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Speculation On DL/NW Merger  
User currently offlineFlydl2atl From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 119 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11735 times:

In light of the recent bankruptcy filings by DL and NW, it seems like a good time to speculate on a possible merger. The fact that they both filed on the same day seems more than coincidental.

One of the biggest obstacles to overcome is their huge differences in fleets. Delta has:

Type Number (Owned / Leased) Orders/Options

737-200 6/34
737-300 0/21
737-800 71/0 51/60
757-200 77/44
767-200 14/0
767-300 4/24
767-300ER 50/9 0/10
767-400ER 21/0 0/21
777-200 8/0 5/20
MD-11 0/3
MD-88 63/57
MD-90 16/0
FRJ-328 0/30
ATR-72 4/8
CRJ 115/128 19/114
CRJ-700 62/0 0/110

Total: 869 Planes

Northwest has:

A319 62/12 7/0
A320 43/35 2/0
A330-200 7/0 5/0
A330-300 10/0 10/0

787 0/0 18/0
757-200 32/24
757-300 16/0
747-200 3/2
747-400 4/12
DC9 141/4
DC10 13/7
RJ85 10/25
CRJ 0/137 17/0
SAAB 0/49

Total: 652


Delta's CEO, Jerry Grinsein, has talked of the need for fleet simplification. He's stated that the ideally Delta would just have two planes - one for short-haul and one for long haul. I interpreted this to mean the 737 and the 787. If a merger were to take place between NW and Delta it would likely take a few years or more to fully integrate the companies. However, right off the bat they could probably consolidate their route structures enough to immidiately eliminate the MD88/90, DC-9, or A319/320. By the end of three years, I'm sure they could get down to 4-5 different aircraft types.

It seems that labor issues would be the biggest hurdle. With Delta being mostly non-union and NWA being mostly union it might be difficult to overcome this. Anybody have any ideas?

Also with the America West/US Air...America West is sort of buying USAir...i.e the new mgmt will come more from AmericaWest than USAir. In the case of DL/NW would we be more likely to see DL mgmt running the show or NW mgmt running the show (or GE mgmt running the show  Smile )?

108 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

Bet on system smoothing and fleet simplifcation, not on a merger.

User currently offlineF27XXX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11708 times:

Its a ridiculous speculation.

The only thing they have in common at all is the 757 (and a cpl MD80s at NW). Literally everything else is different!

Besides what would they need with hubs so close in CVG, DWA Transworld Airlines (USA)">TW and MSP
and then again in ATL and MEM? Remember when AA had DFW, BNA and RDU ? WHich one is still with us? And US having CLT BWI PHL PIT and DAY after the PI merge?

This is dumb. Besides - - Northwest get rid of a DC9 !??! Never in a million years (and thats prob not too far frm the truth!)

Just stirrin the pot a little is all .. in reality theyre both great airlines with great people working very hard and they both deserve to survive on their own!! We've already lost so many of the classics (PA,EA,TW, WA) .. no more!

OK tomorrow i'll switch to decaf .. i'm done ranting now!  gnasher 

Tony


User currently offlineFlydl2atl From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11675 times:

Quoting F27XXX (Reply 2):
Besides what would they need with hubs so close in CVG, DWA Transworld Airlines (USA)">TW and MSP
and then again in ATL and MEM? Remember when AA had DFW, BNA and RDU ? WHich one is still with us? And US having CLT BWI PHL PIT and DAY after the PI merge?

Well, the most logical thing to do would be to completely close the Memphis hub. Same goes for CVG....Delta is already talking about downsizing it now. There would be cost saving in being able to close these hubs and rolling them into ATL and MSP/DTW.


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11612 times:

Delta's liabilities - $27B
NW liabilities - $17B

Combined Liabilities - $44B
Combined Net Worth -MINUS $ 8.3B


These numbers won't go away significantly even with Ch11, and are the problem with DL/NW merging.

