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United And Swiss File With DOT To Begin Codeshare  
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4301 times:

Didn't see this posted yet...

United and Swiss have filed an expedited application with the DOT to begin codesharing on each other's flights, beginning October 30.

Markets where the UA* code will be placed on LX flights:
ZRH-ORD/LAX
ZRH-BOM/DUS/DXB/FCO/GVA/HAM/MCT/MXP/NBO/NCE/NUE/STR/TLV/VIE

Markets where the LX* code will be placed on UA flights:
IAD-ZRH
IAD/LAX/ORD-ALB/ATL/BDL/BN A/BTV/BUF/CAE/CHS/CLE/CLT/DAY/DEN/DTW/GSO/GSP/MSP/OAK/ORF/PDX/PHX/RIC/SEA/SFO/SMF/TYS

The filing is available at http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf93/345202_web.pdf.


I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

This was expected, and more is likely to follow next year when the AA codeshare is completely phased out. So far, the proposed reciprocal transatlantic code-share seems restricted to the inter-hub operations ZRH-IAD/ORD/LAX. I guess it's only a matter of time for the other LX gateways (BOS, JFK, MIA) to follow. With the UA/LH code on the ZRH-LAX flight and, for the time being, the LH-code on the ZRH-MIA flight, LX seems to be willing to further invest in these 2 gateways.

User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4077 times:

Hi

As far as I know there are still no final decisions made concerning the SWISS longhaul network. I had an interesting talk with someone involved in the network planning recently (Lufthansa, not SWISS). And they were very clear in pointing out that they are more or less only interested in the Swiss market and will downgrade the hub to a minimum if necessary.

Again, no final decision is made. Almost for sure is the withdrawal of the BBJ service ZRH-EWR already next spring, followed by the complete African network including Johannesburg. At the same time the plan is to reroute South African Airlines to Munich. So this is a big loss for ZRH. Singapore and Bangkok are on the list too (Singapore will be served by Singapore Airlines and Bangkok by Thai Airlines) as well as Geneva-JFK (stupid decision if true).

SWISS so far only has a guarantee for the ZRH-JFK flight. All other destinations in North America need to go through a check with LAX most likely to fall (they currently check if it makes sense to keep BOS and MIA).

On the other side SWISS obviously got the permission from Lufthansa to operate flights to Delhi, India since there is a growing demand from the Swiss home market. Plans to start flights to China are currently dropped after market researches came to the result that SWISS could not sell enough tickets in the home market.

These are some ideas by the network planners, it does not mean that this is going to happen since the board will make the final decisions. And there are also politics involved.

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineFlySwiss From Switzerland, joined Jul 2003, 443 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Thomas, hopefully this is not going to be true.
I heard that UA will serve IAD-ZRH and ORD-ZRH daily non-stop with next summer time table.
So we will see 2 UA planes every day at ZRH  Smile

Rgds
Stefan



Simle at the world and the world smiles back :)
User currently offlineSwiss-airplane From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 591 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4001 times:

I also believe that this will not happen
and Air Canada is starting ZRH-DEL with a Swiss codeshare, so I doubt that Swiss start the route. I also see some future positive development for ZRH


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 2):
On the other side SWISS obviously got the permission from Lufthansa to operate flights to Delhi, India since there is a growing demand from the Swiss home market.

This seems weird as the Star Alliance member AC will open a flight ZRH-DEL (coming from YYZ) with full traffic rights.

Regarding the BBJ service between ZRH and EWR, it is hard to believe. There is so much business traffic on this route that you can fill the flight with only O&D passengers (the yield should be good because only business). I also don't think that they give up the whole African network . Some destinations were and are very good in revenue for Swiss and former Swissair.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 2):
As far as I know there are still no final decisions made concerning the SWISS longhaul network. I had an interesting talk with someone involved in the network planning recently (Lufthansa, not SWISS). And they were very clear in pointing out that they are more or less only interested in the Swiss market and will downgrade the hub to a minimum if necessary.

This was always said by some people when LH bought Swiss, its an old story you warm up. The LH management denied it strongly and always claimed that they are interested in the long-haul flights out of Zurich and even proposed to give Swiss two more long-haul aircraft. If it was true what you write then they changed their mind in a such short time (only few months) and I see the LH management simply as liars and very untrustworthy. I'd rather think that they keep up the most long-haul flights of Swiss for few years and look then which are profitable and which are not.

This is once again a post of yours where you claim having spoken with this or that airline manager without being able to give reliable sources. It seems you know about everybody in the airline management. BTW you are off topic, please start an own thread to post your claims. This topic is about the code-share between LX and UA.

