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US Airlines Transatlantic Service Quality  
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4867 times:

Hey,

it has been quite some time that I took a US Airliner on a Transatlantic hop. I was just booking a ticket for my dad for Nov and realized that US Airliners are VERY expansive, as compared to the European Counterparts and some Asian Airlines - I am really surprised, why in general pay more for worse service??? Just to give you an example:

- No US Airlines below EUR 520 incl. tax for FRA-YYZ (UA, CO, US, NW, DL - the latter much more expansive). The cheapest was US, the others were higher
- European Airlines beginning aorund EUR 450 (BA, KL, AF)
- Nonstops AC and LH cheapest around EUR 510
- other alternative: AI BHX-YYZ GBP 260 - bot no interlining FRA-BHX (too bad they or PK don't operate on FRA-YYZ)
- Air Transat would have probably been the cheapest, but he didn't want to

Finally, I found a KL flight for EUR 420, which I booked. However, the first two legs FRA-DTW-YYZ are operated by NW, the return with KL via AMS. So the flight is via the US. Since it was significantly cheaper, he said OK - elsewise we started to avoid those trips via the US after really bad security screening experiences, upto harrasment at US Airports and with US Airliners)

In general, prices are a little higher due to fuel prices. Now, last flight I took with a US based airline was UA FRA-IAD-LGA / SFO-FRA. This was after 9/11. However, UA was quite decent that time, in my eyes - but security with AA (Domestic in JFK) was just insane. Now so many people told me and so many threads on the decline of service on Transatlantic hops of US Airliners.. how have things developed?

- Still free booze (yes/no -- who?). If not, he will be unhappy Big grin
- Service in general?
- How does the international transfer work? Does US-Canada count as domestic, and does custom have to be cleared in the US, or at the point of destination
- Transfer: how long does it take in DTW (minimum time)? I mean he has plenty of time, but still I wonder whether seamless transfers are possible nowadays in the US?

Thanks for some info/opinion. And yes.. my dad will fly a NW DC9 from DTW-YYZBig grin

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2901 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4781 times:
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I just got back from a trip to Eastern Europe last Saturday, so I have some "fresh" information for you...  Smile

Just for a frame of reference, we flew PDX-ATL-CDG on DL, and then CDG-BUD on Air France. The return was vice-versa.

Here's how Delta shaped up:
-No free booze unless you're in BusinessElite. They wanted 5 Dollars or 5 Euros per drink.

-Service: Ground was hurried and rather rude on both sides. They want your butt in the seat and buckled in right this damn second. Inflight was nothing special. No hot towels in coach. Polite, but not overly attentive. Food was airline quality, but the snacks were fairly substantial and quick. One thing Delta's always good at is coming around a lot with beverages, sometimes with the cart, other times with coffee/tea/water on trays. That was nice. IFE was a few movies, audio channels, and moving map. Again, nothing special. The 777s we flew were actually completely filthy on the outside, but OK inside.

- US-Canada is still international. Where you clear depends a whole lot on the route that you fly (and I think your carrier, but I'm not sure).

- Detroit is a mystery... never been  Smile


User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 5 days ago) and read 4729 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Thread starter):

Hey,

it has been quite some time that I took a US Airliner on a Transatlantic hop. I was just booking a ticket for my dad for Nov and realized that US Airliners are VERY expansive, as compared to the European Counterparts and some Asian Airlines - I am really surprised, why in general pay more for worse service??? Just to give you an example:

- No US Airlines below EUR 520 incl. tax for FRA-YYZ (UA, CO, US, NW, DL - the latter much more expansive). The cheapest was US, the others were higher
- European Airlines beginning aorund EUR 450 (BA, KL, AF)
- Nonstops AC and LH cheapest around EUR 510
- other alternative: AI BHX-YYZ GBP 260 - bot no interlining FRA-BHX (too bad they or PK don't operate on FRA-YYZ)
- Air Transat would have probably been the cheapest, but he didn't want to

It appears NW is the least expensive. For NW/KL it is NW that sets prices for eastbound trips USA-EU-USA, KL does that for westbound trips.

