years of savings go down
56 Dtwclipper : For shame, for shame. You as a member of this aviation community are truly behaving like....well I can't say it without being banned!
57 Prebennorholm : I'm sorry for those DL employees who may lose their pension. But that whole pension system is sick. It would never be legal in my country. My company
58 GSPITNL : I agree AAgent, People on these forums really have some issues. They need to get respect for all of this and quit thinking that its all a game. He is
59 Eilennaei : The fact of the matter is that in todays global outsourcing environment, people need to get it through their heads that any job security is over. And
60 Midway2AirTran : Everyone must be suprised about this one. (sarcasm) Maybe it'll present some more opportunities for the more efficent carriers to take routes DL decid
61 Scooter : Yes, I lost everything I had (and then some) ALL 3 times. As sick as it sounds, I'm better for the experience. I have NO sympathy for those who put t
62 Matt D : If this happened in any other industry, every one of you would be saying the exact same "BS" you are accusing me of. You know it. And I know it. So cu
63 Post contains images COEWR : Chapter 7 is liquidation. Chapter 11 is protection. So in reference to your ticket, they will still be operating business as usual. Don't worry about
64 VV701 : Are these 'artificial advantages' the reason why so many American airlines file in the first place - an easier route than developing a successful rev
65 GSPITNL : Votes for Jerk of the year??? Anyone??? NW and DL in Chapter 11 in 1 day and your sitting here saying that its there own fault that there pensions wh
66 ContnlEliteCMH : What ignorance do you think Matt D is displaying? Let me ask the question another way: of which facts do you think Matt D is not in possession, there
67 Matt D : ContnlEliteCMH: Thank you for seeing the truth for what it is. welcome to my RUL.
68 Cgnnrw : I don't work for DL or any airline.... So please tell me about the big picture.....I would love to learn something from a terd like you..... So when
69 Aa777jr : How many employees they gonna lay off when they reorganize? Would they merge with NW like another thread on here stated and come out of Chp 11 togethe
70 GSPITNL : I personally think at this point, it would be a good situation for a DL/NW merger. Would create the worlds largest airline and there fleet would have
71 PanAm92 : Chapter 11 does not mean shutting down. Just look at United and US Airways. It unfortunately does mean layoffs, routes cut, getting out of leases, and
72 Pope : Why's everyone jumping all over MattD. He's spoken the truth. The US Bankruptcy Code is nothing but an anticompetitive crutch for companies who the ma
73 Eyeonthesky17 : This is a fearful day for many of the employees of DL and NW (as well as others). I happen to be the fortunate position of being young and have option
74 Gearup : Matt D may have used some strong language and I don't believe he meant to insult anyone but the fact is, he is correct. A lot of American industries (
75 FlyPNS1 : Not totally true. You complain about BK being a crutch for Delta, but you ignore the fact that DL had to compete against BK carriers (UA/US) for year
76 N471WN : The "Pope" has spoken and he is right on---Again I say it is all about TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS and some do (e.g. Air Tran) and some do not (Delta). No
77 Pope : I agree. But the answer can't be to continue a system that we all agree props up failing enterprises. DL hadn't shown a profit since 2000. Immediatel
78 Cgnnrw : But if that man was told for 30 years to pay into a pension plan and he did because the company and government encouraged him to and one day he reads
79 ContnlEliteCMH : This was obviously Chapter 11 Freudian slip. Of course, the famous quote is "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
80 Commavia : I don't know if I'd lump AA into this category. Clearly -- the plan UA, NW and DL have been operating under hasn't been working, which is why all thr
81 ContnlEliteCMH : That would suck. And it's wrong. We, (read: the American taxpayer) will ensure that these pensioners get some if not most of what they are promised.
82 Pope : Please don't write checks from my checkbook.
83 LMP737 : Could you please clarify which airlines should be out of business? All the "legacy" carriers or just the ones in Chapter 11.
84 Prebennorholm : I think I can tell you: Those legacy carriers, who in time adopted the "no frills" business plan, will run a healthy business. The rest will be gone.
85 Gearup : Yes of course, good point!
86 Post contains images EA CO AS : If this photo from CNN is any indication, it's because they're still flying DC-8s...
87 Post contains images Comorin : Pope, I thought you lived in the Vatican! You are not liable for US taxes unless you're Omnipresent ...
