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LLW LUN HRE BLZ MPM BEW To Europe  
User currently offlineQM001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 2034 times:

Hi all,

I am struggling to understand why no major Euro carriers (except BA to HRE and LUN) are serving these cities. In addition I see a great gap in the market for a business carriers based on the Privatair model to operate these services for Business traffic. I am certain that these flights would make some good money especially if they operated in a partnership with a major carrier " a la " DEDICATE" . These cities are by no means small in terms of business traffic and a 1 or 2 times weekly service would do very well.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Any ideas which aircraft have the range?

Kind regards,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)


I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (8 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

Quoting QM001 (Thread starter):
Any ideas which aircraft have the range?

Distances from FRA (selected for comparative reasons only; CDG +70mi, AMS +200 mi approx) according to Great Circle Mapper:
LLW 4653 mi
LUN 4659 mi
HRE 4876 mi
BLZ 4801 mi
MPM 5431 mi
BEW 5069 mi

Apart from the usual long-haul a/c´s, BBJ/BBJ2, A319CJ (and A319LR ?) would do okay.
No idea on profitability.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19229 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

There is the possibility of niche markets from London to formerly British colonies (or whatever) in Africa and specific cities within those countries, like GBO (Botswana); LLW (Malawi); KAN (Nigeria); FNA (S. Leone); Bangul (Gambia); DLA (Cameroon); LBV (Gabon); Mombassa (Kenya); etc. In addition, cities like Zanzibar (Tanzania; mainly, perhaps, for tourism) could possibly be served, as could Kilimanjaro (Tanazania). A 752-sized aircraft, ideally with winglets, would be good for these routes, although it wouldn't be able to carry much cargo. A twice- to thrice-weekly frequency, depending upon the route, would probably be all that would be possible. Some of the cities would probably have to be combined to make them viable.

There might also be sufficient demand to begin a non-stop service to either Shylet or Chittagong in Bangladesh (a number of Bangladeshis living in the UK, or those of Bangladeshi origins, come from one of those cities, but I can't remember which. And no, I don't mean Dhaka).

[Edited 2005-09-23 15:46:05]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (8 years 12 months 6 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

I don't think that there is enough demand to justify a direct service from most European cities to LLW LUN HRE BLZ BEW.

There is a three times a week service on TP to MPM in a triangle with JNB.

Pe@rson. I think you are talking of Sylet (ZYL).



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 1929 times:

I think SA, KQ, and ET all offer good connecting traffic to points in Europe.

User currently offlineQM001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1877 times:

AF 022,

You are correct, however one must remember that all these options are via 1 or two points in Europe. I think there is a definate niche in offering triangle services for major point to point.

There is money to be made here boys and girls, and it surprises me that BA, AF and KL haven't seen this?

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)



I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1877 times:

BA has shown little interest in developing its African services and in fact, with the exception of BMed services, BA have being cutting back African routes for years either downgrading equipment or cutting frequencies or as in Lillongwe and Banjul, stopping altogether.

Despite increasing political pressure and outrage from some people, BA still continue to serve Harare, as though the country was a big friend of BA.


User currently offlineQM001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1839 times:

Orion 737,

Thats exactly why I believe that there is a large gap in this kind of market. Number one the yields are not bad, and there is a good percentage of premium traffic, in addition I would imagine that most pax who loyally used to fly KLM, AF or BA, will gladly swing business around if someone could offer a decent service.

I think that maybe QM or TM should take a close look at this business model!

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)



I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlineBAxMAN From St. Helena, joined May 2004, 671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 6):
Despite increasing political pressure and outrage from some people, BA still continue to serve Harare, as though the country was a big friend of BA.

And why shouldn't BA serve Harare? I won't for a second speak in favour of Robert Mugabe but, in the grand scheme of things, he is a tadpole in he hierachy of despots. If we follow your logic, we should suspend UK air services to China, Saudi Arabia and Iran as well.

As far as abandoning Africa goes, LOS and ABV have seen in increase in services. Comair helps out a great deal to Namibia and Zambia and, before their troubles, Regional Air helped out around East Africa.

Whilst planes and slots at LHR are at a minimum, it is unlikely that the likes of Malawi, Gabon, Senegal or Gambia will see any direct service. Connecting traffic is essential for these routes so LGW service is also unlikely.

As Pe@rson said, these destinations now are a bit of a niche service and the European majors do not seem to fulfil this niche.

As ever, oil talks so I would not be surprised to see the weekly Angola service increase nor would I be surprised to see services start to some countries who stumble upon more oil cash than they can stuff into their Swiss bank accounts. Flights to a countries former colonial master, though, no longer seem to guarantee enough bucks on this basis alone.



I need to get laid
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1807 times:

I think MPM doesn't see other European airlines than TP because for many MPM passengers it's quite easy to take advantage of SA flights everywhere if flying via JNB.
The lucrative MPM - LIS market is covered by Air Mozambique and Air Portugal and may support a few frecuencies more.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1763 times:

BAxMan: Air France does very well serving ALL of its ex colonies in Africa and makes heaps of money. SN does the same in their ex colonial destinations like Kishasa and Kigali.

They make money from these routes, they dont serve them out of pride (not soely anyway)


User currently offlineAA B777-200 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2001, 505 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1763 times:

Demand.... Lack of high yield traffic? Over the last years KLM has withdrawn direct service into Harare, Lusaka and Lilongwe. I guess the flights weren't that profitable. And since KLM created an African hub with KQ I can understand them not making any attempts to restart services to these cities.

Let's just see how KLM will perform on teh ADD, KRT en EBB flights, their latest additions in Africa.

Over the past years they also pulled out of Freetown, Monrovia, Conakry, Lome, Abidjan, Casablanca, Douala and now it's Malabo's turn.

