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DL Intl Routes In Danger After CH11?  
User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6946 times:

After the bankruptcy NW slashed some of its Intl flights if DL does the same thing what is a.netters speculation on which routes would be the first one to go?


Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6923 times:

I would almost think the international routes would be in less jeopardy than the domestics that go head to head with LCCs. Granted DL can't just up an quit NY-Florida, but you might see some cuts there.

User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1105 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6908 times:

I guess they will take a close look at their Latin America routes as well as their smaller stations in Europe.

User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6903 times:

I guess DL may have some problems with being awarded destinations with pending approval like JFKEZE.

Other than that I don't think DL should have any problems unless some equipment has to be reposed as part of CH11 (This a dark area for me since I don't know the status of DL's fleet)


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 3580 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6877 times:

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 2):
I guess they will take a close look at their Latin America routes as well as their smaller stations in Europe

Completely wrong. In their filing BK filing, they state that they plan to EXPAND their international flying while in Chapter 11. Why would DL reduce their international flying when it is one of the few areas that are profitable for them? The smaller stations in Europe use almost all contract labor, so there is very little fixed cost involved in these flights.

End of discussion.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6855 times:

They will expand international flying. IMO when flights are cut, plan on seeing most domestic flight reductions at CVG and SLC.

User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12881 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6816 times:

Indeed, increasing international flights, with a reduced domestic USA service base, seems to be the only route for the legacies now, including DL and NW. One could see more domestic smaller cities or city pairs served by lower cost subsidies, using >100 pax jets (depending on pilot contracts). Perhaps on might see the use of smaller a/c even internationally, (757's, even 737 with ETOPS revisions) to serve smaller non-USA cities with more non-stop/direct service from key hubs where possible. I would suspect that there will be a substantual reduction in the number of flights by DL going to from Florida from the northeastern USA and leaving it to either Song sub or to the LCC's. I would be willing to bet that NW will transfer a number of their cities to their Pinnicale sub.

User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6814 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 4):
End of discussion.

That's a bit drastic! Just relax...

As you said, the international routes are the only hope for DL right now so I really doubt anything will happen.

Having said that, I'm sure DL has some destinations where they loose money and may consider to cancel (latin or Europe) but since I don't work for DL I can't tell.

In addition to this I would imagine JFKEZE is in jeopardy


User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6809 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 4):
Completely wrong. In their filing BK filing, they state that they plan to EXPAND their international flying while in Chapter 11. Why would DL reduce their international flying when it is one of the few areas that are profitable for them? The smaller stations in Europe use almost all contract labor, so there is very little fixed cost involved in these flights.

End of discussion.

Easy there! I'm a DL Platinum Medallion, love to fly them but its not easy coming out of bankruptcy there might be cuts everywhere I didn't say the cuts on Intl will happen I said if and in case it happens where.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 2):
I guess they will take a close look at their Latin America routes as well as their smaller stations in Europe.

Hope they don't cancel IST. I fly it 10+ times a year  brokenheart 



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineFlydl2atl From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6789 times:

Yea, I agree. I think were likely to see more Int'l flying. Delta has a total of 59 767-300ERs. However, some of them are configured to fly domestically. I think we'll see most of them converted to Int'l layouts by next summer. The net effect of this will be a slight reduction in domestic service since they'll stop sending (or send less) 763's to places like DEN, JAX, TPA in exchange for added frequencies from MD88s and MD90s. Other places like MEM, BHM, JAN, CLT will be seeing less MD88s, MD90s and more RJ's.

User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6739 times:

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 9):
Yea, I agree. I think were likely to see more Int'l flying. Delta has a total of 59 767-300ERs.

Hope so too, but what I think DL really lacks in Intl route is Asia,but I don't think its possible with the 767 right?



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6681 times:

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 7):
In addition to this I would imagine JFKEZE is in jeopardy

JFK-EZE has always been in jeopardy because CO's counter-application is more promising.
And about the routes, remember there was only recently a thread about DL growing internationally by 30%, coinciding with the announcement of ATL-DUS/MGA/RTB/TGU. DL has a total of 59 763ERs, of which 8 are currently in domestic configuration. 4 will be converted for the 2006 summer season, and the other 4 one year later, though with the way things are going, they might as well convert all or next year. Then of course there are the 8 777s, which are already used to the max on domestic routes. Then of course you have all the 764s, 763s, 738s, 757s and RJs, which can serve the entire continent from Canada via Lat Am and the Caribbean down to the northernmost airports of South America. DL still has room to grow internationally, and they will use that room, primarily of course from ATL, but also SLC, CVG, JFK, LAX, MCO and BOS (the latter depending on Massport).


