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Why Only NW To Kitchener?  
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26810 posts, RR: 75
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4142 times:

Ok, so this is a totally selfish question, as my girlfriend lives in Cambridge, ON and YKF is closer than YYZ, YHM or BUF and would be a lot easier to fly into.

So, how come Northwest are the only ones flying into YKF? Why are there not a few AC regional/jazz flights, or some UAX/Eagle Turbo-Props into YKF to give NW some competition?


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

As with most questions like this, there is simply not enough demand. If airlines thought they could make money flying these kinds of routes they would. I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4105 times:

Quoting Accargo (Reply 1):
I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

I agree, look for NW to streamline and weed out all of their unprofitable routes.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Quoting N1120A (Thread starter):
So, how come Northwest are the only ones flying into YKF? Why are there not a few AC regional/jazz flights, or some UAX/Eagle Turbo-Props into YKF to give NW some competition?

As for the Canadian airlines, I have no idea why, I don't know that much about them.

As for UAX or American Eagle, they don't have the right aircraft types, nor would they bother do to the limitiations at ORD. Both are all-jet out of ORD and would not waste RJ's on this market.

Quoting Accargo (Reply 1):
As with most questions like this, there is simply not enough demand. If airlines thought they could make money flying these kinds of routes they would. I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

NW started this route about 2 years ago, and it has been performing quite well. Kitchner & Hamilton area have a lot of manufacturing & other business require air service to/from the United States. DTW is a powerful hub that can provide service to those who don't want to use YYZ.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
I agree, look for NW to streamline and weed out all of their unprofitable routes.

Again, I will reinterate my point. The frequency and type of aircraft says nothing about the viability and profitability of a city. Just because a city only gets 3 Saab's a day doesn't automatically mean it is unprofitable or likely to be dropped. They match capacity with demand. What if YKF provided a lot of feed connecting onto DTW-NRT? You and I don't know that, but don't go and make unsubstanciated comments that you expect this market to be dropped just because it is "small".


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26810 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4037 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
As for UAX or American Eagle, they don't have the right aircraft types,

Of course they have the right types. UAX uses Saabs and Brasilias and Eagle uses Saabs (ATRs too, but only out of San Juan)

Quoting Accargo (Reply 1):
If airlines thought they could make money flying these kinds of routes they would. I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

Airlines fly these routes all the time and do make money for them. It is flying routes that should be mainline with contracted RJs that loses big bucks. Given the fares that NW commands into YKF, I think they do just fine



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Of course they have the right types. UAX uses Saabs and Brasilias and Eagle uses Saabs (ATRs too, but only out of San Juan)

They don't have the right aircraft types in ORD do operate into YKF, thats all that matters. Who cares what they operate on the other side of the US


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Eagle uses Saabs (ATRs too, but only out of San Juan)

Eagle's Saabs are LAX and DFW-based; the ATRs are MIA and SJU-based. No props anywhere else. And the ATR is way too big an aircraft. It holds 68 people.



a.
User currently offlineMatt From Canada, joined May 1999, 700 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4013 times:

Well, at least Kitchener will get a bit of action this winter. Skyservice will be operating charter flights to Cancun (twice a week), to Punta Cana (once a week) and to Varadero (once a week). They start in late December and finish in late March. I imagine Skyservice will be using their A319 (or possibly A320).


Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4001 times:

As mentioned above, keep in mind that even if 12 people were on a 34-seat Saab, those 12, or most of them, might be paying big bucks on a last-minute ticket to NRT via DTW.


Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3985 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Airlines fly these routes all the time and do make money for them. It is flying routes that should be mainline with contracted RJs that loses big bucks. Given the fares that NW commands into YKF, I think they do just fine

Okay then why do you think no one else operates into YKF?

Here's another possible answer: Airlines can make more money elsewhere with their acft than they can on a route like this.

NW may be doing just fine, but is there enough demand for a second airline?