Quote:

Finally, I found a KL flight for EUR 420, which I booked. However, the first two legs FRA-DTW-YYZ are operated by NW, the return with KL via AMS. So the flight is via the US. Since it was significantly cheaper, he said OK - elsewise we started to avoid those trips via the US after really bad security screening experiences, upto harrasment at US Airports and with US Airliners)

DTW is a VERY nice airport.

Quote:

In general, prices are a little higher due to fuel prices. Now, last flight I took with a US based airline was UA FRA-IAD-LGA / SFO-FRA. This was after 9/11. However, UA was quite decent that time, in my eyes - but security with AA (Domestic in JFK) was just insane. Now so many people told me and so many threads on the decline of service on Transatlantic hops of US Airliners.. how have things developed?

- Still free booze (yes/no -- who?). If not, he will be unhappy Big grin

free on both NW and KL

Quote:

- Service in general?

Standard NW/KL service.
Eastbound: dinner (chicken or pasta) and a breakfast (jogurt, OJ, buscuit w/ egg )
Westbound: dinner and small pizza + ice cream

FA's browse the aircraft regurarly. They offer water and OJ. NW A333s have AVOD, which is very nice.

Quote:

- How does the international transfer work? Does US-Canada count as domestic, and does custom have to be cleared in the US, or at the point of destination
- Transfer: how long does it take in DTW (minimum time)? I mean he has plenty of time, but still I wonder whether seamless transfers are possible nowadays in the US?

DTW gotta be the easiest airport. I think he will have to clear the customs. It typically takes about an hour in DTW.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4586 times:
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Out of all the US carriers I think you'll find the service on UA to be the best on Transatlantic/pacific out of all of them.

In my opinion the rest:
AA, DL, NW, US. I think out of this bunch AA is better than most but isn't consistent at all. Food is pretty minimal even on the hot meal services, flight crews are very senior for the most part and don't want to be bothered and this includes the front cabins. I believe that DL outshines AA on inflight service in BIZElite compared to premium cabins on AA. NW & US are also probably better than AA.

No complimentary booze anymore on any US carrier internationally.

International carriers are the way to go with the exception of IB. I have yet to hear anything on a positive note about them as well as they seem to be about as frugal as the US carriers.

LACA773


User currently offlineAirlineslover From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4571 times:

From my point of view this is what I can say:
My flights between America and Europe had been in USA Airlines most of the time and I can tell you that is better choose the national airline of the country that you have to flight I mean, if you have to fly USA-Germany choose LH or USA-France with AF.... the only airline that really YUCKS!!!!!!! Is IB's flts in whatever route that they have.... bad service, bad smells, bad meals and bad humor of the people who works in this "airline", I live now in Italy but I am Mexican and I flew several times MEX-YMX-MAD with IB's flt and always had a really bad experience with them.... now times changed and I choose AM's flt, but I always recomended to people who wants to fly to Europe that they have to fly in the national airline of the country that they want to visit (except Spain and IB's flts).... Cheers


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4458 times:

Thanks for your replies!

Quoting Jano (Reply 2):
For NW/KL it is NW that sets prices for eastbound trips USA-EU-USA, KL does that for westbound trips.

Jano, thanks for your detailed info. Now, this is surprising! Why not other way round (NW for trips originating from US, KL from Europe)?

Quoting Jano (Reply 2):
DTW is a VERY nice airport.

In 1997, it wasn't (I transferred from a NW DC-10 to a 727.. those were the days  Smile ). Good to know it has improved!

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 3):
No complimentary booze anymore on any US carrier internationally.

Wow! This is surprising! Even on Transpacific? Btw, your info does not match the one of Jano.


Now, on another note. In the unlikely event that NW gets liquidated (Ch 7?), what happens? the ticket is issued by KL. I guess my dad would be rebooked on the latter, unlike if he held a NW ticket?

I hope this doesn't happen though! No loss of employment in the US airline industry please - we need a strong sector globally!


User currently offlineN801NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4409 times:

The Northwest WORLDGateway @ DTW opend 2/2002. It is very nice and very easy to deal with. My only international transit there has been to YYZ so I cannot tell you about customs/immigration there. NW/KL and UA are the only two US carriers that still have free booze in TATL Y-class. It is $5 (cash only) on US/Can. flights.

It is extemely unlikely NW will be liquidated.