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4792 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6676 times:
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Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 7):
In addition to this I would imagine JFKEZE is in jeopardy

Yes, JFK-EZE is in jeopardy, but not because of Ch.11; rather, because the DOT has still not made a decision yet (even though CO proposes to start IAH-EZE in Nov and DL in Dec).


User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6619 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 11):
JFK-EZE has always been in jeopardy because CO's counter-application is more promising



Quoting Panamair (Reply 12):
Yes, JFK-EZE is in jeopardy, but not because of Ch.11; rather, because the DOT has still not made a decision yet (even though CO proposes to start IAH-EZE in Nov and DL in Dec).

But don't you think that CH11 may influence the DOT when making a decision on JFKEZE? Or is this completely independent to that?


User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6582 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 5):
They will expand international flying. IMO when flights are cut, plan on seeing most domestic flight reductions at CVG and SLC.

SLC is growing. There will be new mainline destionations and new E70 destinations.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6483 times:

Quoting Gokmengs (Thread starter):
After the bankruptcy NW slashed some of its Intl flights

Uh what routes?



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6468 times:

How well does DL do on ATL-MAN?
Will they leave MAN or is it a good route for them as it is for AA, US and CO?


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6446 times:

Here's the thing that everybody's missing, and it is the seminal issue for the US airline industry.

1. Every legacy carrier except maybe US is cutting domestic capacity, and putting on more international capacity.

2. Less domestic capacity on the legacies will mean more room for the Southwests and JetBlues to expand domestically, making the remaining domestic legacy route system less profitable/viable.

3. If everybody is adding more international routes, it means the overcapacity problem domestically becomes an overcapacity problem internationally. How many flights to London and Sao Paulo can one adequately fill with compensatory traffic? It's OVERKILL! Complicating things is the U.S. security/visa situation which discourages sixth freedom transit in the U.S.

IMHO, what is needed are a couple of liquidations or mergers in which a large amount of domestic capacity is wrung out - too much too quickly for the discounters to fill overnight - and where all old aircraft are retired ASAP. If you take today's six intl legacy carriers and merged them into three large operations, with only modest increased dependence on international flying, the outcome would be better than making the current six sick puppies financially healthy in a truly sustainable way.

All of you are talking about restructuring that nibbles around the edges and wouldn't pass muster with any rationale economist - like UA's post-Chapter 11 plan which is based on $50 crude and even at that doesn't forecast profitability until 2007. One good pandemic, one good terrorist attack aimed at a U.S. aircraft, and that whole plan is TOAST!


User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6420 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 15):
Uh what routes?

Uh(I don't know if thats being a wise ass  Wink

MSP-LGW is suspended from Oct 30, 2005 - March 9, 2006
DTW-CDG is reduced to 5x weekly (No Monday or Thursday flight out of DTW, Tuesday/Friday return from CDG) Jan 16, 2006-March 9, 2006

From PSU.DTW.SCE's post and here is the thread he started
New NW International Seasonal Reductions (by DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE Sep 15 2005 in Civil Aviation)



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6375 times:

I would think ANC and FAI service is on the block.... while not international destinations.... the amount of time DL leaves an A/C sitting unused up here is silly....

[Edited 2005-09-15 18:12:16]


Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6296 times:
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I wouldn't be surprised to see DL pull all 763s that are capable of flying internationally off domestic and reconfigure them to fly internationally. It makes since and they can make more $$$$$$$ there.

How many 764s do they have? Are these capable of flying over the pond etc?

LACA773


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6249 times:

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 20):
How many 764s do they have?

21.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 20):
Are these capable of flying over the pond etc?

They all have ETOPS, since they are operated to Hawaii.


User currently offlineDanimarroquin From Colombia, joined Jan 2005, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

Probably if DELTA leaves BOG Avianca would be able to cover BOG - ATL . It would be nice to see AV in ATL.

User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6217 times:

Quoting Lono (Reply 19):
I would think ANC and FAI service is on the block....

Well don't count on it. ANC will be seeing a capacity increase.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3068 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6193 times:

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 10):

Hope so too, but what I think DL really lacks in Intl route is Asia,but I don't think its possible with the 767 right?

