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Olympic Fleet Upgrade?  
User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 615 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

With all the negativity about this airline being discussed I thought I might ask a question like they did survive. If Olympic Airlines (and I SAID IF) does survive would a fleet commonality or advancement be in the works? I know they have a lot of older 737's and like 2 or 3 boeing 717. For long haul they have their A340's and for inter island the ATR's. I was wondering if any of you A.Netters thought about what their future fleet plans might be?
~Brandon


Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3587 times:

Latest rumor i've heard is a wealthy Greek American is interested in pursuing parts of the airline. He's looking to introduce three long-haul Boeing a/c to replace A340's.

Maybe someone from Greece can shed some lights.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25346 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

One needs to remember that even if Olympic survives and overcomes this latest challenge by the EU, the airline continues to bleed money every day.

With the companies current bloated staffing and Greek civil service mentality the airline will continue to loose monies and cannot even dare to consider the acquisition of new aircraft that would add to the huge debt burden it carries.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):

With the companies current bloated staffing and Greek civil service mentality the airline will continue to loose monies and cannot even dare to consider the acquisition of new aircraft that would add to the huge debt burden it carries.

True, Olympic really needs someone who knows how to run an airline before it can aquire new aircraft. Not looking at that aspect I was just curious what would be in their future if they have one.
~Brandon



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3450 times:

I raised this exact topib under same thread title a few months ago and was poo-pooed by everyone on Airliners for daring to aise the issue of OA fleet renewal.

I must say I thought replacing their ageing 737 classics and 340s with a long haul twin would be a top priority.


User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1922 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3348 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
Latest rumor i've heard is a wealthy Greek American is interested in pursuing parts of the airline.

Pfffew, misread your post. I only read the rich Greek part and the name Stelios popped up instantly... But he's no American.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 4):
must say I thought replacing their ageing 737 classics and 340s with a long haul twin would be a top priority.

Ya I wonder if they will buy all new Airbus and keep the A340's, or keep the ageing 737's and new 717's and build a newer longhaul fleet, and maybe some new 737's.
~Brandon



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineGeorgiabill From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 580 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3154 times:
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I think in the short term Olympic would be wise to try to obtain A332's to replace the A340's. The cost of training the crews would be less than say Olympic switching to 777's. They however need to drastically reduce their employee numbers and improve inflight service!

User currently offlineOA269 From Greece, joined Nov 1999, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Helloooooo the 340s belong to the gonvernment not to Olympic.

So if they actually follow the Swiss model (as rumours say and I supported in this forum) OA will re-open with less staff/acs but probably keep most of their pilots including those trained for the 340s. I can foresee any leased 734 will go so only company-owned a/cs will fly which means lower frequencies on each destination (for the beginning) or closure of some destinations (very unlikely).

Forget any a/cs upgrade at the beginning (the above fleet will do for 1 year till profit comes), if I'm not wrong they have found the 717s incompatible with the fleet and are supposed to be sold, anyone knows? And also the same with the (wonderful for me) A306 which have already gone.

Fleet is not the no1 problem now, but the choice of a good private manager (state ownership only 25%). Employee numbers are much less than 10 years ago (previous gonvernment though failed they still managed to reduce staff a lot), so a scheme like the above will make a mini-Olympic work but with much higer standards till some profit comes and why not an alliance so it can expand.


User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3088 times:

So OA269 that would leave Olympic with what, the ATR's, the 733 and 734 's that they own, and are you suggesting they give back the A340's and start smaller scale operations only or do you think they will continue their select few LONG routes?
~Brandon Makrides  Smile



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineOlympic707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 266 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2938 times:

If OA expands their long haul routes, OA may need to get some A340-500/600s.
 smile 
Yanni



Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25346 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 10):
If OA expands their long haul routes, OA may need to get some A340-500/600s

Greece being a small seasonal leisure market of only 11million people. Does it really make sense to support long haul routes?

Probably makes better economic sense to revert to solely European and regional flying, somewhat along the lines of Belgium which has near identical population.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2896 times:

I agree laxintl, If Olympic can survive I would think they would probably be best to serve the European markets and try and make a profit and get some newer aircraft. Do the current routes served by the A340's make large profits?
~Brandon Makrides



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25346 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Olympic has already pruned its international network in the recent years and dropped Australia, Japan, Thailand, Singapore. Basically all that remains today is North America and service to Johannesburg.

While I do not know the economics of South Africa, no one makes money on the North Atlantic during the winter months unless one operates on a very high yield business route, which Greece is not.

Maintaining a small fleet of A340s must be quite an expensive affair. A seperate cadre (I'm sure very senior) of pilots, separate maintenance tooling and parts etc..