I would think an acquisition for $1, by another airline, severely pruned, is more likely.


User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11606 times:

Quoting F27XXX (Reply 2):
The only thing they have in common at all is the 757 (and a cpl MD80s at NW).

NWs Mad Dogs have been gone for sometime now. Scrapped I believe.


User currently offlineLUVRSW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11580 times:

Is XJ and 9E safe in any reorginization?

User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11535 times:

We were chatting about this possibility earlier.. and as I speculated, I think there would be one big loser in any NW/DL merger - ATL.

The ATL hub's strengths right now are north-south connections along the east coast, connecting the west with the south, and the international flights. But the competitive landscape has changed north-south flying (particularly Florida) and transcons significantly.. Plus, most of the ATL European flights could be moved to JFK or DTW.. the Asian flights to MSP or SEA. This would make for quicker travel times for most. Not to mention it'd shorten most transoceanic segment lengths..

But the biggest reason to downsize ATL? It's insane to assume you can run over 1,000 flights a day consistently from one airport. One little thunderstorm and you've got a TON of missed connections....

As IAH is to CO, so should ATL be to DL/NW..


User currently offlineFlydl2atl From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11456 times:

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 7):
But the biggest reason to downsize ATL? It's insane to assume you can run over 1,000 flights a day consistently from one airport. One little thunderstorm and you've got a TON of missed connections....

I totatlly agree on this. On a good weather day, Atlanta works fine. On a bad weather day, it's an absolute mess. I kind of think that DL's goal in strengthening ATL was to keep AirTran at bay. This move has forced AirTran to try and expand elsewhere.


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1891 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11435 times:

I don't think they are going to merge, however, this could be more than a coincidence. Let's see what happens.

PS. Imagine a DL 744!

Greetings!



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11420 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11384 times:

A few of my thoughts ...

Network

If you just laid the Delta route map on top of the Northwest route map, and don’t look at anything else but this new combined route map, this merger makes pretty good sense. The networks – particularly the international networks – are highly complimentary.

Delta is very strong across the Atlantic, has a relatively strong presence in Central America and the Caribbean, and a minimal but legitimate presence in South America, whereas Northwest’s network is heavily focused on Asia. Domestically, the network is a bit less complimentary, and some of the hubs are a bit redundant, but that could be easily consolidated. Memphis would likely give way to Atlanta, as it serves no real network purpose not satisfied by Atlanta, and Cincinnati would likely be replaced by Detroit, which serves a larger O&D network and has more modern facilities.

Ultimately, I could definitely foresee a combined Delta-Northwest network with four continental U.S. hubs – in Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis and Salt Lake City – plus major U.S. focus cities in New York JFK, New York LaGuardia and Orlando. Internationally, Amsterdam would maintain its focus for the U.S.-Europe network, providing onward connections to India, and Tokyo would remain the primary Asian connecting hub.

Fleet

The fleet integration of any Delta-Northwest merger would make the network synergies look pretty insignificant. Northwest’s and Delta’s fleets are almost completely incompatible.

Delta’s predominantly Boeing fleet (with some McDonnell Douglas MD80s and MD90s mixed in) doesn’t exactly “blend” with Northwest’s almost completely Airbus fleet (with many Douglas DC9s). Delta’s wide bodies are all Boeing – mostly 767s, and a few 777s – while Northwest operates a varied mix of Boeing 747s, 787s (soon enough), McDonnell Douglas DC10s, and Airbus A330s.

Any integrated airline would perhaps choose to focus on either Airbus or Boeing for its short haul network – I’m guessing it would be Airbus A319/A320/A321 – and either Airbus or Boeing for its long haul network – I’m guessing Boeing 747/767/777/787.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9302 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11251 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
Cincinnati would likely be replaced by Detroit, which serves a larger O&D network and has more modern facilities.

Have you been to Cincinnati???!?!?!?!?!?!??!!!!!!!?!??!