User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting Accargo (Reply 1):
As with most questions like this, there is simply not enough demand. If airlines thought they could make money flying these kinds of routes they would. I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

The demand is there, how could there not be from a city of almost 1/2 millon, it's just that most of it is directed to YYZ, with a bit going to YHM, BUF & YXU. On YKF's website, they have a report showing they believe the local O&D from Kitchener-Waterloo currently stands at 1.1 million. I doubt NW with be dropping YKF in their restructuring.

A startup airline called Air Province http://www.airprovince.ca wants to launch commuter service to YOW.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3144 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 3908 times:

Quoting N1120A (Thread starter):
how come Northwest are the only ones flying into YKF?

Be glad you got that. What if you lived in Benton Harbor, MI. (BEH),
or Lafayette, Indiana (LAF) to name a couple that have lost ALL air service.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26810 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 3892 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Of course they have the right types. UAX uses Saabs and Brasilias and Eagle uses Saabs (ATRs too, but only out of San Juan)

They don't have the right aircraft types in ORD do operate into YKF, thats all that matters. Who cares what they operate on the other side of the US

UA has turboprops out of LAX/SFO, DEN and IAD. Perhaps if they had a few out of ORD, along with dropping some frequencies on RJ routes and adding mainline, they would have more profit potential

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 11):
Be glad you got that.

It isn't me who has that, it is my girlfriend. As is, we just use YYZ or (mostly) BUF



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 3872 times:

Quoting Yow (Reply 10):
The demand is there, how could there not be from a city of almost 1/2 millon, it's just that most of it is directed to YYZ, with a bit going to YHM, BUF & YXU. On YKF's website, they have a report showing they believe the local O&D from Kitchener-Waterloo currently stands at 1.1 million.

So, if there is in fact demand there (real demand not numbers manufactured by the airport authority) then I guess other airlines are just missing the boat.  Smile

The list of cities and towns that feel they should have increased service is a very long one. The list of airlines willing to operate those increased services and operate them profitably is a lot shorter.


User currently offlineAC777LR From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 487 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3772 times:

I just heard that the Region of Waterloo is in talks with Jazz about service to YKF for next year and that they are going to expand on the terminal to acomidate more passengers.


Member since April 2000
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
Just because a city only gets 3 Saab's a day doesn't automatically mean it is unprofitable or likely to be dropped

Yep, look at LBE for example!


User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting Accargo (Reply 13):
So, if there is in fact demand there (real demand not numbers manufactured by the airport authority) then I guess other airlines are just missing the boat.

Their research was based on sales figures from local travel agencies, which would paint a pretty accurate picture of the region's traveler profile.


User currently offlineSlarty From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

Quoting N1120A (Thread starter):
Ok, so this is a totally selfish question, as my girlfriend lives in Cambridge, ON and YKF is closer than YYZ, YHM or BUF and would be a lot easier to fly into.

Since you are travelling from France, have you considered flying to YYZ and taking mini-bus to Cambridge? It should only be about 1.5 hours or so, and should provide door-to-door service.

I flew many times into YYZ in the early 80s and used these services to get to Waterloo. I remember the price as being about $40 ($C) years ago. Also, I am not sure if such a service still exists, but I would be surprised if it doesnt.


User currently offlineSmokescreen From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3488 times:

I am familiar with both Toronto and the Milton - Guelph - Cambridge area, and given traffic on Hwy 401 you can usually get from Pearson to Cambridge faster than you can get to downtown Toronto.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26810 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3476 times:

Quoting AC777LR (Reply 14):
I just heard that the Region of Waterloo is in talks with Jazz about service to YKF for next year and that they are going to expand on the terminal to acomidate more passengers.

That would be cool, because I would get UA miles too

Quoting Slarty (Reply 17):
Since you are travelling from France, have you considered flying to YYZ and taking mini-bus to Cambridge? It should only be about 1.5 hours or so, and should provide door-to-door service.