88 Boeing7E7 : Comments like this make you sound like a clown. Delta is the least Unionized most outsourced major carrier.[Edited 2005-09-15 01:52:00]
89 BAxMAN : I don't think anybodyt would wish any bad to fall upon the employees of DL or NW, but these companies are hurting their competitors who struggle to re
90 LeDragon : For how long on Chapter 11 ? A member asked for specifics about Chapter 11. I would also like to know more about it. I only know few things about Air
91 Derik737 : Delta is not the most outsourced carrier by far. Delta TechOps (if separated from Delta) is most likely profitable. Delta has a vast amount of shops,
92 LMP737 : You forgot to mention Air France in the mid 90's.
93 Boeing7E7 : Remember 7.5??? Apparently not.
94 UAcosCS : Do you think this is a game? Do you think they have been trying to lose money just to go through the Bk process?
95 YULWinterSkies : Unfortunately a very true comment by Matt D. Sad but true. I know who should feel guilty for this: all the people looking for the cheapest deal ever,
96 Commavia : A few quotes I found interesting from the press release: Despite doing everything it could to preserve its liquidity, Delta has determined that it has
97 Thelowfarehero : It's ashame DL has to resort to B.K. Such a great airline. Why can't this be AA.....I would love to see them sink!
98 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: Ohio News Network Comair Included In Bankruptcy Filing http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=3851942&nav=LQlCeXSn NBC reported earlier t
99 Boeing7E7 : From the filings, it appears DL is looking for the "flexibility" to shudder the following leased aircraft as needed to reduce the fleet: ATR-72's were
100 Jetdeltamsy : At last the process has begun. I've worked for Delta since 1991. I'm glad the process has begun. I was hired from Pan Am. I speak a few languages and
101 Commavia : Boeing7E7 -- where is the filing that discusses DL's general plans and fleet plans?
102 AAgent : Quite the contrary. It's clearly not a game, but it has now become apparent to many that the bankruptcy process has become the preferred method of a
103 Incitatus : Good luck with your stash of currency. Have you ever heard of inflation? Anybody who loses their life savings to inflation is going to eat dog food w
104 Post contains images 777PURSER : I guess somehow AA is doing things better..for now anyways...sorry HA!
105 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : You have to have access to a business journal. They have links on the DL site, but they don't lead anywhere. The titles make it pretty clear though.
106 Post contains images EA CO AS : What I was asking was if the notice came FROM DL, or FROM SOMEONE IN THE GOVERNMENT warning that DL might go the same way UA did. Not entirely accura
107 PyroGX41487 : Honestly? MattD has the right idea. If seniority programs and crap are dragging the airline under, then they out-right deserve to be filing Ch11. Airl
108 Galapagapop : Now I may not say they should all be obliterated as fuel has a been the new thorn for everyone including profitable ventures such as WN and B6 (altho
109 WDBRR : Maybe Delta will dump Song....I really don't care for it. it seems like a phony Jetblue imitation and I hate the colors and name.
110 Post contains links NAV20 : My sympathies and best wishes to anyone who is personally affected by this. Unfortunately they may not be the only ones - there is likely to be a rush
111 Max Q : Read through 'Matt D's' postings with amusement. I wonder how many airline's he has worked for or....maybe he couldn't get hired at one. Another armch
112 LongbowPilot : I'm not a major financing guru, nor do I presume to know the way of the airline industry... But Mattd, your comments are accurate, CRASS, but accurate
113 Mariner : Speaking of crutches. If fuel prices are the problem, why aren't AA and CO on the courthouse steps? cheres mariner
114 Boeing7E7 : Maybe it has to do with heavy O&D at key hubs for both AA and CO (ie ORD where there's plenty to go around for AA and UA and EWR). Much of the O&D at
115 1MillionFlyer : YES...we have a safety net in the US that will pay them some of their pension! They will not lose 100% of their pension Everyone in a company makes u
116 LongbowPilot : Mariner, Watch the news brother. Cheers yourself
117 STLGph : Apparently the tax doesn't matter much if traffic levels are still up beyond pre 9-11 levels, and are still up despite higher fares being charged to
118 Devil505x : And how the HELL does USAirways pull off what they do!!! Well Good Luck Delta and NWA
119 Mariner : I do watch the news. What particular aspect did you have in mind? What Mr. Grinstein says, perhaps? I note that Mr. Grinstein has vowed to stay on du
120 1MillionFlyer : This industry is not immune from normal business processes...you need to get the clue, Matt D is right.