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
Ultimately, I could definitely foresee a combined Delta-Northwest network with four continental U.S. hubs – in Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis and Salt Lake City – plus major U.S. focus cities in New York JFK, New York LaGuardia and Orlando

Yes, let's keep our extra capacity problems afloat by having too many hubs and focus cities.

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 7):
Plus, most of the ATL European flights could be moved to JFK or DTW.. the Asian flights to MSP or SEA. This would make for quicker travel times for most. Not to mention it'd shorten most transoceanic segment lengths..

But the biggest reason to downsize ATL? It's insane to assume you can run over 1,000 flights a day consistently from one airport. One little thunderstorm and you've got a TON of missed connections....

You're talking about weather problems in Atlanta but want to move European operations to Detroit?!



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11037 times:

A NW and DL merger makes no sense at all. Financially, aircraft commonality, hub airports - it would be an absolute disaster. Besides who the heck would back the billions needed to pull it off. I still can't believe UA and HP/US have gotten as much money as they have despite the industries terrible condition!

User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 870 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10962 times:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 11):
You're talking about weather problems in Atlanta but want to move European operations to Detroit?!

Detroit doesn't experience many weather delays despite contrary belief. DTW may be located in a cold climate, but the average amount of snow we have in one winter is far less than is believed. We are not affected by lake affect snow either. In the past, there have been some major weather impacts, usually one per year, but it's not a daily event during the summer around 4pm. Also DTW's is designed to be efficient and convenient. It has been discussed that the city's location is not the best for transatlantic flights, but nor does CVG's. With the combined efforts of DL and NW, JFK could become a slightly different hub as well. With more gate space, daily flights from all the major markets could fly to JFK and several international flights, but it wouldn't be the backbone to the domestic or international route structure.

DTW does have a bigger O&D market (5.7 million in the metropolitan area, and then include Toledo and we're almost at 7million), but if the merger were to become a possibility, I would place money that CVG would become at least a focus city, or a minimized hub. (The facilities are pretty modern and Proctor and Gamble does need an airport). I could see many of international flights from CVG move to DTW, and probably many of the regional ones too, but I wouldn't rule out the mainline destinations. If the two were to merge, you would probably still see daily departures from each airport to every major destination in the US.

Hubs after the merger: ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP, SLC,
Focus cities: CVG, IND, MKE, SEA, (MEM?), (DFW?)



LH 442
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10919 times:

Why would merging two airlines in this vein help?


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4315 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10901 times:

An excerpt from this morning's Wall Street Journal:

"Even before the virtually simultaneous bankruptcy filings by Delta and Northwest, some investors speculated that the two carriers could wind up merging with the help of a private-equity firm. Their route networks have little overlap, and Delta's dominance on trans-Atlantic flights would complement Northwest's strength in Asia. Delta and Northwest officials declined to comment."



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineNWDC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10756 times:

As i mentioned earlier, i believe both carriers "will" merge. Robert NWDC10

User currently offlineQuestAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10712 times:

IF these two airlines were to megre, under whose name would they fly? We have two VERY historic airlines - both go back to the twenties. HP's been around since the 80s, and the US Airways moniker is much more recent.

Or would a DL/NW combo come up with a brand new name altogether?



'Do we carry rich people on our flights? Yes, I flew on one this morning and I�m very rich.' - Michael O'Leary
User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10685 times:

Although they are many differences between both carriers (fleet, labor issues, etc) everybody agrees that consolidation is the only way out in the U.S. right now.

Perhaps CH11 is a good step forward for this two? Time will say


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10685 times:

Oh wait, they both have Pratt powered 757-200's. That's enough fleet commonality for me - it's a done deal!!!

seriously though - the combined airline would have 177 P&W 752's....