Since you are new, you are forgiven. I am an American, from Los Angeles, was living in New Orleans and am now in Boston. I fly to YYZ or BUF when going to see my girlfriend and I don't need a mini-bus/shuttle as she can just pick me up. For her, YYZ is only about 35-45 minutes, BUF is about 1.5 hours, while YKF is maybe 15-20 minutes



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting Yow (Reply 10):
A startup airline called Air Province http://www.airprovince.ca wants to launch commuter service to YOW.

Good luck to them. Hopefully they'll fare better than Trillium Air did.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3373 times:

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 8):
As mentioned above, keep in mind that even if 12 people were on a 34-seat Saab, those 12, or most of them, might be paying big bucks on a last-minute ticket to NRT via DTW.

Why would anyone want to fly to Tokyo from Kitchener via Detroit? They can drive to YYZ in an hour or so and fly to NRT non-stop; thus avoiding the hassle of US customs and immigration. Although, if there was enough of a fare saving it would be worth while I suppose.


User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3075 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3365 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Just remember whats in Waterloo...

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 21):
Why would anyone want to fly to Tokyo from Kitchener via Detroit? They can drive to YYZ in an hour or so and fly to NRT non-stop; thus avoiding the hassle of US customs and immigration. Although, if there was enough of a fare saving it would be worth while I suppose

My bet... they were all in a hurry from that rather large campus in Waterloo... you know the one, 3 letters, pocket devices... also NW DTW-NRT tends to be more convieniently scheduled than AC from YYZ.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 22):
My bet... they were all in a hurry from that rather large campus in Waterloo... you know the one, 3 letters, pocket devices

I always thought that was the 2 letter one (UW), rather than the 3 letter one (WLU)  Smile


User currently offlineAC777LR From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 487 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3342 times:

YKF has a lot to offer as far as business goes, there is Toyota, Rim, and ATS that are all around that airport.


Member since April 2000
25 YOW : ...or Quikair for that matter. A couple of keys to success would a) the company be properly funded with sufficient startup capital to sustain the ine
26 Post contains images Slarty : Since you're not new, I can ask a noob question? Why do you have a French flag indicating you are 'From France' then? Are you a conehead? :
27 MattRB : Just pondering.. What do you think the chances a VLJ airtaxi service would have, operating out of YKF? Maybe running something like an Adam A700 or Ec
28 Post contains images N1120A : Naturally, and I consume am currently consuming mass quantities
29 Post contains images Stirling : I get a sardonic grin every time someone asks the question: "Why doesn't Airline ZZ fly to AAA airport?" The standard response, no matter how intellig
30 Post contains images Accargo : Okay Stirling, where would Jazz, UAX, and anyone else fly to from YKF? You didn't like the answer given, but sometimes it is as simple as "the airlin
31 Post contains images ScarletHarlot : I think he was referring to RIM, Research in Motion, and the Blackberry.
32 Post contains images N1120A : I am not Stirling. UAX could fly to ORD, AC/Jazz could fly turboprops to YYZ/YUL Yet Hamilton gets WS and AC service Actually it was more "I want mor
33 Post contains images Accargo : It's likely a 20 minute flight to YYZ from YKF, are you willing to pay what the airlines will charge to turn a profit on that short a route? As for O
34 AC777LR : Hey ACCargo, I heard through the Region that they are in talks with Jazz about service to YKF....but where would this service go to? YOW, YUL?
35 N1120A : UAX runs 10-15 minute flight time flights all over Southern California, and has successfully for years. I am not talking about sending UltraRapidAir
36 MattRB : How much of that MSY-YKF ticket was tax tho? The addition of transborder taxes generally adds a ton to the price of a ticket.
37 N1120A : Ok then, let me put it this way. MSY-YKF was about twice as expensive as MSY-YYZ
38 Post contains images Stirling : I don't have a clue. But you did a smashing job of explaining it here: And it only required 4 sentences! So I would I be guessing correctly that YKF
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