Maybe they should consider starting Asmara and perhaps direct flights to Durban. What do you guys think?


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19229 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1716 times:

Cities like Lilongwe, Harare, Lusaka and Gaborone only really, or particularly, warrant a flight to the UK, specifically London. In my view, two of those aforementioned which currently aren't served - namely Lilongwe and Gaborone (Malawi and Botwana were both British colonies, so there'd be the VFR traffic, plus the ever-increasing tourism traffic) - could, despite being served previously, sustain a non-stop or, more likely, one-stop connection with London, although they would be niche routes. Perhaps BA could either route LHR-LUN-GBE/LLW, so both GBE and LLW are served twice-weekly, thus requiring an additional weekly rotation to LUN, or, if preferred, fly LHR-LLW-GBE - all using the 763. Who knows? A better alternative, if the distance wasn't so long and if BA weren't interested, would be to send 757s down there, like CO from EWR to parts of Europe.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 8):
who stumble upon more oil cash than they can stuff into their Swiss bank accounts

BAxMAN may I kindly remind you that a lot of the money that the late Sany Abacha stole from the Nigerian people was eventually discovered in UK bank accounts and that money that did make its way into Switzerland was first laundered through UK institutions !

Since then Switzerland has introduced anti-money laundering regulations that are not only among the strictest in the world but are also very well enforced.

Please get your facts straight !


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

I completley agree with Pe@rson on this one. Lilongwe and Gaborone could be served by BA 763 and were for many years, profitably.

I cannot understand their reasoning with regard to these destinations. Pe@rson has accuratley pinpointed the demand for these destinations from London and they could be served twice weekly.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19229 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 14):
Lilongwe and Gaborone could be served by BA 763 and were for many years, profitably.

Actually, both cities were served by BA 744 machines (and possibly other types, too) either as add-ons or LHR-GBO/LLW-XXX. If I remember rightly (and I might not), they were served once-weekly.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

Yes and just like the 744 that frequented Lusaka, was always full. They then suspend Lilongwe and Gaborone and downgrade Lusaka to a 763, which is consistently full.

User currently offlineBAxMAN From St. Helena, joined May 2004, 671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1663 times:

Do you really think that if these services were making enough money, BA would abandon them without a second thought?

VFR merely fills the seats and does not generate much profit. BA have ruthlessly cut routes which have under-performed. Clearly, many of the African routes which were pulled were not contributing to the coffers as BA's profits do not seem to have been adversely affected since the route cuts - infact, profits have only seen an upward turn since the route reductions.

With opportunites now arising to increase frequencies to India and China, any chap with a few brain cells would see that there is more money to be made from Shanghai and Bangalore than there is from Lilongwe or Libreville. BA does not have a surplus of planes or LHR slots.

There seem to be implications that BA has an obligation to serve some of these routes. It's these excesses that cause an airline to become a basketcase like SR or AZ.

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 13):
BAxMAN may I kindly remind you that a lot of the money that the late Sany Abacha stole from the Nigerian people was eventually discovered in UK bank accounts and that money that did make its way into Switzerland was first laundered through UK institutions !

Since then Switzerland has introduced anti-money laundering regulations that are not only among the strictest in the world but are also very well enforced.

My mistake. I must rid myself of these little prejudices that infest me.



I need to get laid
User currently offlineQM001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

BAxMAN,

When the local station manager after years of rumours of a BA pullout in LLW repeatedly says that BA will never leave Malawi without a direct service, then, whilst I agree with your logic, they have seriously pissed some people off.

Whilst LLW/GBE/LUN/MPM might not make what India and shinese destinations make, they are good and loyal customers, who would stick with BA until their last breath! Nevertheless, it creates what I believe to be a very lucrative route possibility for some local airline to rise to the challenge.

Also(not only to BAxMAN) one must not forget that we are not only talking brits here, but also very large numbers of Germans, Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese and French all of whom work and live in these regions.

There would need to be a European connection for this to work effectively.

kind regards,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)



I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19229 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 17):
Do you really think that if these services were making enough money, BA would abandon them without a second thought?

The fares charged on all African routes (bar, to a certain extent, JNB, due to increased competition) are normally high to very high - including those cities in Morocco, despite being relatively short in duration (a 'normal' scheduled airfare will cost £200-300 from London). Now, if there was sufficient VFR and tourist demand, and those people pay the high/very high fares, then it might well do well, not even taking into consideration that for LLW and GBE it'd be the only non-stop (or one-stop) service to Europe. If you could get marketing, pricing, frequency, aircraft, etc., right, then I think such niche routes might do well - but not necessarily for BA. Routes such as KAN, LLW, Bangul, Freetown, GBE are niche routes - so a 'CO-style' approach might be quite effective. But then that raises the question of ability to reach the destinations non-stop (LLW and GBE). So...



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1590 times:

As far as West African destinations like Freetown, Banjul and Dakar. I think these would work well for Bmed out of London and would be within ramge for the 320/321.

LLW and GBE would be best served twice weekly with 763 BA mainline.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1583 times:

Needless to say SAA are crying out for increased frequencies to some neighbouring countries, to get that traffic feed onto their long haul services.

BA/Comair too - so that they can link into the BA mainline services from JNB. Needless to say as yet this happened, as the Yamoussoukro Agreement is far from being a reality.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineQM001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1534 times:

Can someone please outline the basics of the yamassoukro agreement. I am very keen to persue this issue further. It might be a very profitable niche for the likes of QM/BP/TM and I am sure would be a hit in Zambia.

Perhaps privatair would take an interest in a proposal like this.

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)



I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1519 times:

Quoting QM001 (Reply 22):
yamassoukro agreement

Googled for it, got: http://news.biafranigeriaworld.com/archive/2003/aug/28/0109.html



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
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