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Some Perspective On JBU292  
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

Tonight's JBU292 incident (still in progress as I write this) should serve as an excellent example of widespread media idiocy, and the effect that media misconceptions have on the public.

The main thread on Anet has been moving so fast that most folks are not even reading responses, and as a result, the same questions are getting asked over and over.

A few basics, in the context of an airline operation...

-The flight was BUR-JFK, and thus heavy with fuel for the long flight.

-If you can't retract the gear, you're not going to fly on to your distant destination of JFK. The additional drag would run you out of fuel long before JFK. (See Hapag Lloyd's A310 at VIE some years ago.)

-They can't dump fuel, as the A320 has no fuel dump system installed, nor is one needed. This is an automatic assumption that the media makes--all aircraft can dump fuel. Nope!

-The aircraft can't return to BUR. Runways are too short.

-ONT has one of two main runways closed, so they're down to one. SAN, SNA, and LGB are also essentially single runway airports, and should you divert to one of these places, the airport then closes completely.

-SBD and PMD are seldom-used airports that could handle the flight's landing, but the airline preferred LAX due its ARFF capabilities.

-NKX and EDW are also possibilties, and would sure solve the problem of the media helos. ARFF should be just as good as LAX.

-ARFF folks don't normally "foam" runways (like they always seem to do in the movies) as spark suppression isn't always a sure thing, and the foam can adversely affect the aircraft's handling on the runway (think slippery runways.) This is another media assumption--runways are always foamed. Nope!

-Foaming a thin portion on the runway right along the centerline could be helpful in this case, not for spark supression, but for lubrication. After they get the main gears on, and get the nose gear on, the foam may be enough lubrication to allow the aircraft to bleed off speed and minimize the chance of the nose gear digging in and snapping off, with the fuselage hitting the runway abruptly.

-Sometime, nose gears do snap. AWA has one do so with an A320 that landed at PHX a few years ago, and other than a few evacuation-related injuries, nobody was hurt.

-Numerous jetliners have landed partial gear-up over the years, and while abnormal, it's not the imminent doom scenario that the media is hyping. As the A320 circles, burning fuel, the greater danger in the area is from all the damn media helos buzzing around.

-You can bet your life on the fact that the various media outlets will look for any real/imagined "expert" they can.

-Finally, you can just just about ignore anything you see on TV. Some of it may indeed be "factual" but they don't understand the context of much of anything...

And now, they just landed, and rolled out, all without collapsing the nose gear, and without the airplane blowing up. I hope the media's not too disappointed...

[Edited 2005-09-22 03:41:10]

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Thread starter):
I hope the media's not too disappointed...

Nope - because now they have 139 'survivors' to recount their harrowing tale, enough for at least 8 hours more of drivel.

Excellent post - thanks for the details

(and I'm not discounting what the folks on the plane just went through, they have every right to be shaken - just commenting about how the media will play it up and blow it out of proportion)



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2088 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 1):
Nope - because now they have 139 'survivors' to recount their harrowing tale, enough for at least 8 hours more of drivel.

Good Lord! I hadn't thought of that hazard. Time to put in a DVD or two....  Wink


User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2044 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Thread starter):
Numerous jetliners have landed partial gear-up over the years, and while abnormal, it's not the imminent doom scenario that the media is hyping

This type of incident can't be any worse than having the brakes lock. I'm sure that sort of thing is within the capability of every airliner.

It's still kind of exciting to see live coverage of an airplane landing. I don't see anything wrong with that. I wish they would show airplanes landing every night on the news.


User currently offlineSeptember11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

what a day for LAX and jetBlue ....


Airliners.net of the Future
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Finally, a shot of the end of the runway so we have some idea how much was used. Long runways are always good  Smile

User currently offlineQuestAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Although unrelated, this is on the heels of B6's announcement that they would most likely post their first loss ever. Hmmm.....


'Do we carry rich people on our flights? Yes, I flew on one this morning and I�m very rich.' - Michael O'Leary
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1992 times:

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 5):
Finally, a shot of the end of the runway so we have some idea how much was used. Long runways are always good

If you know your runway markings, you know how far they were from the end of the runway. It stopped at the first set of warning markers... IIRC, that means 1000 ft. remaining?



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

Bob Hager on MSNBC just went totally freakin' nuts. He said the plane could have dragged a wing on the runway and flipped over.

User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1969 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 2):
Good Lord! I hadn't thought of that hazard. Time to put in a DVD or two...