...pretty impressive!

after that it just absolutely ugly:

NW = D9S/319/320 narrow bodies
330/747 wide bodies

DL = 732/733/738/M88/M90 narrow bodies
763/764/777 wide bodies

MEM would need to bow to ATL
SLC would need to bow to MSP
CVG would need to bow to DTW

This would crush too many communities making federal approval difficult to say the least.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10632 times:

I've seen some analysts speak of this and combined with their opinions and that of my own, one thing more likely than any other is NW management will not succumb to even DL's - so if there is a merger DL would be bye-bye and the new airline would still be run by NW management in Eagan, Minnesota.

DL has a lot more debt than NW does and while I hope both climb out of this mess if I had to bet on just one NW would have my money.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10494 times:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 11):
Have you been to Cincinnati???!?!?!?!?!?!??!!!!!!!?!??!

The fact that most people would answer NO to that question should be some food for thought!

Take MEM and CVG away and there is a strong common network. The hardest part of an eventual merger would be to prune the fleet - they would have to spend several years with a mixed fleet. That could be mitigated by segregating types by hub.

Unfair to all this is CO, a well managed and prudent company, would be the loser. But who said business got to be fair?


User currently offlineBOSSAN From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10469 times:

It's possible to simplify operations without eliminating all fleet types but one. American, in particular, has been reducing the number of types that visit each of their hubs to simplify their spare parts planning and crew domicile placement.

Starting out as different companies, Delta and Northwest already have such a separation between their hubs. If they were to merge, I would not see them launching a large MD-88 operation out of Minneapolis to complement their DC-9 fleet, nor fly lots of DC-9s out of Atlanta. Future deliveries of 737-800s, A319/20s, A330s and 787s would allow them to retire DC-9s, MD-80s, 757s, 767s and DC-10s over time, going down to a smaller number of aircraft types. In future decades they could make an A vs B choice.

In addition, in bankruptcy the airlines can reject leases and park the remainder of small and old aircraft types: Delta's 737-200s, 737-300s, 767-300 non-ERs (overcapacity for domestic use now, not enough range for transatlantic), and MD-11s (ACA/FlyI is stuck with the FRJs) are largely leased, as are Northwest's Avro RJs. Delta's MD-90s and ATRs and Northwest's 747-200s are such small subfleets that they're likely to be parked as well. The DC-10s would likely continue flying for another year until enough A330s arrive, though they are now being parked even faster than planned. Overall capacity would be reduced by about 60 narrowbodies and 30 widebodies, but some of those are already parked in the desert.

The remaining aircraft each have niches: the 747-400 and 777-200 have long range and cargo uplift for trunk routes to the Tokyo hub, the 767s and A330s run European and thinner Asian routes. The 757s (thankfully all with P&W engines) can connect the hubs and do high-volume domestic runs as well as continuing to joust with jetBlue, with the A319/20s, 737-800s and MD-88s and DC-9s running medium-size spokes and the CRJs and Saabs running the regional routes. Moreover, having more types could save certain routes: I'd speculate that a combined Delta/Northwest might be able to run 2 JFK-NRT rotations with 3 777s, while 747s take over LAX-NRT.

Over a decade, the airline could reduce its own fleet via attrition to: 747-400, 777-200, A330-200 and -300, 787-3 and -8, 757-200 and -300, A319/20, 737-800, CRJ-100, -200 and -700, and one turboprop type, with each hub only operating some of those types -- likely one of A319/20 and 737-800 and one of A330 and 787 out of each hub, 747 and 777s only sent to and from Tokyo, and so forth. There are a couple of size gaps in between that could be filled, perhaps by contract EMB-170s and 190s that provide business class seats in the 70-125 seat gap and 737-900Xes in the 150-250 seat gap if the 757s are retired, but adjustments in frequency should allow for fewer larger subfleets to carry the passengers on each route.