User currently offlineBilly From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 895 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

I would never transit through the US to Canada or Mexico. In some cases you need to apply for a visa to change planes. As there is no airside transfer facility in the US you have to enter the US. As far as I am concerned, I would rather make my connection in Europe rather than in the US, even if that means missing the chance to ride a DC-9.

I have always found the US product more basic than the European equivalents. But most other comparisons are very subjective, depending on the aircraft, crew and your mood on the day. I like BMI, but they do not offer YYZ now.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6496 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 3):
No complimentary booze anymore on any US carrier internationally.

Not true: NW and believe UA do not charge for booze. The NW policy was sated a few times in messages just before yours. Suggest you go back and read them!


User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

I think it's worth taking a nonstop from Frankfurth to Toronto. The hassle of flying to Canada by way of the United States can be overwhelming.

Here is how it will work in terms of "red tape"

1. Interview and baggage inspection (by hand) prior to check-in
2. European airport security
3. (Select airports) Second frisking/baggage inspection for US departures
4. (At the gate) Interview and additional frisking, hand baggage inspection, and/or shoe inspection

Flight

5. US customs and immigration
6. TSA Security screening
7. Flight to Canada.
8. Canadian customs and immigration.


User currently offlineJumpseat70 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4375 times:

You people kill me. You look for the least expensive fare, yet you want free booze. Those days are over. Read it and weep. You get what you pay for.

User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4289 times:
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Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):

Bobnwa: You don't have to be sarcastic and talk to me like you're my parent. My understanding was that they did charge for booze. What I should have written was the majority, charge for booze. Sorry Daddy.

Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 10):

Jumpseat, right on. You hit it on the bullseye. I think the majority of people that get really upset are those who end up paying a full Y fare, vs. the heavily discounted fares. Those who are upset about shotty and frugal service in P/J cabins I feel have justified complaints.

LACA773


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 10):
You people kill me. You look for the least expensive fare, yet you want free booze. Those days are over. Read it and weep. You get what you pay for.

Bullocks. So why do Asian carriers offer cheaper prices and free complements? And, I did not say I want free booze, I asked whether it is provided.

Quoting Mats (Reply 9):
I think it's worth taking a nonstop from Frankfurth to Toronto. The hassle of flying to Canada by way of the United States can be overwhelming.

You have provided damn good arguments! In future, I will pay a little more instead (personally). My dad, however, has the position that it is his vacation and that he does ot have anything to hide. He might change it though after all the hassles he will have to undergo. A good experience for him (he hasn't been in the states for years, and he will realize how the "liberal" climate has changed form teh beginning of the 80s, when we moved).


User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4248 times:

Maybe it is because all the fares are similar except US Airlines have more taxes added to them - for connecting in a US airport with "september 11th fees" and other such charges. from what ive seen on this side - european airlines are about on par with american ones. ORD-LHR will cost about the same on AA,UA,BA

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 5):


Quote:

Quoting Jano (Reply 2):
For NW/KL it is NW that sets prices for eastbound trips USA-EU-USA, KL does that for westbound trips.

Jano, thanks for your detailed info. Now, this is surprising! Why not other way round (NW for trips originating from US, KL from Europe)?

No. It's no surpise. I guess I should have worded it better.

NW sets prices for trips with the outbound leg being eastbound, that means USA -> EU -> USA, which means trips originating in the USA.

KL sets prices for trips with the outbound let being wetsbound: EU-> USA -> EU, which means trips originating in the EU.

KL and NW have a Joint Venture for TATL operations. Both KL and NW adhere to the same standard of service, with a few exceptions, like on KL WBC one gets those small houses as "thank you" for flying WBC.

Out of all hubs where I have been in the USA (ATL, IAD, ORD, MEM, PHL, DTW) the NW's DTW is definitelly the easiest to transfer.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting Jano (Reply 14):
No. It's no surpise. I guess I should have worded it better.

Sorry.. no my bug. I did not read your response properly  Wink


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17069 posts, RR: 66
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 10):
You people kill me. You look for the least expensive fare, yet you want free booze. Those days are over. Read it and weep. You get what you pay for.