I'd suggest Airplane or Airplane 2: The Sequel  Wink



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1958 times:

Quoting QuestAir (Reply 6):
Although unrelated, this is on the heels of B6's announcement that they would most likely post their first loss ever. Hmmm.....

No "Hmmm..." needed, purely coincidental.  Wink

I will make a prediction though. How long do you want to bet it'll be before someone tries to link tonight's JBU922 and some of their other BUR-JFK flights that haven't been able to make it non-stop?  Yeah sure

Apples and oranges, I know, but I'm sure someone will try...


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 8):
Bob Hager on MSNBC just went totally freakin' nuts. He said the plane could have dragged a wing on the runway and flipped over.

Funny you mention him. I was at an NTSB Hearing some years ago (can't recall which crash it was in regard to), and watched him do a "cut-in" for their nightly news. Before they went "live", he was chatting with the techs and camera guy, using what I'd consider to be a "normal" tone of voice and pacing. He goes "live" and delivers the segment with his usual on-screen style and persona. He tosses it back to NY, and is off-air, and he's back to his normal tone of voice and persona again. I've seen this with some other reporters as well.

Seems like it's more important to sell the "sizzle" versus the steak....


User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

I agree completely with you thesis...the chick on CNN (LA Buereu) mentioned that the ENTIRE CITY was on FULL TACTICAL ALERT. WTF??

-IR


User currently offlineNRTfan From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1652 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Thread starter):
Finally, you can just just about ignore anything you see on TV. Some of it may indeed be "factual" but they don't understand the context of much of anything

First of all, kudos to the crew for a safe landing. Right on the centerline--beautiful.

I watched about more than an hour of MSNBC coverage, mostly because I was working out at the gym. I despise cable news and this just confirmed a lot of my feelings. Some highlights:

--Safest thing to do would be to retract gear and do belly landing but that's not possible because of gear.

--Problem with gear was discovered when it was lowered. Apparently gear was up during taxi and takeoff and lowered later.

--"Rear nosegear"

--Thanks to completley uniform Airbus cockpits, 320 pilots could also fly the A380, "Which of coure has yet to fly." This came from NBC aviation "expert" Tom Costello

--Airplane has been dumping fuel and will land in 5-10 minutes. Actually it can't dump fuel and landed more than an hour later.

--Rescuers will surely foam the runway (isn't this practice pretty much never used anymore?)

--Constant banter about how passegers could be watching MSNBC on their PTVs. True, but at times shamelessly self-promotional and typical of cable news failure to focus on important aspects of an issue.

I 100 percent understand that everyone is not an aviation expert. Beyond what I learn from A.Net, *I* am in no way shape or form an aviation expert. But facile, incompotent newsheads whose main skill is taking one or two pieces of information and repeating them over and over and over again, every 2 minutes (time of take off, destination, number of passengers) for 3 hours while providing lots of bogus information--do a service to no one.


User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2543 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1533 times:

I cringed at Hager's line that Aviation fuel is extremely flammable. What does he think about all those Gasoline filled tanker trucks cruising our highways. They must be like rolling atom bombs.

Everytime I listen to a media aviation 'expert' I really wonder how much of the rest of the news are they totaly screwing up?


User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2434 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1473 times:

Watched the whole thing live. The no reverse thrust issue was addressed on another thread- apparently it was to help keep the C/G aft in order to lessen the weight on the nose gear.

Is this also why I saw no use of speed brakes as well?


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Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineAIRBUSRIDER From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 208 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

Paula Zahn at CNN is another clueless reporter. There were too many rediculous comments she made and dumb questions to even post here, I just could not take it any more and switched channels. The only "expert" any of the Newscasts brought in was Captain Al Haynes. It is refreshing to hear someone speak about a subject that they actually know about................Anyhow, the media are bloodthirsty a-holes and I bet they were dissapointed there was not any loss of life............I say, screw the media and GREAT JOB JBL pilots !!


No Officer, I am not a Terrorist !
User currently offlineLFutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3339 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1351 times:

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 8):
Bob Hager on MSNBC just went totally freakin' nuts. He said the plane could have dragged a wing on the runway and flipped over.

Larry King was asking such dumb questions also! the idiocy of the question's he asked...


Leo



Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
User currently offlineRAMPRAT980 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1331 times:

Quoting AIRBUSRIDER (Reply 16):
Anyhow, the media are bloodthirsty a-holes and I bet they were dissapointed there was not any loss of life

Believe me there are many T.V. station producers who deep down are upset that it didn't turn into a catastrophe. Also can the media find some way to blame Bush for this incident ?



With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
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