Artsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34 Posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2382 times:
Unlike the endless freedoms given to United, the tide has already changed for the others filing.
The PBGC today ruled that unlike United, NW, and Delta will not be allowed to default on their pension payments during chapt 11.
During United's long stint in Chapt 11, they not only managed to avoid making pension contributions, but managed to get rid of the pension more or less completely, yet DL/NW are not being given the same freedoms.
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2308 times:
other bankrupt carriers and companies have their pensions in pbgc so the law for ual was consistent but not popular. dal and nwac are butting up against politics and the fear of right leaning politicians among some judges who are now trying to redefine the rules. will be an interesting argument that will probably rest on the ultimate strength, or lack, of the current administration.
Gnomon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2278 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2): All I see is a quote from a PBGC official...far from a judge.
FlyPNS1 is exactly right. The article quotes an official with the PBGC -- not a judge (far from it) -- who is simply expressing the PBGC's determination that the law requires DL and NW to continue their pension payments, absent judicial relief.
Of course, a court order like the one entered in UAL's case could grant DL/NW relief from complying with that law.
But it's far too early for any such court order. A ruling on these pension issues would involve complicated facts and lengthy hearings, which would take a pretty long time. Don't expect anything like that less than 24 hours after DL and NW filed their petitions! Our judicial system tends to be cumbersome and slow-moving, particularly in cases such as these.
That said, when the time comes, if DL and NW can prove they're in the same circumstances as UAL was when it was granted relief, I'd imagine they'd have a pretty easy time getting a similar order.
AirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2235 times:
Nothing has been ruled on as of today hours after each airline files. Now one thing that might hurt DL/NW is that they filed on the same day and the potential is there for one of the two to be lumped with the other in certain legal decisions that they might otherwise not be which could result in less than desirable outcomes for one of them.
I agree - the law has to remain consistent and the bench is not a place to legislate morality despite what some of our bleeding heart pacifist Commie-Liberal "Honors" think to the contrary.
Tbird From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 851 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2225 times:
No where does it say a judge ruled saying that NW and DAL must make pension payments. As others stated the head of Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp simply stated a policy on the books they have. DL and NW still can go to a judge and request the pensions be dropped, they can also simply not pay the next contribution which Delta has indicated it will not pay. More then likely they will be granted a default on their pension plans, its either that or they shut down all together.
MD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2122 times:
Grienstein has said the pension plan is dead if DAL files Chapter 11. Well DAL has filed and there is no way that the pension will not be terminated. The filing papers mention a $10B deficit to the pension plan. That's $10,000,000,000.00 that can be erased in BK. It is a done deal.
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13012 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2003 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2): Where's this judge you mention? All I see is a quote from a PBGC official...far from a judge.
Correct. The PBGC is a creditor like any other. They'll have their vote. Now, its reasonable as a creditor that the PBGC will get stock in the re-emerging NW and DL. Here is a scary thought, the government is going to own a good chunk of the airline industry. Probably 2nd only to GECAS!
The pensions are gone. Probably like UA, NW and DL will have to make one more final cash payment.
All in all, I expect these BK's to go much faster than UA's. But that's not really saying anything!
Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.