[Edited 2005-09-16 12:58:06]

User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3956 times:

I wonder what impact the discontinuation of the LX/AA codeshares and the start of the UA/LX codeshares will have on the AA-operated flights out of ZRH (ZRH-JFK/DFW).

Considering the rather high percentage of connecting passengers on the ZRH-DFW flight, I would not be surprised if AA decided to scrap this flight in the not to distant future.

If LX were also to end non-stop service to LAX as quite a few of you here in the forum do suggest, ZRH would lose all directs flights to points west of the Mississippi in the US.

Is it conceivable that UA/LX would start a non-stop service to the UA hub in the mile high city in such a situation ?

P.S. As a regular transatlantic flyer out of ZRH, I decided to make this my first post on a. net  Smile


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 5):
I also don't think that they give up the whole African network . Some destinations were and are very good in revenue for Swiss and former Swissair.

There's hardly anything left of the African network. In West and Central Africa Dakar, Bamako, Banjul, Abidjan, Lagos, Accra, Libreville and Kinshasa have been closed, and only Malabo, Doula and Yaounde remain. In the South, there's only Johannesburg and no more Cape Town and Harare. In the East, Swiss has managed to hold on to Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam.

There's hardly anything that can still be abandoned, if you think about it...


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3940 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
There's hardly anything left of the African network. In West and Central Africa Dakar, Bamako, Banjul, Abidjan, Lagos, Accra, Libreville and Kinshasa have been closed, and only Malabo, Doula and Yaounde remain. In the South, there's only Johannesburg and no more Cape Town and Harare. In the East, Swiss has managed to hold on to Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam.

Yes you are absolutly right but I read several times that these remaining destinations have quite good yields.


User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting FlySwiss (Reply 3):
Thomas, hopefully this is not going to be true.

I hope this as well since it would mean the loss of many jobs.

Quoting FlySwiss (Reply 3):
So we will see 2 UA planes every day at ZRH

That's good news indeed.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 5):
This seems weird as the Star Alliance member AC will open a flight ZRH-DEL (coming from YYZ) with full traffic rights.

Plans change fast as you know...Star Alliance will closely look so that their members do not compete each other. They will probably leave the ZRH-DEL market to SWISS and SWISS will leave the ZRH-Canada market to AC in the future.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 5):
I also don't think that they give up the whole African network . Some destinations were and are very good in revenue for Swiss and former Swissair.

That's very interesting. Could you give us some more details on that please?

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 5):
This was always said by some people when LH bought Swiss, its an old story you warm up. The LH management denied it strongly and always claimed that they are interested in the long-haul flights out of Zurich and even proposed to give Swiss two more long-haul aircraft.

They did not deny it strongly. In fact they did not give a single guarantee and they always declared that they will cut flights if the airline does not manage to generate profits.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 5):
This is once again a post of yours where you claim having spoken with this or that airline manager without being able to give reliable sources

FIRST: STOP GETTING PERSONAL! SECOND: I CLEARLY DECLARED THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE HEARD. I DID NOT CLAIM THAT THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN 100%. READ MY POSTS BEFORE BITCHING AT ME!! THIRD: I DID NOT CLAIM TO HAVE SPOKEN WITH AN AIRLINE MANAGER! I said i have spoken with someone who is involved with the LH network planning. That's a big difference since they will make suggestions to the board. It does not mean that the board will follow.

Do you want a source? Here you have a source: Lufthansa sent a delegation to a large company I have some relations to on Tuesday, 14:00 GMT to negociate about a possible BSL-EWR service. Like I said, it was very interesting. Did I already mention that they will cut the ZRH-EWR service?
If you don't believe me, I don't care.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 5):
It seems you know about everybody in the airline management.

Not about everybody but I know a few things- let's say- earlier.  Wink

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 5):
BTW you are off topic, please start an own thread to post your claims.

Why do you care to write such a long reply then if this is off-topic? It is not off-topic because this is a thread about SWISS developments in the longhaul segment.

RJ100



none
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3919 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 8):
Yes you are absolutely right but I read several times that these remaining destinations have quite good yields.

It is hard to understand that LX did not leverage the African route network and know how of SR to offer flights to more booming and high yielding "oil destinations" that just Malabo. Luanda and Port Harcourt are just two examples that come to mind. Now that SN has occupied a large portion of this attractive niche its probalby to late for LX to get a decent share of this pie.....


User currently offlineAirMale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3904 times:

Whenever a post regarding LX comes up you can be sure of RJ100 having something negative to say. Sad really.


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3891 times:

Quoting AirMale (Reply 11):
Whenever a post regarding LX comes up you can be sure of RJ100 having something negative to say. Sad really.

Anytime better than keeping a naive misbelief, Lufthansa is interested in this "superb" airline.