In hub rationalization, CVG and MEM could be drawn down to focus cities with closer to 50% O&D, with RJs replacing some of the lost capacity out of the remaining hubs with the 737-200, 737-300 and RJ85 retirements. That would leave ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC as the domestic hubs. AMS, CDG and NRT would remain as important foreign connection points, and JFK, LGA, MCO, and BOS would likely keep some status as focus cities. The alliance combination between Air France-KLM and Delta-Northwest might happen by default, unless the DOJ steps in to actively prevent it, and politics might prevent that.

That said, the combined airline would need to figure out what its mission is. Is it to haul lots of people to Orlando for cheap? Is it to defend its fortress hubs? Is it to dominate transatlantic and transpacific routes? I'm not sure that it can do all of those things at once, especially with $60/bbl oil. They would be well-served by a long, hard look at the airline business and its future, to find out what types of service they can make a profit on in five to ten years.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10440 times:

Ugh, come on people. Think outside your tiny little boxes.

Commavia is right. The route network is perfect for merger (although honestly, I'm not sure MSP has that much of a place in the system in the interests of reduction).

CVG would, in fact, give way to DTW. SLC would be maintained (or sacrificed for MSP, who knows, both west/midwest hubs and MSP really isn't perfectly position for connecting traffic from anywhere but Washington and Maine).

The fleets are in fact large enough to be self sustaining:

The DC-9s and MD-80s would be a single fleet, and obviously be subject to rapid attrition. A huge fleet at that, and perfectly large enough to be self sustaining.

The A320 series at NW is the largest fleet of its kind in the world. Plenty big enough to generate economy of scale.

The 737 fleet at DL not quite so much. As the 732s and 733s go, the relatively small number of 738s at DL are an obvious target for attrition. Not any time in the immediate future, but I think this comparatively small subfleet would give way to the massive A320 fleet.

The 757 fleet would be the largest in the world. Pratt powered. Economy of scale satisfied.

Widebodies are a different story but still workable:

DL's tiny subfleet of 777s is obvious for grounding, especially since NW would handle Asia.
DL's 767 fleet is plenty large enough on its own, and NW has already opened the door for 787s i think that will be the migration path.
NW's A330 fleet will be pretty big, and is necessary for the company to complete its schedule, but I think would be the target of replacement by 787s

The 747 fleet is key to the Asian schedule, and with DL providing feed could even grow a bit with other PW powered used examples.


Anyway, that aside I agree the financials at both companies are precarious and there's no guarantee such a merger would work just due to debt load. However, the mechanics of the two operations are in fact quite compatible.

N


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10435 times:

I think the dual filing yesterday has no signifance to a merger of the two. A NW/DL merger would be nothing short of a disaster. Only bigger disaster would have been the proposed UA/US back in 2000.

Major overlap on the eastern 1/2 of the US - ATL DTW CVG MEM JFK
SLC and MSP would be overlap for the west
Major fleet issues
Both have a ton of old planes.

The only way I could conceivably see it, is to switch song to 738s (big expense incurred) then have A319/320 domestic narrowbody, 757 is lighter intl routes.

it is quote possible, probably likelt that BOTH DL AND NW will merge..Just not with eachother!!!

As if there hasnt already been enough merger specilation, ill add mine in for the heck of it

DL/CO
NW/UA

Legacies are transformign more and more to how we see INTL flag carriers like BA and AF, with a primary focus on INTL routes, with the domestics left to LCCs. I expect this to be a continuing trend here.