It seems Olympic has maintained its long haul capacity more out of prestige reasons to serve the Greek diaspora around the world, then on any sound economic grounds. Then again, what if anything at Olympic is based on sound business?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBa321 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2840 times:

I agree A343's should go for A332's as at the momeent the A343's seem to be operating to LHR regularly, not what they were designed for at all, an A332 would be much better suited for the Longhaul/Medium Haul Trunk routes. However i think a more pressing problem is the 733/4 situation.


Fly safe, ba321
User currently offlineAdriaticflight From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 516 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

I've flow with Olympic a few times and i have to say the flights were very nice. However they are so far behind all the competition in terms of aircraft and inflight quality that i am not surpised that people avoid them. However lets not forget that Olympic has to maintain a very extensive and deeply unprofitable domestic route network. I was on a flight to a beautiful and tiny island called Kitheria a few years ago and there were 3 of us on the ATR42.
The fact that Greece has so many internal connections that are life-lines to the communities they serve is always going to weight it down.
My dream for the airline (if they suddenly got some money from somewhere) would be some nice 737-600 and 737-800 for European/Mid-East routes. Greece's location is perfect to develop a nice mid-east to Europe transit point...now they just need the aircraft and service to go with the nice new Athens airport.
Adriaticflight


User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2798 times:

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 15):
Greece's location is perfect to develop a nice mid-east to Europe transit point

I agree with you totally. If they could balance flght out both ways it could benefit them. I have to wonder if Olympic were to replace their 737's if Airbus would work with them better than Boeing like they did with US Airways?
~Brandon



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineKaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 739 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2787 times:

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 10):
If OA expands their long haul routes, OA may need to get some A340-500/600s.

I assume everyone knows that OA is based at ATH, a new international airport that was built as the largest and most modern southeast Europe hub. The A-345 could work on direct routes to MEL and SYD but only if the airline would seek to carry passengers from all over Europe, instead of just Greek people. Emirates is already doing this and makes some good money. The 772LR would be a better choice as an aircraft, but it would involve a lot higher training costs, ETOPS/ LROPS certification for the airline etc.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 11):
Greece being a small seasonal leisure market of only 11million people. Does it really make sense to support long haul routes?

Olympic's long haul routes are currently the most profitable routes. Also read my comment above, flying long haul out of ATH to the Far East would make a lot of sense.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 13):
While I do not know the economics of South Africa, no one makes money on the North Atlantic during the winter months unless one operates on a very high yield business route, which Greece is not.

The ATH-JFK route is the most profitable route on OA's network, with load factors over 90% all year round. The routes to YUL and JNB are second and third in terms of profit making.

Quoting Ba321 (Reply 14):
I agree A343's should go for A332's as at the momeent the A343's seem to be operating to LHR regularly, not what they were designed for at all, an A332 would be much better suited for the Longhaul/Medium Haul Trunk routes. However i think a more pressing problem is the 733/4 situation.

I would think a mix of A332s and A333s would suit OA better, assuming the network remains as it is now. The 333s would be better for the north Atlantic routes where the load factors are really high while the 332s would be suitable for high density European routes such as ATH-LHR or ATH-CDG.

So far Olympic operates 4 A343s, 1 A306, 3 717s, 15 733,4s and 13 ATR 42,72s.

In my opinion the sole remaining A306 and 3 717s, although amazing aircafts, should go. The A340s will stay since the government owns them. The ATRs should also stay because although they're absolutely horrible to fly in, they're very cheap to operate and maintain, and very well suited for the Greek island routes. As far as the 737s go, I have no clue, maybe OA should get a bunch of secondhand DC-9s from NW to replace them...



I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2751 times:

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
As far as the 737s go, I have no clue, maybe OA should get a bunch of secondhand DC-9s from NW to replace them...

Hehe very clever.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
In my opinion the sole remaining A306 and 3 717s, although amazing aircafts, should go.

Umm the A306 has been gone for a while now and I think OA dosen't like there 717's and someone talked about them getting rid of them.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
The A340s will stay since the government owns them.

I agree, so it would make sence them to try and replace the ageing Boeings with some Airbus short/medium haul aircraft. (I still see Airbus giving OA a better deal if they did choose to purchase Airbus)

~Brandon



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25346 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2738 times:

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
The ATH-JFK route is the most profitable route on OA's network, with load factors over 90% all year round.

Well your information could not be farther from the truth. Here are the 2004 OA JFK-ATH-JFK loads factors. Keep in mind, the loads if anything were skewed upwards in 2004 due to the Olympics.

