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Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India  
User currently offlineBlasphemystic From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 213 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

They are long overdue..

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TRAVEL/09/16/india.airports.ap/index.html


The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good. -- Samuel Johnson
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

Unfortunately it seems like any sort of reform will take a long time before they materialize. Makes you wonder how things will be like 1-2 years from now, especially since air travel is booming -- and they're all making big orders for new planes.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Mumbai Airport is Modernising fast.Phase 1 [Lh Dep side] completed.Phase 2 in progress [RH dep side & Arrival] of Terminal 1B.
8 more bays constructed,18 more planned.
The confusing part is will the Privatisation scheme include the Mod carried out.
Difficulty is the Red Tape involved.

I'd just say Make A Difference

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBandA From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

==========================
With an outdated, short-staffed air-traffic control system, the worst fear is that a signal mix-up could lead to a mid-air collision.
==========================

Great! I am headed to Delhi in a month or so and the last thing I needed was this on my mind  Angry

Anyone here familiar with DEL can you please shed some light on this issue? how many flights land/takeoff around mid-night? is JAL one of the few airlines that land their in the evening instead of mid-night?



"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2273 times:

Quoting BandA (Reply 3):
is JAL one of the few airlines that land their in the evening instead of mid-night?

I am sure it is. Most of the international flights are round about mid-night. And don't be scared.
rgds
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting BandA (Reply 3):
With an outdated, short-staffed air-traffic control system, the worst fear is that a signal mix-up could lead to a mid-air collision.

Ever heard of the TCAS.Thumbs Up
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineEha From France, joined May 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Quoting BandA (Reply 3):

Anyone here familiar with DEL can you please shed some light on this issue? how many flights land/takeoff around mid-night? is JAL one of the few airlines that land their in the evening instead of mid-night?

They have a modern ATC system at DEL and Mumbai. Installed by Raytheon around 1998-99 as far as I can remember. Which does not prevent on problems to happen; several air miss approaching DEL happened the past years.

E.


User currently offlineOURBOEING From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting Eha (Reply 6):
They have a modern ATC system at DEL and Mumbai. Installed by Raytheon around 1998-99 as far as I can remember. Which does not prevent on problems to happen; several air miss approaching DEL happened the past years.

I travel to Delhi every year and I have never encountered any delays at all except when it is foggy. The only thing that needs to be fixed/installed is the ILS. I don't know what the update on it is but during the foggy nights/mornings the flights are delayed for hours due to no visibility.

Can anyone provide us on an update as to if the ILS system has been installed at DEL yet?

Thanks

OURBOEING


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

Quoting OURBOEING (Reply 7):
Can anyone provide us on an update as to if the ILS system has been installed at DEL yet?

OK - here's what I remember offhand - the ILS system to enable landing during heavy fogs has been installed. Initially it was not commissioned due to lack of calibration or similar issues. Then it was commissioned. It then turned out that none of the domestic airline pilots had any training in using that system, so all the delays/re-routing continued unabated. However, some international flights had pilots certified in that system, and they were able to land during heavy fog conditions.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Ever heard of the TCAS

Doesn't TCAS imply that both aircraft must be equipped for it to work? Wasn't this the problem with the SAA incident at IGI some years ago?

Thanks for clarifying.


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2968 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