DL/CO primary flag carrier for the atlantic
UA/NW primary flag carreir for the pacific
AA general more broad flag carrier
US/HP im considering an LCC though with a limited intl presence.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
25 Gigneil : Actually, I want to add to my post but not edit it so that its noticeable. I think its clear, if not blatantly obvious, that the two are planning to m
26 N328KF : Garbage in, garbage out. That's what the concept of a DL/NW merger represents.
27 Post contains images SESGDL : No way. DL is MUCH better well known and carries many more passengers than NW. DL is also a much bigger carrier and is large in many huge business ma
28 DLPMMM : You guys are on the right track, but you have left out the wild card! They colsolidate their cases in a Manhattan court as Gigneil theorizes, but the
29 Blackearth : Wasn't Republic a larger airline than NWA when those two merged? Not saying that the merged airline would be called Northwest, but I'm not sure that
30 Burnsie28 : Technically NW is a Deleware company.... Oh really, you mean like the fact that NW is the oldest airline in the US operating under the same name, the
31 Gigneil : Technically they all are. The point is, you file where your headquarters is. You have no ground to stand on. Delta is a signficiantly larger airline
32 PVD757 : I just can't imagine overcoming the obvious hurdles in pairing these two up with one another... It would be a gigantic mish-mash of airplanes and hub/
33 STT757 : DL/NWA = CO/UAL
34 Post contains images PPVRA : I agree. DL needs to replace their norrowbody fleet of MDs soon anyways (IMO), so they might as well order a few more A320s with Airbus since NW alre
35 AirRyan : Not any more - that's all history now. They have nearly twice the debt that NW does for starters, NW will most likely emerge much sooner than DL, and
36 PVD757 : NWA said today that intends to return 13 aircaft immediately and has identified 102 more aircraft that they might "remove."[Edited 2005-09-15 22:19:23
37 UA772IAD : I don't think its that rediculous. DL is the 3rd largest US airline and NW takes fourth. DL's service area is stronger in the South, particularly the
38 Cdgdtw : Can anyone comment on the story that 5th freedom from Japan must be flown by UAL and the company called NWA? I'm asking because a combined company wou
39 Bobnwa : The rights were previously held by NWA and Pan AM so it must be OK to change the name.
40 Quickmover : "NWA said today that intends to return 13 aircaft immediately and has identified 102 more aircraft that they might "remove." Any idea what aircraft ty
41 STT757 : UAL bought those rights from Pan Am, so obviously they can be sold or transfered to another carrier.
42 Post contains images SESGDL : Who cares about Asia? It's America that counts buddy. Um.... I do recall NW also filing for bankruptcy, what, you don't think they're gonna downsize.
43 Midnights : Look for UA and DAL to talk about merging......
44 SESGDL : Where's this coming from? UA/DL would never get approved. They would control the US market in LA, San Francisco, Denver, Chicago, Atlanta, D.C., Orla
45 RedFlyer : Not necessarily crazy. They may have done it for expediency purposes. After all, I'm sure they share many of the same creditors so why not make it ea
46 Galapagapop : this undertaking would be on the scale of AA/TWA, but the biggest differecences are the little numbers of common fleets, close proximity of hubs, and
47 NWDC10 : "When" merged, i would keep all 757's, 319's, 320's,330's and 747's. I would use the 767's/777's till they can be replaced by A330's. I would keep MEM
48 Post contains images SATX : And I thought bankrupcy was 'nothing short of disaster'. Anyway, I'll throw my hat into the ring and say that I think NW+DL will eventually become on
49 Post contains images Slider : Fubar Airways? LOL! Gotta love threads like this. It's why the internet was created.
50 Post contains images Wdleiser : This merger will never happen. NWA will simply never get rid of the DC9's. Ever. If they have to.. they will have a 747 pull the DC9 through the air t
51 AirRyan : BUt you have to look at the numbers - DL filed because they had no choice - NW filed because it's taking a calculated risk. NW still had $1.5b cash o