I agree with your argument in principle. However if Euro and Asian carriers, who operate the same routes, have free booze, it's understandable that this is a competitive disadvantage for the US carriers. On VS, you get a free amenity kit, kick-ass IFE and free alcohol in Monkey Class. But then again you get smaller pitch than on AA. So the informed traveler will decide which he or she prefers.

Somewhat self serving but I think AA Exec Plats should get free wine regardless of class Big grin


For the record, AA over the pond ranges from barely acceptable to pretty good. Unfortunately this very much depends on the crew in general and the F/A in your section in particular. I have always found that the average Eurocarrier is just a little bit better, on average. While most US F/As are very nice, they tend not to be very service minded. Some are downright awful. These crews, with their seniority contracts, tend to be the downfall of the US carriers when it comes to the in flight experience.

As I have repeatedly stated on this board: If you don't measure and compensate cabin crews at least in part based on service quality, service will suffer. Why should they do that little bit extra if they never get recognized for it?

The point when I finally realized this was a losing cause was when I got reply from AA customer service stating (based on my inquiry) that they couldn't mandate their F/As to smile. That's just absurd! I'm not saying they need to paint the smiles on but a little smile goes a long way.


Signed "A Very Loyal AA Customer, for better or for worse"



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

I don't like however how people stick their ideology about getting free stuff and not paying for it into seeminly every thread related to service quality.

NW should be good, 333 is a nice plane, equivalent to, if not nicer than KL.



What now?
User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4127 times:

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 3):
Out of all the US carriers I think you'll find the service on UA to be the best on Transatlantic/pacific out of all of them.

In my opinion the rest:
AA, DL, NW, US. I think out of this bunch AA is better than most but isn't consistent at all. Food is pretty minimal even on the hot meal services, flight crews are very senior for the most part and don't want to be bothered and this includes the front cabins. I believe that DL outshines AA on inflight service in BIZElite compared to premium cabins on AA. NW & US are also probably better than AA.

What, no review on CO? CO is consistently rated as one of the highest North American Carriers for service. Maybe you haven't flown across the Atlantic or Pacific with us.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):
....UA do not charge for booze

Yes, they do.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 12):
So why do Asian carriers offer cheaper prices and free complements? And, I did not say I want free booze, I asked whether it is provided.

It called "Government subsidies"!


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 18):
It called "Government subsidies"!

As the infant industry argument suggests, a sector that has not fulfilled its potential can receive subsidies, without distorting the market. No matter, even Asian Airlines without subsidies (Jet Airways, Singapore (?) AL) do much better, and even if some airlines did not receive subsidies, they would do better. You do not consider that the situation in their home-market countries is often different and hence legitimates the use of subsidies.. and: when the US decides to have a competition-led approach, why should Asian airlines be forced to do so to (OK, there are WTO laws)? But air transport has a different function in some countries, that goes beyond the business ethos


User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3953 times:
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Quoting CO767FA (Reply 18):

CO767FA: My apologies to you and the rest of our friends @ CO!! I actually didn't forget about you guys now that I think of it. I was mixing you in with the international carriers as your inflight service far out weighs that of any of the US carriers by a long shot with UA in a far second. You guys are the best in regards to the domestics on transatlantic/pacific flights.

Regards,
LACA773


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4113 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

Just to set the record straight on UA...

They started charging for TATL. TPAC is still comp though.


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 21):
They started charging for TATL. TPAC is still comp though.

Forgive my ignorance, but...TATL, TPAC, eh?



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

my last trip with an US Airline was nearly 2 years ago was with AA from LHR-MIA and BOG-MIA-LHR.... the ground service in MIA was a horror... the service on the B777 flights from and to LHR was good, good food but no free beer Sad . The BOG-MIA service on B767 wasn´t bad just the FA´s were not the greatest...

The last time I used DL on transatlantic was 5 years ago... the service was these days good, but AF (I had AF flights on the west bound flights...were much better)

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLongbowPilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 577 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3880 times:
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Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 10):
You people kill me. You look for the least expensive fare, yet you want free booze. Those days are over. Read it and weep. You get what you pay for.

Amen!

I'm glad that planes have PTVs and Ammentities that provide the common day tech junkies with something to do on a flight. Me I'm still partial to my walkman and a book. Screw the 5 in screens and the impending head ache that come with trying to watch them.

