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Swiss Pilots Sent On Secondment To China Airlines  
User currently offlineVarig767 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 243 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4236 times:

According to the Dutch news network (NOS) :

"Sixty Swiss pilots are sent on secondment to China Airlines. Both companies agreed this. Lufthansa stated that Swiss has to reorganize, and because of the growing air traffic in China due to economical developments, the Swiss pilots go to China Airlines."

with regards, Martijn

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4207 times:

Aren't Jet Airways using some Swiss pilots at the moment too ??


Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

Quoting Varig767 (Thread starter):
... and because of the growing air traffic in China due to economical developments, the Swiss pilots go to China Airlines."

Are you sure it's China Airlines? Because China Airlines is a Taiwanese Airline, it doesn't fly into Mainland China (PRC)

If that's the case, do you know when will this secondment be?


User currently offlineVarig767 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 243 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 2):
Are you sure it's China Airlines?

That's what the Dutch news is telling.... It doesn't state when it starts.


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4107 times:

Quoting Varig767 (Reply 3):
That's what the Dutch news is telling.... It doesn't state when it starts.

Wow... Do they need that many pilots? I know they're still receiving new A330s, but most of them will replace their A300s, so they can retrain those A300 pilots.

They also had a pretty big pilot hiring/recruiting within Taiwan and sending them to Australia. Hopefully the quality of CI's pilot will improve more.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 4):
Wow... Do they need that many pilots? I know they're still receiving new A330s, but most of them will replace their A300s, so they can retrain those A300 pilots.

Wow, another airline making that mistake. They really need to learn that the A330's mission is high-medium to long haul and not short distance, quick turning flights.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Wow, another airline making that mistake. They really need to learn that the A330's mission is high-medium to long haul and not short distance, quick turning flights.

They use the type throughout Asia, not just on short hops. The A333 gives them important growth potential in a growing market.

Btw - which airline are you refering to? Qantas?


Regards.
JM


User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6535 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Wow, another airline making that mistake. They really need to learn that the A330's mission is high-medium to long haul and not short distance, quick turning flights.

Who said you can't use an A330 for regional flights?...and what aircraft would you buy if you want to carry 300 people over a short distance?....for that matter, who said you can't drive your Ferrari down the road to buy a pint of milk?


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4039 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Wow, another airline making that mistake. They really need to learn that the A330's mission is high-medium to long haul and not short distance, quick turning flights.

Making the Swiss pilots perfect - after all they should be used to those ZRH-LHR A330 flights  Wink



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4497 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3938 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Wow, another airline making that mistake.

yeh, guess CX, TG, MH, KE and now CI are clueless about what plane they need for regional routes, then there's BR who even use the A332 on regional routes. they should all be losing money hand over fist because of this terrible mistake. those mainland Chinese airlines are really going to be losing money when they take those A332/3s also!

CI took on a number of ex Sabena pilots too, over a quarter of their pilots are non Taiwanese these days


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Wow, another airline making that mistake. They really need to learn that the A330's mission is high-medium to long haul and not short distance, quick turning flights.

Just for your reference, CI uses their A330 on routes to NRT, HK, BKK, HKG (They fly all their types into HKG)

If I'm not too out of date on their fleet, they currently have 6 A330s with more to come and completely replace their A300s. In the future, you will see CI's A330 fleet flying to all of their regional destinations such as SIN, DSP, JKT, MNL, Hanoi, etc. etc....
CI's future fleet, they will have 3 types of aircraft in their entire fleet: B744/744F (744Adv/F??), A333/A343, and B738. Pretty good fleet combination, in my book.

So... Please enlighten me, why is CI making a mistaking by flying A330s to those destinations, and if you had a say, what type of aircraft would you have chosen instead?


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

This is wierd.

A few years back Crossair hired (low cost) Eastern European pilots who got a pretty bad reputation in Switzerland after a Moldovan crew crashed a Saab shortly after takeoff from ZRH and the cause of the accident was determined to have been a pilot error (if memory serves me right the fact that the pilot and copilot were not able to communicate in a common language played a major role) .

Now Swiss is sending its pilots to an airline whose safety record is not extactly stellar.

I wonder what's next: A pilot exchange program with a Congolese bush carrier specialising in AN 24 ?


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

CI has been improving their safty in the past few years. They have overhualed their pilot program as well as their maintenance, and actually received ISO safty certification in 2004 (IIRC)

Last I heard, Swiss had pretty good pilots too...


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3738 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 12):
Swiss had pretty good pilots too...

I agree with your statement regarding the former SR pilots.

The former Crossair pilots are another story. The last 2 LX/SR planes that crashed were both flown by Crossair crews.


User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3689 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 13):
I agree with your statement regarding the former SR pilots.

The former Crossair pilots are another story. The last 2 LX/SR planes that crashed were both flown by Crossair crews.

What you state here can cause one of this big duscussions again we already had.

Sure, there are better and worse pilots in the world, as there are as well companies who are more selective than others. What is intersting to see, is that most of the times there is a big chain in front of an accident, resulting from the so called "safety culture" in the respective company. So very often an accident could be prevented if the company has strict procedures which are not only practiced but lived. What is real poison against a good safety culture, is when companies go to hire lots of pilots all over the world from many different operators. The individual will be in another "safety culture" and start to fight alone instead of making part of the team. This is the worst that can happen and I am sure, what also happend to those two poor guys from Eastern Europe, crashing the LX SAAB 340 at Nassenwil, you mentioned.