52 NWDC10 : In addition BOTH names would be kept but it would be ran by NW. The 787's would be ordered to even possibly replace the 767's and the 777's would be r
53 Gigneil : The point of bankruptcy and merger is to rectify everything you mentioned. Not all the hubs would survive, nor all the focus cities, and certainly no
54 Checkraiser : I think some DL management would stay but it would be mostly NW execs calling the shots. I would be willing to bet that headquarters moves to Atlanta
55 Burnsie28 : So your saying that you saw someplace that they would remove about 1/4 of its fleet. LOL
56 PHXinterrupted : Quite a few people were saying the same thing prior to the America West/US Air merger.
57 NWDC10 : And i quote " I would use.....the 676's/777's till.....they can be replaced by A330's" Of course the older 767's would be replaced eventually with A33
58 Indy : My guess is that this will never happen. Forgetting equipment issues I think it will never get regulatory approval much like US/UA didn't. This is dif
59 Post contains links Derik737 : It took 11 minutes for you to quit LOL as observed by your first post in NW CH 11.....Shades Of Things To Come (by PhilSquares Sep 16 2005 in Civil A
60 Isitsafenow : You will have a better chance hitting the lottery this week then seeing DL and NW merge to one carrier. Nothing fits.....routes, fleet, labor headache
61 Kohflot : There's a laid back easy southern attitude at Delta?
62 Post contains images HunUtazo : ual will be merged into cal...
63 Milesrich : DL and NW are in Chapter 11 primarily, because unlike some of their competitors, they are having to buy all their fuel on the spot market with no long
64 Post contains images Commavia : Shhhhh ... don't tell DL that! [Edited 2005-09-16 03:24:20]
65 Wdleiser : If United and Delta ever merged.... what would their call sign be? DUAL? or UDAL?
66 DALOCCDtyDrctr : Northwest started out as Northwest Orient - to be exactly correct - and if you get real anal about it, they have completely changed their image to be
67 NASCARAirforce : Yes, but the Cincy terminal is about 10 years older than the DTW McNamara terminal, and it is smaller and it is true that DTW has a larger O and D ne
68 Lono : On the nail head... DL/NW merger would be the worst ever... simple math will prevail..... Yikes! the bottom line is too great!!!! A merger of these t
69 Carpethead : Over three years ago two airlines JAS & JAL decided to merge. Both airlines had a few PW powered 772s for fleet commonality. Since the merge what flee
70 Post contains links A330323X : I do think DL and NW are very likely to merge. But you're reading *way* too much into the choice of bankruptcy court. They could have filed basically
71 SESGDL : NW's also considerably smaller than DL. No they won't. Haven't you seen the recent parking of numerous DC-9s? There will be more of that, look for NW
72 MarkATL : As for fleet commonality, this is way down the list of issues in a merger. I realize for the industry enthusiasts and arm chair Monday morning CEOs ar
73 Post contains images Slcdeltarumd11 : MSP and SLC dont overlap they are 992 miles apart and MSP cannot be a western hub. No one is going to fly from san-sea via msp. With out SLC then the
74 Post contains links STT757 : http://biz.yahoo.com/usat/050916/13111095.html?.v=1
75 RedFlyer : They would not merge until AFTER they emerge from bankruptcy - without the weight of all the debt they are currently carrying. What exactly is the co
76 DLPMMM : I still think that both DL and NW be picked up out of Chapter 11 by CO. DL will shed some $10 billion in debt simply by cancelling their defined benef
77 Slider : Correction- to be exactly correct, NW started as Northwest Airways Sept 1926. Northwest Orient didn't initiate service until July 1947. Without getti
78 Slider : In a nutshell, for you chronology geeks... 1926- Northwest Airways begins 1936- Southern Airways created in GA, 1st flt in 1949. 1939- Four Wheel Driv
79 Isitsafenow : The word Orient was added to Northwest about 20 years after NW started business...thanks, Slider and Burnsie Delta started as a crop duster in Monroe
80 PlanesNTrains : While NW+DL may emerge together in some form, I think the often-speculated DL+CO would be a much better fit from a hub and fleet standpoint. Other tha