BTW, your statement is already wrong in itself. If you do a quick search you realise that there have been dozens of topics about SWISS in the last few weeks without my posts.

But I see that my posts are not welcome. I will take the consequences.

RJ100

[Edited 2005-09-16 13:43:59]


none
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3886 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 10):
Luanda and Port Harcourt are just two examples that come to mind.

Rights to LAD are very difficult to obtain. With SR/LX withdrawing from the Nigerian market when they gave up the ZRH-LOS-ACC flight, it was hard to imagine the launch of PHC flights.

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 6):
I wonder what impact the discontinuation of the LX/AA codeshares and the start of the UA/LX codeshares will have on the AA-operated flights out of ZRH (ZRH-JFK/DFW).

I wouldn't be surprised at all the see DFW-ZRH getting the axe in favor of a relaunch of ORD-ZRH. However, with UA apparently also contemplating a launch of that route, that could possibly oversaturate the market and withhold AA from investing its resources. ORD would undeniably be a better hub for ZRH services than DFW, though, now that AA is in it alone once again. Off topic, I wouldn't be at all surprised if AA were to launch DFW-BRU services instead.

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 6):
If LX were also to end non-stop service to LAX as quite a few of you here in the forum do suggest, ZRH would lose all directs flights to points west of the Mississippi in the US.

LAX has been one of the weakest links in the SR/LX network for quite a while, yet it seems like LH/LX are not just willing to give up on it. LH is to place its code on the flight, as is UA, so there still seems to be a future for the route.


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3858 times:

@HB-IWC

Thanks for the info on LAD and PHC. I am not really surprised that the Angolans are guarding their high yielding home market closely. After all they will soon have to cough up a nice pile of cash for their new 777 and 737 NG  Wink

What are the chances of UA/LX offering a non-stop service to Denver if AA stops serving DFW ex ZRH ?

Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that LH is doing quite nicely on its FRA-DEN flights which started out as an A340 service but was quickly upgraded to an 744.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting AirMale (Reply 11):
Whenever a post regarding LX comes up you can be sure of RJ100 having something negative to say. Sad really.

While I am absolutely not in the business of defending or attacking anyone here, I have always believed that the seemingly innocuous intentions of Lufthansa were only there to charm and sweeten the Swiss and the overly naive.

Quite obviously, Lufthansa has closed the LX deal with its own bottom line as it primary consideration, and with a Lufthansa moneyspinner by the name of Munich at spitting distance of basically anywhere in Switzerland, I have always believed it to be highly unlikely that Lufthansa would also heavily invest in LX and its homebase as a fully-fledged intercontinental hub.

ZRH's loghaul traffic is heavily relying on connecting traffic, and why would Lufthansa maintain a large amount of such European traffic, when duplicate service is available the other side of the border.

As I have stated many times in this forum, I strongly believe that Lufthansa's presence at LX will eventually lead to the further stripping of the ZRH hub to its bare minimum, with a lot of the traffic being assured by Star Alliance partners. Proof of such a strategy is starting to emerge if we can believe SA)">UA's intention to establish an ORD route of its own, thereby diluting the necessity for LX to operate such a flight.

In the same line of though, is there any reason why LX would continue to operate a less-than-daily one-stop SIN flight, when Star partner SQ offers daily nonstop operations? And the list goes on: TG could very well take care of BKK, as could SA with JNB. Pretty soon, we're indeed down to JFK, NRT and HKG.

Mind you, I am not advocating a dooms day scenario by which Swiss is relegated to Lufthansa's regional petdog. But those credulous enough to really believe that Lufthansa is committed to building ZRH as an intercontinental hub, might be in for quite some disappointment in the not too distant future.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3825 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 14):
What are the chances of UA/LX offering a non-stop service to Denver if AA stops serving DFW ex ZRH ?

While I still have some good contacts at LX, and therefore consider myself in the know when it comes to this airline, I'm afraid that more and more shots are being called in Frankfurt and, in this case, likely also in Elk Grove Township. However, given that MUC doesn't seem to be ready to support a DEN connection, I'd say it's likely ZRG wouldn't be either. In any case, wouldn't one expect a ZRH-SFO interhub operation first? MUC-SFO seems to be doing quite ok. Maybe a UA/LX ZRH-SFO would work better than its disastrous predecessor under SR.


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 6):
P.S. As a regular transatlantic flyer out of ZRH, I decided to make this my first post on a. net Smile

In the midst of all the fingerpointing typical of A.net - here's a welcome to the forums!



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

I simply can't believe that LH would force LX to abandon profitable routes where LH don't fly! I have watched LX grow the ZRH-NBO-DAR route very successfully and, last I heard, they plan to increase the frequency, not drop it. LX has some useful African routes that complement the LH network. Why would they cut them?!