121 United787 : This is one of the more intelligent posts I have seen. There are many of us Americans, especially the type that will blindly defend Boeing and bash A
122 Post contains images N751PR : Gotta love the file footage local news networks have. KCAL 9's segment on the DL bankruptcy included a shot of a L-1011-500. Anyhow I hope they can pu
123 Post contains links Blasphemystic : Heres the doccument. http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/delta/delta91405c11pet.pdf
124 Art : It may be a disgusting comment to you but can you explain why it disgusts you? You seem to be suggesting that unviable airlines have a god given righ
125 Litz : What is interesting is ALL of the MD11s and 732s listed in the document are no longer in delta's active fleet. Every single one of the 732s is either
126 Post contains links Eilennaei : me2 that: -- read all about a system under here http://www.etk.fi/default.asp?lang=2
127 Commavia : DL still flies plent of 737-200s in active service.
128 Post contains images MarshalN : I thought she was hiding till 10/17 to tell us we were all wrong to say DL would file I'm so mean
129 Post contains links Xkorpyoh : she doesnt exist anymore http://www.airliners.net/discussions/profile.main?username=Padcrasher hidding somewhere? DL is my favorite airline but Padcr
130 B2707SST : This kind of thinking got Pan Am into big trouble, and eventually into Chapter 7. "Too big to fail" has been proven false in history too many times t
131 MarshalN : I think the failure of one or two of the weakest legacies will substantially strengthen the rest of the industry as it removes excess capacity, perhap
132 Post contains links 1millionflyer : Then again Finland is home to the 103,000 USD speeding ticket http://www.thebatt.com/media/paper65...Egalitarian.Instincts-517672.shtml that's a grea
133 Paddy78 : I knew this thread would turn ugly if NW and DL filed, so my $.02 for the night... Pensions are dying out, those of you out there who are still clingi
134 OPNLguy : " target=_blank>http://www.airliners.net/discussions...asher Given her previous "DL-can't-possibly-file-bankruptcy" position, I think she was embarass
135 777ER : Oh dear, hope DL survives and is able to fly the worlds skys for many more years. Best of luck to all employees
136 Donder10 : Providing two examples out of many hardly debunks Matt's theory.The fact is the industry has failed to cover its cost of capital alone without any re
137 Panamair : I agree that that kind of thinking is not going to save an airline. But we often forget that by the time both PA and EA headed for CH.7. they were fo
138 Post contains images Silver1SWA : Wow... With this Delta news, and that damn hurricane that decided to spin in place for a whole week (seriously, since when do hurricanes do this???) b
139 Eilennaei : To whom it may concern. Bbcnews.com: "In 2002, Mr Vanjoki's 116,000 euros fine was reduced by no less than 95% due to his drop in income following a
140 Dstc47 : My condolences to all Delta people worldwide. Not all of you were nice to me over the years but a good number were. Good luck and thanks.
141 Coa764 : Isn't it is easy to toss out such empty statements without backing them up with some kind of fact, remember when a person refrains from making such d
142 Positiverate : You're an idiot. These are people's livelihoods you're talking about.
143 NorCal : What are the chances that Delta will survive, and what happens to the stock during Chapter 11? I've always had good experiences on Delta and I wish th
144 Gritzngravee : Can either of these carriers take away frequent flier miles from customers? In other words say we need to save money so no free rides.
145 Gritzngravee : Why is everyone so shell shocked? We live in a capitalistic society, money before people, therefore if the CEO's of COO's bankrupt a company it's not
146 Flydl2atl : Jerry Grinstein at Delta did forego a bonus. He also cut his salary in half to 250K.
147 Commavia : Panamair, respectfully, I completely disagree. AA has perhaps made more fundamental changes to their business model than any other legacy carrier --
148 SBN580 : I was very sorry to hear that Delta has gone into Ch.11. But you have to say, considering the financial situation they had to deal with, they did just
149 Slider : That is a critical point- DL didn't adapt the way it should have as early as it should have. Also, they've had a revolving door of (largely) incompet
150 Commavia : I highly doubt it. Everybody said that three years ago when UA filed -- AA would be forced to in order to compete. P.S. -- three years later -- UA is
151 Okie : Slider you bring up a good point. UA, NW, DL, US will all be facing different judges. One judge could force quick exits and good business plans while
152 Slider : I concur- it all depends on what happens with the pension thing really. That's the proverbial white elephant in the room.
153 Gritzngravee : Flydl2atl, thanks for educating me, I wish more guys like Grinstein would do that, he's clearly the minority in this case.