TCAS is installed on almost all Indian civilian aircraft. The problem with the ILS approach in Delhi is two-fold - because of the location of the Indian Airlines terminal very close to runaway 10/28 and the fact that National Highway 8 is located very close to the treshold of the runaway it is only CAT-IIIB certified. I don't know how many of you are familiar with Delhi winters but the fog sometimes puts visibility lower than Cat-IIIB minima (around 250m) and no flights can operate. There are plans, and these are OLD plans to put in a Cat-IIIC system that will allow for zero-visibility take-offs and landings. To make matters worse, several of the newer carriers (9W and S2 included here) don't have enough Cat-IIIB trained pilots (IC has quite a few) so even if landings are possible, the pilots can't land the planes. I would love to see wher AA and CO will have to divert their flights (because I'm pretty sure that at least a few flights will get diverted for sure) and with those 777-200ER's at the edge of their range performance envelopes I wonder if they'll make Jaipur. (Maybe Chandigarh?). Seriously DEL airport is pretty much useless between 2100-1000 hours on some days in winter (It was quite funny one day last year when I had gone to the airport for a photo-shoot with IC to see all the IC and Int'l flights take off while the Jet and Sahara planes had to wait)
The other problem with the two major airports DEL and BOM (which handle 60 percent of all Indian air traffic in terms of movements) is that the ATC system is so outdated which along with the lack of rapid-exit taxiways means that the main runaways (10/28 in DEL and 9/27 in BOM) can only handle 25 movements an hour (vs 55 at FRA, LHR, NRT, ORD, DFW etc) enough in a world with just IC, 9W and S2 operating domestic flights but nowhere enough to cope with all the new carriers. Which leads to almost every flight (other than the first few) in the morning and evening banks to spend 15-20 minutes waiting to take-off (if they're lucky) and another 15-20 minutes waiting to land. Thus sometimes a 1hr35min DEL-BOM flight can take upto 2.30-3.00hrs at peak hours.
Now, the AAI has decided to increase the runaway length (DEL) and construct rapid exit taxiways (DEL, BOM) alongside a software upgrade to bump up movement handling to 35/movements an hour. But until October/November when the runaways are refurbished expect even more delays.



A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 10):
I would love to see wher AA and CO will have to divert their flights (because I'm pretty sure that at least a few flights will get diverted for sure) and with those 777-200ER's at the edge of their range performance envelopes I wonder if they'll make Jaipur. (Maybe Chandigarh?). Seriously DEL airport is pretty much useless between 2100-1000 hours on some days in winter (It was quite funny one day last year when I had gone to the airport for a photo-shoot with IC to see all the IC and Int'l flights take off while the Jet and Sahara planes had to wait)

I was one of the fortunate people to get to land in those circumstances. Fortunate in the sense, that mine was YYZ-DEL direct A343 landing on foggy night of Dec 25,2004 quite at edge of its range. The fog was so bad that I could make out landmarks only after the plane landed. One of the persons I know was ariving on 9W from MAA around the same time. His plane flew over Radisson and then went back to AMD. Quite possibly the pilot was not trained on the system, but my AC's A343 did manage to land without hovering over the city.
rgds
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineStealthpilot From India, joined May 2004, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

Quoting Eha (Reply 6):
They have a modern ATC system at DEL and Mumbai.

Modern maybe, but not the safest.
The ATC's do a good job, but they are stretched and their training program and qualifications aren�t as comprehensive as in Europe and America.
Nothing to be scared about........ yet  Smile
-Nikhil



eP007
User currently offlineBandA From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

I know FOG is a HUGE issue with DEL atleast (never been to BOM) I have exclusively flown the JAL arrival/derparture of between 5-7pm for a long time and have never experienced FOG related delays however I have heard that the reason most other flights arrive/depart del around mid-night is because FOG usually is not as dense around DEL at that time, is this true?


"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

Quoting Eha (Reply 6):
several air miss approaching DEL happened the past years.

Define Air Miss & you'll realise it occurs the world over.Because of TCAS its noticed,not visually.
Avoidable but does happen,though the distance spacing is still a lot.


Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
Doesn't TCAS imply that both aircraft must be equipped for it to work

Even the one Aircraft with Serviceable TCAS can avoid a collosion.

Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 12):
The ATC's do a good job, but they are stretched

They are short staffed & Infrastructure with regards to Runways & Exit Taxiways dont help either.

Quoting BandA (Reply 13):
I know FOG is a HUGE issue with DEL atleast (never been to BOM

BOM has never had FOG distruption,but heavy rains can cause delays during the monsoon.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2968 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
BOM has never had FOG distruption,but heavy rains can cause delays during the monsoon.

Remember July 26-27-28, that was no disruption - that was Shutdown!



A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 15):
Remember July 26-27-28, that was no disruption - that was Shutdown

That was an Exception.That was because of 09-27 Equipment damage caused by flooding.If one has 970+ mm of rain in one place & 70+ mm in another located 30km apart.[hope that cloudburst never occurs again].
Since I started working there,As far as I remember Bom Airport was closed for a day when an IC A320 NLG collapsed in late 90s on 09-27. 14-32 was not available.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2968 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

Hawk, what are the restrictions on 14/32 because the approach and take-off paths out of that runaway are pretty bad. Does it have ILS? I know that 9/27 in DEL doesn't have ILS and is a visual approach.