True that DL is lacking in Asia, but the 767 isn't a good aircraft for Asian service. Additionally, Tokyo for example, is heavily slot restricted and DL probably wouldn't be able to get much of a presence going there. As far as the 767, they could probably do well SEA-Asia or PDX-Asia, but not from SFO or LAS, certainly not from ATL (dunno about SLC, but there isn't enough O&D). Actually SEA might work well as an Asian hub for DL given that they have the feed from AS, and they can codeshare with CI, KE, and NW. Plus from SEA the 767s would have enough range to fly to Japan.

I always thought DL should move all 777s to Asia, adding Hong Kong and Osaka from ATL, and perhaps starting one NRT flight from the west coast. Then move some of the 764s to Europe to make up the lost capacity.

Quoting Lono (Reply 19):
I would think ANC and FAI service is on the block.... while not international destinations.... the amount of time DL leaves an A/C sitting unused up here is silly....

Could be. The new partnership with AS would probably be enough, in the low season at least.


25 Gigneil : A 777-200ER would hit ground somewhere in China an hour before reaching HKG from ATL. Osaka, perhaps. DL could just never make their west coast - nrt
26 LipeGIG : Delta in Brazil today inform that loads on GRU-ATL on july was "only" 100% and with very good profits. They are also begining GIG-ATL service next mo
27 Gokmengs : Good idea but I don't know if DL is happy with SLC, I always think that hub could be somewhere else. Just my 2 cents How about routes to China or Ind
28 Lono : Sound interesting.... more flights or bigger A/C??? DL has gone "seasonal" in the past.... only to eventually leave...
29 DeltaMIA : If I said bigger aircraft it would give it away.
30 Jetdeltamsy : i think it's pretty simple. the routes that generate profit will be retained. those that lose money will probably be eliminated. as to which routes in
31 Jkudall : SLC & ATL are Delta's fastest growing hubs, is still growing, and will continue to see growth. I'd say they are happy with it. SLC has and will conti
32 DeltaMIA : It will be announced in due time. Some stations will be losing mainline service. 1 market will lose service all together. A lot of new mainline route
33 Post contains images HanginOut : Although I don't want to see any liquidations, I have to agree with Sebring. What would be best for the US airline industry would be to see some of t
34 DAL767400ER : I could list quite a few "suspects" in that case, many of which only recently got mainline (back), like GPT (for obvious reasons), PHF, out of ATL, o
35 DeltaMIA : Its mainline There a few domestic surprises Well yes and yes along with a lot of other point to point routes. Time will tell.
36 Post contains images DAL767400ER : In that case I change my assumption to MDW. The way DL has reduced service there points at an entire withdrawal from said airports. No guessing from
37 RCS763AV : They fly to Tokyo.... I just wish my 23,000 miles dont go down the sink, DL is a good carrier and its dissapereance would create a disaster in the US
38 DAL767400ER : One measly flight per day, and no chance to get any slots for more flights. The last slots DL had at NRT (for LAX and JFK service) they sold to FX, w
39 Incitatus : Yes but this no indication of overall financial success. What will their loads be like in September, when Summer traffic is gone? I had to fly from t
40 Sydscott : I think you've confused capacity with frequency. Alot of capacity reductions have come about by downgrading the aircraft that are operating the secto
41 NYCAAer : Delta is expanding internationally- new routes to Central America have been announced, and Dusseldorf comes on line next year out of ATL. I'll bet we'
42 B4real : TPA will definitely retain 767 service, no question. Not all of the 763's are capable of Int'l routes as the 763-ER. 21. Yes, they are capable of NA-
43 AF022 : I found this funny. Out of what, 3 hubs, ATL & SLC are the fastest growing? And the third is being downsized? Hardlyl resounding for SLC. Note also t
44 MAH4546 : SLC will be seeing five new destinatons announced in the coming weeks.
45 Lono : OK so you are claiming inside info we will find out soon... My question is your profile says you are very young... Younger than many on this board ha
46 MAH4546 : Don't go around assuming just because someone else might be young. You are the one that is looking like a fool here. DeltaMIA knows what he is talkin
47 DeltaMIA : It is a public forum. You can believe me or you can't. I have no need to substantiate any information, but I have a number of users that respect the
48 Flydl2atl : Speaking of new p2p routes why not DCA-TPA...It seems like USAir does well with this. Why waste the slots on HSV-DCA or LEX-DCA. Also what about Int'l