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
I have watched LX grow the ZRH-NBO-DAR route very successfully and, last I heard, they plan to increase the frequency, not drop it.

While this route may feature very high load factors, yields have historically not been so brilliant. When I was still involved with SR, the thrice (and later 4 times) weekly ZRH-NBO-DAR flight operated with MD11, and more often than not, the 12-seat F-class compartiment would be used to easily accomodate the C-class pax, including award upgrades which were easy to get on the route, whereas the 49-seat C-class compartiment would simply be sold as Y-class.

Nevertheless, I think the route is relatively safe as it compements rather than duplicates existing Star Alliances service. Let's just not exaggerate its contribution to the bottom line.

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
LX has some useful African routes that complement the LH network. Why would they cut them?!

There's really not so much left to go by: ZRH-SSG-NSI and ZRH-SSG-DLA, in addition to the already mentioned ZRH-NBO-DAR. ZRH-JNB is largely covered by Star, and it is likely that only one carrier will remain on the route.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3746 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19):
While this route may feature very high load factors, yields have historically not been so brilliant. When I was still involved with SR, the thrice (and later 4 times) weekly ZRH-NBO-DAR flight operated with MD11, and more often than not, the 12-seat F-class compartiment would be used to easily accomodate the C-class pax, including award upgrades which were easy to get on the route, whereas the 49-seat C-class compartiment would simply be sold as Y-class.

Nevertheless, I think the route is relatively safe as it compements rather than duplicates existing Star Alliances service. Let's just not exaggerate its contribution to the bottom line.

I hope I'm not exaggerating but a profitable route is a profitable route. And I also flew on the three class MD-11s but they are long gone. The four A332s used on the ZRH-DAR route now have C48 Y182. Load factors are certainly high but yields are good too. SAA (i.e. Star) fly to DAR but only from JNB. That's a long detour if you're departing from Europe! LX292/293 looks safe to me.


User currently offlineHBIHLtoEZE From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 281 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

We have now heard again (and this for several times in a row) that occupancy of LX seats have increased quite impressingly (on laung haul traffic: over 90 %). I am aware that good occupancy has nothing to do with revenue, but it is a sign that a route potentially works...so why should you neglect such promising routes? And, Swiss long haul routes aren't sold that cheap anymore. If you compare today to last or especially the year before, then I think fares rose about 30 %.

It is hard to believe that Swiss long haul flights should be reduced while UA comes with a second flight to ZRH. Is it a 777 (hopefully)?


Cheers



Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Just some thoughts, so please don't bitch at me...

Overall load factor in 2004 for SWISS was 74.9%, overall load factor for Lufthansa was 74.0%. So basically we can say that they have the same load factors, although one company is financially doing much better than the other. Maybe this gives an idea on how good yield is?

Also I doubt that their yield is up 30%. If it is up, that's good. But 30%? Very doubtful. I have never heard of an airline that managed to increase yield more than 5% or 6 % in a year, and certainly not SWISS which faces a difficult time.

And now let's also see the cost side. I can give you some easyJet figures. SWISS has different figures but it gives an idea...

easyJet's fuel costs are up 61% in the third quarter of this year. And they have hedged one third of their demand. Now imagine how much it hits an airline like SWISS which does not have a fuel hedge at all! For easyJet it means almost 400 millions Swiss Francs additional costs. How much for SWISS?

Sorry guys, but I really dont see where they want to realize a profit, especially on routes that have been weakening long before the high oil price (i.e. LAX).

Note that this is a friendly notice (like my previous posts too). If someone wants to get personal: Keep it yourself!

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3406 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
The four A332s used on the ZRH-DAR route now have C48 Y182. Load factors are certainly high but yields are good too.

Figures I've seen point at less than 50% revenue load factors in C. The flight is still marred by heavy overbookings in Y in order to fill up the remaining C seats. So, indeed, great load factors, but I tend to disagree with your assessment of the yields on the route.

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
LX292/293 looks safe to me.

As I said, this route is relatively safe, as it nicely complements Star's current route structure.


User currently offlineUAcosCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

I didn't have time to re-read the whole thread. What is the big deal with codesharing? Airlines make some coin off each other? I never understood that concept. Use a NZ plane to fly to AKL vs Use your own metal instead.

25 ACB777 : If LX stops service to NBO/DAR, will LH start a FRA-NBO/DAR route? It may do well considering the number of connecting LH flights to North America.
26 HB-IWC : I think that for now, the NBO-DAR flight is relatively safe at ZRH and operated by LX. If LX were to drop it, which is, again, unlikely to happen, I'
27 Daron4000 : I hope that they keep ORD, and rather upgrade it to an A340, then that would really do Star justice in ORD.
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