Jan04 -65%
Feb04-55%
Mar04-73%
Apr04-62%
May04-67%
Jun04-74%
Jul04-76%
Aug04-77%
Sep04-81%
Oct04-72%
Nov04-59%
Dec04-65%
AVERAGE - 69%
(all data courtesy of USDOT T-100 stats)

I also know for a fact OA has a difficult time with yields across the Atlantic as it captures minimal business traffic and mostly caters to Greek VFR and tourist via network of consolidator travel agencies.

I would be willing to bet Olympic has not had a yearly profit across the Atlantic at least for the last half decade.
Olympics market position was much better during the 70s/80s competing against the Pan Am/TWA's of the world then were they are today.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3236 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Quoting OA269 (Reply 8):
they have found the 717s incompatible with the fleet and are supposed to be sold

I think they were leased so OA could easily return them to the lessor (I think the deal is expiring already).

Quoting Ba321 (Reply 14):
I agree A343's should go for A332's

Together with 333, possibly 2 of each would be good solution, but 343 is relatively young plane (five years old).

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 15):
some nice 737-600 and 737-800 for European/Mid-East routes.

Some time ago, OA advertised the arrival of 737NG on their website and it all sounded like a deal already made (they were talking about 737-700s).



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineKesflyer From Australia, joined Aug 2005, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Airbus all the way for me.

A320 family for Europe, Middle East, North Africa and Main Domestic Points.

A330s for North America and South Africa.
Re-introduction of Australian services via SIN or BKK and to be succesful they would definitely need to feed European passengers via ATH. There are alot of Serbs, Croats, Macedonians in OZ and they have no direct services ( or EK flights ) to OZ so could work for them as well.

ATR family for smaller islands and DH8 for the smaller runway airports.

Could work for them, however they really need to do something about the unions there and also a more friendly cabin crew. Admittedly have travelled with OA from Melbourne to Athens several years ago on the A340. Food was excellent, IFE was terrible and the cabin crew were also great. Maybe the cabin crew is more select on long haul ???

Good luck to them anyway as woudl be a shame to see this airline disappear with it's great paint scheme.


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1289 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

I think Olympic is the kind of ideal candidate for the Boeing 737-600/Airbus A318 types. They have few short routes as far as non-domestic flights are concerned, many routes are 3 hours or more. For London, add to that either a Boeing 737-900ER or an Airbus A321, this should do. As far as longhaul is concerned I think they should reduce further their ambitions and focus on a single entry point to the US: probably JFK. Maybe one Boeing 767-300ER, 777-200ER or an Airbus A330-200/300 isn't economical so in that case skip the special type for London and use a second longhaul type. Actually they may not have the option to avoid having 2, how long is ATH-JFK flight time?

As far as domestic flights are concerned, propellers should do the bulk since the distances are so short that there is no real advantage to the use of jets. Maybe use jets larger than a Boeing 737-600/Airbus A318 on those key routes where capacity demands it.

Conclusion: get a very reasonable number of NG 737s since there is only 1 economical engine choice compared to Airbus' narrow body offer and the advantage of not switching the entire fleet and training to Airbus (look at Sabena). Add to that a couple longhaul frames or keep only two of the A340s. Give a much higher standard in all classes on European flights since the distance justifies the pampering not offered between shorter city pairs or by no-frills airlines.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineD950 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 18):
Umm the A306 has been gone for a while now and I think OA dosen't like there 717's and someone talked about them getting rid of them.

The 717's are headed to Bangkok, and Olympic did like them, and their fuel numbers.



Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1922 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2510 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 19):
Well your information could not be farther from the truth. Here are the 2004 OA JFK-ATH-JFK loads factors. Keep in mind, the loads if anything were skewed upwards in 2004 due to the Olympics.

Making a profit doesn't always mean they do this with passengers only. Maybe OA is having a good deal on hauling cargo on their long-haul flights. So, maybe you are farther away from the truth.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
25 Post contains images Olympic707 : That data is way off. In October of 2002, I flew from JFK-ATH, the A340 had 5 seats that were empty, they were towards the rear of economy class (pos
26 Post contains images Olympic707 : Yes, it does. Outside of leisure/tourist, there are Greeks all over the world that visit Greece for many reasons, at all times of the year. I have fa
27 Post contains links Laxintl : Yanni, Help yourself and do as many searches as you want going back to all the way to 1990 and see what Olympics true loads are. http://www.transtats.
28 Olympic707 : I agree. OA has 4 A340s, it would be a better choice to get A340-600 for passenger capacity especially for North American routes. A340-500 for Asia /
29 Olympic707 : All I'm saying is, I always been on a full OA flight and people I know been on a full flight from JFK-ATH, ATH-JFK. Why else would people have to boo
30 Laxintl : This is exactly one of Olympics problems. Flying pockets of low yield Greek diasporas on a handful of prestige routes around the world at revenues in
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