So I just hope the very best, that those Swiss pilots going to China get a real good intro into the company, so that they feel "at home" in this cockpits there. Only this way they can provide a real good job and this is essential.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 6):
They use the type throughout Asia, not just on short hops. The A333 gives them important growth potential in a growing market.

Btw - which airline are you refering to? Qantas?

Both QF and MH

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 7):
Who said you can't use an A330 for regional flights?...and what aircraft would you buy if you want to carry 300 people over a short distance?....for that matter, who said you can't drive your Ferrari down the road to buy a pint of milk?

Just like your Ferrari going to get too many pints of milk without a long, brisk trip down the Autostrada, the A330 is not designed to constantly operate quick turn, short hauls. It develops severe electrical problems, as well as those with its brakes and engines. This has created severe problems for both QF and MH



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3659 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 14):
So very often an accident could be prevented if the company has strict procedures which are not only practiced but lived. What is real poison against a good safety culture, is when companies go to hire lots of pilots all over the world from many different operators

Legacy, I fully agree with you that this is primarily a soft factor issue (corporate culture, crew resource mgt, etc.) and not so much a question of the "hard skills" of the pilots.

I believe that the decision of the of Swiss authorities to indict some members of the old LX senior management on manslaughter charges in connection with the last RJ crash did help the new LX to establish a comprehensive safety culture.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Swiss TV DRS brought the same news. It is China Airlines in Taiwan. Interestingly this offer goes to 60 former Crossair pilots who fly regional planes and will be dismissed. These are not pilots who already fly the 330.

[Edited 2005-09-27 23:56:11]

User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 17):
Swiss TV DRS brought the same news. It is China Airlines in Taiwan. Interestingly this offer goes to 60 former Crossair pilots who fly regional planes and will be dismissed. These are not pilots who already fly the 330.

So let me get this straight...

CI is hiring ex Crossair pilots who flew REGIONAL aircrafts? And NONE of them had A330 experience? And Crossair pilots are the ones who's qualifications are in question?

If you have any newslinks (English preferred), please post it?

Thanks

[Edited 2005-09-28 00:13:08]

User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 18):
CI is hiring ex Crossair pilots who flew REGIONAL aircrafts? And none of them had A330 experience? And Crossair pilots are the ones who's qualifications are in question?

Yes according to the "Tagesschau" and "10vor10" of TV DRS it is exactly like this. For Swiss it seams logical because they don't have too many 320/330/340 pilots but as they give up all ERJ 145 and Saab 2000 they have too many regional pilots.


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3598 times:

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 19):
Yes according to the "Tagesschau" and "10vor10" of TV DRS it is exactly like this. For Swiss it seams logical because they don't have too many 320/330/340 pilots but as they give up all ERJ 145 and Saab 2000 they have too many regional pilots.

Thank you, ZRH.

What in the world would CI hire those regional pilots? Train them to fly heavies??


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4497 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3567 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Just like your Ferrari going to get too many pints of milk without a long, brisk trip down the Autostrada, the A330 is not designed to constantly operate quick turn, short hauls. It develops severe electrical problems, as well as those with its brakes and engines. This has created severe problems for both QF and MH

I can almost understand QFs problems especially when they have a unique domestic version of the A330 but why does MH have problems while CX, TG, KE and others don't. Except for possibly flying something likea real short segment like KUL-SIN, the others are all operating on similar flights in the region. Sure, I can see flying an A330 for an hour or less several times a day is probably not ideal but in the far east they are flying these on flights of several hours. The shortest CI flight wold be TPE-HKG which is 90 minutes and many of the others are 3hrs +

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 20):
What in the world would CI hire those regional pilots? Train them to fly heavies??

perhaps as 2nd officers on 738s and even widebodies, after all they put pilots fresh out of ab initio pilot training into RH seat in widebodies, you can argue that an experienced regional pilot is even a better way to go than the former!


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3407 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 20):
What in the world would CI hire those regional pilots? Train them to fly heavies??

Yes it was mentioned that they would be trained. I don't think that this should be too difficult.


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 20):
What in the world would CI hire those regional pilots? Train them to fly heavies??

Since they were about to lose their jobs with LX sooner or later anyhow they might have agreed to work for a cut-rate salary provided that CI pays for their A330 type rating which in turn would increase the their long term value in the job market.

This could actually turn out to be win-win situation provided the Taiwanese flying public doesn't find out about the track record of the former Crossair pilots....


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3342 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 23):
This could actually turn out to be win-win situation provided the Taiwanese flying public doesn't find out about the track record of the former Crossair pilots....

CI better provide some very strict training for those LX pilots, just like CI train their cadets down in Australia!


25 Stoney : I read in a paper that these pilots are all regional pilots, which are going to be retrained and will be offered a F/O position in the long range flee
26 FlyingHippo : 60 pilots?? wow... Do you guys think there will be a significant order from CI in the not-so-distant future?
27 Trex8 : or a significant number of retirements soon just as a FYI, the present CI chief pilot was a former airforce pilot who went on to be a Transasia A320 p
28 FlyingHippo : Sorry.. but what is a check pilot and what does him do?
29 Trex8 : he makes sure you can fly the plane properly, so airlines will send their pilots to Airbus to be trained and someone needs to certify they can fly the
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