154 Zone1 : You forgot removing MRTC.
155 LMP737 : It's rather easy to say that these airlines should be out of business and just leaving it at that. The first question I would ask of MattD is he refe
156 Positiverate : Man...all the idiots are out today.
157 Gritzngravee : 1millionflyer, it appears you haven't looked at our own countries tax laws that our great President and his cronies have changed. (IRS tax code book g
158 Lono : Padcrasher..???
159 Positiverate : Go ask UA and USAir's people how well that system worked. 8 cents on the dollar is not a good return on your pension.
160 Positiverate : Ha...no.
161 AAgent : The really disgusting thing is that if bankrupt carriers were allowed to fail as the free market dictated, then we wouldn't be in a position of havin
162 Matt D : All of the above begs the one question that no one has dared approach: If our economy is "that great", then why have personal BK's also skyrocketed? S
163 LongbowPilot : I think we can all agree on this, MattD is seriously misinformed and does not have the slightest clue about airlines, or what it takes to run them. If
164 Commavia : Not really, at least IMO, if I'm understanding your point. AA's "traditional" defined-benefit pensions are, at least in the government's eyes, highly
165 Devil505x : I do not have a business degree but if you own or operate a business isnt the goal to make a profit of some kind? Why can't these airlines do this? I
166 Scooter : Uh, since when does a company that's bleeding cash have a god-given right to stay in business? Simply put, they failed, and they shouldn't be allowed
167 Litz : Oh sure ... I just wasn't very clear ... the specific MD11s, and 732s listed in the document were all planes DL has retired. Of the 732s in that list
168 ContnlEliteCMH : Is it possible that Arpey *can't* say anything else? I guess I'm saying that I hear him say that, but I don't really believe it. I'm glad their pensi
169 Post contains images Coa764 : And your think a pilot does (aka: United Airlines ) While MattD's point might be course in the way it is presented the guy has a point. Step back for
170 Commavia : If I understand you correctly, they already have done this. AA no longer offers a pension plan to new employees. Their DB plan was phased out on Janu
171 N766UA : Just got the memorandum today. Looks like Delta and the subsidiaries have filed for Chapter 11, however employee pay/schedules/benefits will remain un
172 Slider : Personal fiscal irresponsibility, living off credit, and what you said- living beyond means. No real trick to figure that out, really... Precisely CM
173 Post contains links ZSOFN : I can see why Matt D has caused a stir around here and offence among DL employees and sympathisers, however he has simply been putting forward the cas
174 Devil505x : Ok but I thought US was the weakest! Now this
175 ZSOFN : Fair enough, so did I! But a merger in this case was a GREAT decision. That way overall capacity can be reduced whilst there is greater freedom for a
176 LongbowPilot : Like I have stated, tell me why they shouldn't. The business model did not fail, fuel prices are too high, and the airline should be allowed the abil
177 LongbowPilot : Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't boardings exceeding pre 9/11 loads?
178 ZSOFN : You're not wrong in terms of numbers, but: The number of carriers and aircraft has increased too Fare prices and price expectations have dropped sign
179 Devil505x : It sure sounds good but it seems to never happen. I guess a bankruptcy judge will believe anything
180 Scooter : An act of god and the inability to run a successful business are two entirely different things.
181 LongbowPilot : The number of carriers have increased and the legacy carriers are introuble, but it is their right to go into ch 11 and attempt to recover. the "chapt
182 ZSOFN : I guess we'll see. I do believe however that a well-planned merger will do better in the long-term as it is a decision that does not clash with the c
183 ZSOFN : For me the question is whether an airline should be helped to recover when it can't be sustained in a market that does not have the capacity. For ins
184 Blrsea : You are comparing apples and oranges here. The people of NO weren't responsible for the hurricane or the devastation it caused. Many of these compani
185 ZSOFN : Blrsea, well put - I totally agree. There are plenty of profitable airlines out there after all. 9/11 did affect the industry but in itself was not en
186 LongbowPilot : 9/11 wasn't the airline's fault either, and after the initial travel scare (boarding dropped) and then when boarding increased fuel joined the climb.
187 Scooter : Then why are AA, B6, CO (and others) doing well in this same environment? They all went through the same exact shit that DL, NW, US and UA did.
188 FlyPNS1 : Since when is losing $800 million annually considered to be doing well because that is AA's projected loss for 2005? How about CO which is projecting
189 AirRyan : AP article just today speculating how if DL and NW come out of this Ch11 like UA and US did today, they will be extremely difficult to compete with b
190 ZSOFN : We're talking about businesses here. There's no comparison of that sort. Market environments change, demand falls, therefore so must supply. That's n
191 LMP737 : If that logic were true then it would mean UAL an UA should be kicking everyone's teeth in right about now.
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