It seems people believe that an airline runs on the alcohol service. I'm surprised considering that jet fuel is the reason we have high prices as well.. Maybe we should serve Jet Fuel for drinks and put the vodka in the tank. Oh well, Asian carriers are nice, but come on people... When was the last time you flew an "Asian" carrier domestically. Hullo, I think they are mostly INternational routes (as the thread states). Just my 2 cents... (left over from my last plane ride).


25 CO767FA : Trans-Atlantic and Trans-Pacific
26 Post contains images SATX : Thanks! I should have figured that out, but for some reason it just didn't click. So, that means we have... NW free on TATL and TPAC UA free on TPAC
27 AC787 : For these reasons I would rlly recomment against flying NW to toronto. I flew YOW-DTW-FRA on NW last winter and was impressed with the service. Howev
28 Stoicescu : I plan to go in vacation for 3 weeks to Romania around December 15th. I found a ticket on Yahoo Travel 770.25 $ round trip with US Airways. I will fly
29 Vega : The flight to Rome on the 330 will be as pleasant as on any other U.S. based airline. I have flown this route numerous times in Envoy (Business) Clas
30 Post contains images Mrniji : Yes, as said before, I agree. However, I proceeded this time. Let's see what daddy says. As he will travel FRA-YYZ more often in future, it might aff
31 Jumpseat70 : Dear Stoicescu, I have two things to say to you....LOST LUGGAGE and DEAD MEAT if you have a problem with your ticket. You better hang on to your bags
32 Starlionblue : All subsidies distort the market. However, there are cases when it could be argued they are a good thing. This is a very fuzzy area of economic theor
33 Post contains links and images Mrniji : I agree with the quintessence of your statement. However, the airline industry is a very special case in some senses. Hence, one can have a proper de
34 Stoicescu : My connection time in Philadelphia is around 3 hours and 20 minutes so I should be fine. I will have only carryon bagage so that won't be a problem. M
35 Starlionblue : I agree the airline industry may be a special case, but you can find examples for the contrary. For example, Virgin Atlantic, Jetblue, Southwest, Rya
36 Post contains links and images SR 103 : Hey Subin, As you know, I have done my fair share of NW/KL flying over the last few years. While most of your questions have been answered, I figure I
37 777Purser : With seniority systems we are just a number. Never recognized UNLESS you..yes you, the passenger goes out of your way and write to the company when y
38 777Purser : Yup, no free beer. And you know what? I am GLAD. Passengers on my flight Bogota based FA's. I have to say that when I have non rev (often) to South A
39 Starlionblue : I agree that sending good feedback is important, and I sometimes do. If you want to implement measurement by customer satisfaction, peer assesment wo
40 Post contains images Mrniji : And this makes you MUCH stronger! Real life experience of your economic background knowledge! Some "personal empirical testing" Congrats for that..!
41 LACA773 : 777Purser, I personally apreciate what you have to say about what you have observed about sloppy, sub-standard service from a TRUE airline profession
42 SA7700 : Funny that you should make such a statement. I checked my luggage in at SYD, through to SFO. Got on the plane/s and flew SYD-JNB-DKR-JFK-SFO for abou
43 Starlionblue : This lost bag thing is just like the bad F/A. The bag will arrive on time and in one piece the vast majority of times, and yet pax will only remember
44 777Purser : Our Union has a department called "Professional Standards" Incidents are reported to them and the Union contacts the FA to discuss and hopefully reso
45 Dfwagt : I am inclined to agree with you on this matter. I am AA ground staff at DFW, and let me tell you it is very hard to keep people like you comming back
46 777Purser : Yes, I am all for charging for alcohol, incidents had gone down since. We are in the transportation business and while we want to offer you a curteou
47 Brons2 : Yahoo Travel is actually powered by Travelocity. I have used both Yahoo Travel and Travelocity many times to my satisfaction. This year I booked BA B
48 Starlionblue : While unions are no doubt beneficial in many ways, I feel you are painting a little too rosy a picture. If the union protects bad (not weak, bad) emp
49 Vincewy : Efficiency, low frequency-ensuring seats are filled, using widebodies for both long haul and regional. Correct, even worse, people want the most conv
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