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 524 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 10):
Maybe Chandigarh?).

I don't think IXC's runway can handle a B777. The best options for AA and CO would be either to Jaipur or turn around and head up to Amritsar (most likely Amritsar).


User currently offlineAirIndiaOne From India, joined Mar 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 12 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 17):
what are the restrictions on 14/32 because the approach and take-off paths out of that runaway are pretty bad. Does it have ILS?

About the restrictions...the trombay hill which stands at 977 ft AGL might seem to be a problem for heavies taking off from 14. When 32 is used, the landing aircrafts are required to confirm visual of hill after which they are cleared for final approach. Most of the time 14/32 operates only with a localizer approach.

IMHO the path is not that bad. i've seen AI 744s and VS 343 take off from 14 easily clearing the hill without needing a steep climb.

Mel, can you post the locations of the 8 new bays at BOM.



"You don't have to be crazy to be in aviation, but it helps", JRD Tata
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (8 years 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1516 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 17):

Airfield Data: 2 Runways, Fire Category IX

Noise Restrictions: minimal

Runway 1: Heading 09/27, 3,489m (11,446ft), 104/F/D/W/U, Aircraft size max: B747, Rwy 09, ILS CAT I, Lighting: CAT I, edge, threshold, end, centre line, Rwy 27, ILS CAT I, Lighting: CAT II, edge, threshold, end, centre line

Runway 2: Heading 14/32, 2,925m (9,596ft), 60/F/C/W/T, Aircraft size max: B747, Rwy 14, ILS CAT I, Lighting: CAT I, edge, threshold, end, Rwy 32, ILS CAT I, Lighting: simple approach, edge, threshold, end

Quoting AirIndiaOne (Reply 19):
Mel, can you post the locations of the 8 new bays at BOM.


As near as possible.Dont have the latest Jeppersen chart.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineHimmat01 From India, joined Dec 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

Mel,

8 new bays added on domestic side: Is the place where that broken up B737-200 of NEPC was parked along with a middle section of a F27 around a month back?

Proposed 18 bays near the AI hangars: How does AAI plan to transfer the passengers to the terminals. Is there a plan for a tunnel under the runway?

Himmat



An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
As near as possible.Dont have the latest Jeppersen chart.

Is there a similar one for BLR? It would be nice to figure out how the airport is laid out..



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2968 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1404 times:

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 21):
Proposed 18 bays near the AI hangars: How does AAI plan to transfer the passengers to the terminals. Is there a plan for a tunnel under the runway?

My question exactly. They can't have buses and other support vehicles scurrying across the runaway and to drive to the end and then turn to other side would make for a huge drive. Of course, in true desi style they might have added the bays first and thought about other problems later.



A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (8 years 12 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1394 times:

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 21):
8 new bays added on domestic side: Is the place where that broken up B737-200 of NEPC was parked along with a middle section of a F27 around a month back

A month back Then yes.

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 21):
Proposed 18 bays near the AI hangars: How does AAI plan to transfer the passengers to the terminals. Is there a plan for a tunnel under the runway

Like Cricket said....Bus Drive,a road to be built.Airport Darshan Style  Smile

Quoting Nimish (Reply 22):
Is there a similar one for BLR? It would be nice to figure out how the airport is laid out

Yes there would.I'll check if I can get one.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
25 Cricket : Well, why could I guess it. That would be one heck of a drive - it must be a good 3-4km back to Terminal 1B. And since the buses can only cross when t
26 Himmat01 : They might as well construct terminal III over there and hand it over to Jet Airways. That would reduce the burden on terminal 1B and leave a lot of
27 Cricket : And demolish half of the slums in Kurla - do you think any politician will allow it?
28 Post contains links and images BlrBird : Something similar.... to get a better view goto official web site BLR
29 HAWK21M : The Perimeter road would be expanded & then the Journey time would be 5 mins.Which is not bad considering the tour. With no Cityside access.Not possi
30 POmnath : Back to the topic, and let us not call Indian Airports "ill-equipped" out of ignorance. What are we talking about, shortage of parking bays? Well, 1 o
31 Nimish : Hey thanks for this link - this is superb! The only problem is that the image of Apron 1 seems to have a large white "hole" in the middle - does anyo
32 HAWK21M : Fantastic link. Any similiar link for BOM. regds MEL
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