49 Lono : As you can see... I am not "assuming" anything... age is no matter to me...just come clean please.. when I was 23 I was a DL manager... I am no "fool
50 DeltaMIA : Those slots were awarded to DCI in order to serve those markets. Failure to do so will result in the slots going up for grabs again. Hardly. There ar
51 UPSMD11 : I would love to see some of the RJ flights leave the SDF-CVG market and possibly add 1 or 2 flights to SLC, opening up the west coast. Mainline would
52 Centrair : If DL were to expand Internationally, they need Asia. Technically a 763ER can make it from SCL to NRT, KIX, NGO, ICN, HKG, and PVG. This type of fligh
53 Mariner : Wow. After reading this thread, every airline should go Chapter 11, because it seems as if Delta is going to continue on its merry path of grow, grow,
54 MAH4546 : Under bankruptcy re-orginization, an airline obviously has to realign their route network to make it healtheir and better rounded for the future. Rea
55 DeltaMIA : It isn't grow, grow, grow. Its change, change, change. A capacity increase in one market is the result of a capacity decrease in another.
56 Mariner : So - we've been told of new routes being added - how many routes are being cut? Then if we already knew about two of them, then there are not "five n
57 MAH4546 : Well, LGB and MZT have not been officially announced yet. We know about them thanks to the fact that Delta couldn't hide the application process for
58 Mariner : I thank you for the reply, and I appreciate your comment: But that isn't quite what DeltaMIA said: So, I shall stand by and wait for the PR announceme
59 MAH4546 : I fail to see why they contradict each other. What we will see is: 1) New routes 2) Routes discontinued 3) Capacity adjustments 4) Frequency adjustme
60 Mariner : I don't want to flog a dead horse here, but there are contradictions. Or - there is a contradiction. You alone listed five new destinations from SLC
61 MAH4546 : I'm sure it will all balance out in the end. I have spoken about five new routes from SLC because that is all I know about. I don't know any specific
62 Mariner : I hope it will, too. cheers mariner
63 MAH4546 : Don't know why I put RDU under MCO route cuts; meant to say MSY.
64 DeltaMIA : Never said new destinations (at least not domestically). However there are new routes (and mainline at that) some point to point and some spoke to hu
65 Mariner : Um - sorry, but you did say "new destinations" and you didn't say "not domestically": I also assuming (foolish moi?) that we are talking about post b
66 Gokmengs : I agree completely, if DL is going to increase intl Asia is a MUST. And when you have a hub at SLC and the range of 767 allows the flights DL might a
67 FlyPNS1 : It's not balanced....but what's your point? There will be plenty of cuts and downgrades, however the full extent of these cuts remains to be seen. In
68 RL757PVD : Id like to take a stab at those 12 AUS CLE CMH GSO MCI MHT MKE MSP ORF SNA Thats 10, now the wildcards HNL PVD FCO MSY PHL PBI (currently 1x mainline
69 PVD757 : I'm guessing that BDL-SLC on mainline is a new domestic route (DL frickin loves BDL!). I can't think of too many other markets big enough for mainline
70 2travel2know : I think the international routes are not in danger, but many DL domestic routes are. US airlines usually know that there's money to be made in the int
71 A342 : Even the Boeing website disagrees with you on HKG. They show the range of the 763ER as 11306 kms while SLC-HKG is, according to the Great Circle Mapp
72 Airzim : Based on the publicity DL is spending on TXL flights, I wonder how well their service to Berlin is doing?
73 DAL767400ER : Better than expected, especially in BizE. Nonetheless, DL will adjust to the weaker winter season by going down to 5x weekly service instead of daily
74 Sebring : I haven't seen a Chapter 11 restructuring yet that hasn't seen outright route cancellations. US slashed PIT and has dumped routes in PHL and CLT. Dow
75 2travel2know : If any DL SLC-Asia B767 flights were to operate, a after midnight departure may take care of the SLC temperature issue. Then the problem is that an a
76 Post contains links A342 : After a look at the Great Circle Mapper you will find out that this route would require ETOPS 240 for twins if you want to avoid longer flight paths.
77 Airzim : What does that actually mean. "better than expected" doesn't mean it's making money.
78 DAL767400ER : It means both loads as well as yields are better than expected, so yes, it is making money.
79 Sydscott : PIT especially was happening prior to bankruptcy. PHL & CLT have virtually maintained their flight schedules throughout by US substituting mainline f
80 Gokmengs : Heard the same thing apparently a lot of business pax. Flew IST-JFK today talked with a DL exec, he mentioned the same thing, what I was surprised mo
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