81 Post contains images Slider : Yup -1947. It's interesting too, being an airline geek, how the CAB, route authorities and such shaped the market for many carriers, NW being one of
82 AirRyan : The route was being operated by a 744 and was moved because load factors weren't as high as they liked due to a very competitive route. I wouldn't be
83 Alitalia744 : AirRyan - a little wound up cuz someone said bad about your beloved Northwest??? Awww. Here's a tissue.
84 DLPMMM : Complaining about the state of reality does not change that reality. Over 35% of DL's liabilities are from the discontinued defined benefit pension p
85 Gigneil : Its been pointed out a hundred times how the first two things fit. Perhaps you could add some analysis to your one liner? I agree, labor is a headach
86 Slider : That's your opinion. LF are high, revenues are up, yields are slowly starting to migrate north due to fare increases that are staying due to fuel pre
87 STT757 : While their fleets are complimentary, the expense and costs are not off-set by an improved network. First thing you would have to do is shut down one
88 Post contains images HunUtazo : it'll be: AMR/(nwac) CAL/(ual) SWA/(pieces dal)? Misc/lcc 'clipped'
89 Indy : They killed ATA, became the dominant carrier with a 25% share in the market and managed to eliminate an unnecessary connecting flight which of course
90 CO757bos2iah : I see us picking up aircraft or routes that someone may sell or come on the market right now. Again..why merge and take on added debt,after all the ta
91 AirRyan : We'll be out of Ch11 in 12 to 18 months, no tears here. I'm not sure if NW will continue taking all 23 A330's still on order but you can rest assure
92 Post contains images JFKLGANYC : I just find it funny how CVG has become the red-headed step child of Delta. I used to hear how great CVG was. Untouchable. Most profitable. JFK was th
93 HunUtazo : Sorry, cal is already engaged with fiancee...
94 Incitatus : There are three large premium traveler markets in the US: 1. New York, 2. Los Angeles, 3. Chicago. The rest is minor league. An airline simply does n
95 AirRyan : I'd add DFW to that list, Texas and in particular the DFW metro area is growing expoentially.
96 DLPMMM : That is the exact point. CO will not have to pick up all the debt. CO will be able to pick up all the routes, planes, and hubs it wants from DL and N
97 Isitsafenow : GIGNEIL...I would be happy to add on to my world famous one-liners. I wrote a column in college using one liner"brain-teasers". I guess it stuck, eh?
98 ExFATboy : Northwest is a small player in the East - elimination of the MEM hub and perhaps some reductions at CVG would be more than enough to address any dome
99 STT757 : Actually I would put Houston near the top of that list, after NYC (43) Houston has the most Fortune 500 Companies (23). The oil companies are making
100 VuelingAirbus : lets make an easy calculation: together DL/NW have about 40 000 000 000 $ debt, so over 20 years 2 000 000 000 $ per year excluding interest topay bac
101 Klkla : You might be right, but one of Delta's main goals in the bankruptcy process is to convert as much debt as possible into equity. In other words the ho
102 Indy : Given CVG's proximity to DTW it would go as well. I think the regulators would expect it anyway. ATL, DTW and MSP would be nicely spaced out.
103 Incitatus : For domestic travel, yes. However, Texas has two cities: Austin and Houston. Dallas is an overgrown farm. Houston attracts a larger share of longhaul
104 NWAFA : Having been through two merger in my past - being in BK would be the cheapest and easiest way to merge. You take care of huge costs involved. Get both
105 Toxtethogrady : "One of the biggest obstacles to overcome is their huge differences in fleets." Yes - what an unholy mess THAT is. The only two airplanes the two carr
106 ZSOFN : I'm no expert but it would seem a likely scenario that DL would be acquired by AA. AA is in a better financial position with potential to now expand,
107 Toxtethogrady : "That's right! CO gets to shed all the debts and assets of DL and NW that they don't want in bankruptcy court and get all the goodies that are left in
108 STT757 : CO would rather forgo the comanality issue and merge with UAL for it's Heathrow and Narita hubs to compliment their Trans-Atlantic and CO Micronesia n
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