Gnomon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1831 times:
Somebody will get rebranded, maybe both. The Canadian (Airlines) web site indicates that the airlines will be united into one brand upon the conclusion of CDN's debt restructuring, probably "in May or June."
So here is the question: That leaves one to wonder if Canadian will be absorbed into Air Canada and the new airline will be called Air Canada??
Also, will the new mega-airline be expected to retain the Air Canada color scheme if the above is the case, or will a new livery be adopted to signify a "new" carrier, even if the Air Canada name remains?
Copper1 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1655 times:
Just a guess but the Air Canada name and logo will remain the same. It is well known worldwide.
It would be a case of what goes around comes around for Canadian. Remember when they bought out Wardair and all the promises of separate identities blah blah blah.
As much as we Canadians maybe don't like our national carrier ( smug doesn't begin to describe corporate Air Canada) they have a pretty good reputation on the international scene and I can't see them changing the name or the logo.
Carioca Canuck From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1632 times:
I was, and still am, loyal to CP and the current version called Canadian Airlines International. This came from a time when Air Canada was government owned and those of us "out west" here called it "Air Pierre".....after the notorious past PM of Canada.
Is it any wonder that "Westjet" is such a roaring success ???
Whatever happens "image wise" isn't relevant to me as a frequent flyer (Cdn "Gold" member), but I sincerely hope that the people at Canadian who are absorbed into the new company, receive equal footing and are not considered "second tier" by the Air Canada incumbents.
Dannyboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1621 times:
Ok, I know we're not supposed to gossip but, I've been hearing some interesting rumours about the uniforms. The new Canadian uniform, which nobody has been issued was still be wear tested up to a month or so ago, I saw FA's and Pilots wearing it. I've heard say that AC management likes them and there is a possibilty that we could be wearing them, ALL of us. This I have heard from both AC & CP employees. The CP FA and Customer Service uniform is nicer than AC's but their pilots uniforms are nicer. I doubt the paint jobs will change or the name for that matter.
Air Canada From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1609 times:
I realise that my company, Air Canada, is not the most popular with everyone, especially the people who are travelling with us. However, I would really like to know, what would have happened if AC had not taken the step to buy and merge Canadian.
Well, part of the answer to that question is, Canadian would have went under, leaving many thousands of people out of work, many millions of travelers stranded, among other things.
Air Canada still would have come out being the only major airline in Canada (I mean scheduled airline, not chartered like Canada 3, Air Transat, etc).
I think it is good that AC is trying to help save CP and their employees. Yes, things are messy to say the least, as an AC employee, I have some complaints as well, but, once things start to take shape, I think we can build an airline that people can be proud of.
I am just tired of everyone bashing AC for trying to do a good thing. We could have sat back and watched as CP died, but we stepped in to help, but that's not good enough for people. What more do they want?
No one had any problems with CP when they swallowed Wardair, EPA, Nordair, etc, so why is AC the bad guy in all of this? Would it have been better if AC went under? What then?
Air Canada is trying to do a good thing out of a bad situation, but it seems to me like no one will give it a chance. Give me a break.
p.s. Dannyboy, I heard at work today that there will be new uniforms sometime down the road. I don't know when or what they will look like.
Copper1 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1608 times:
Phil. Lots of people had a problem when CP swallowed up the metioned airlines. Any time choice is removed (read competition) it is bad for the consumer. The situation may have ben reversed if Air Canada hadn't been bailed out for years by the Federal Govt. Sure you have been private for a while now but MY money sure saved the Air Canada bacon for a number of years.
No-one likes change and it may be true that a country the size of Canada can no longer support two national carriers but it scares the he.. out of me when our current Federal Government says they are looking out for my travelling interests.
Sorry if this seems personal. It is not meant to be. There are lots of good people at Air Canada. I know what it is like to work for an organization that has good front line people but management that is not trusted.
Aad665 From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 232 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1593 times:
It's a interesting topic. I can see advantage to run separate airlines. Of course, when Milton told us that Canadian will remain a separate firm, nobody believe him. We should understand that Milton isn't (probably) a layer, it is the usual way to do a merger. Remember AA with Reno, Molson with O'keefe (it is anothers topic but a merger)... it's usual.
Also JAT, it is not important where from COE, what is important if it is good or not. Also, do you know, Carty, COE of AA is Canadian.
Carioca Canuck From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1594 times:
Nobody here is knocking Air Canada..............we may have hated the past regime due to government ownership and the use and waste of taxpayer's dollars.
Since privatization Air Canada has been reasonably sound financially. Hopefully, Milton will give us a new airline that combines the best of both..............and the government will regulate it enough to let it stay profitable..............without gouging the customers, or creating the perception of said gouging.
The worst job here will be the political one I think.
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1579 times:
Copper1, just a point to grab on for discussion, but you said:
"The situation may have ben reversed if Air Canada hadn't been bailed out for years by the Federal Govt. Sure you have been private for a while now but MY money sure saved the Air Canada bacon for a number of years."
Now I'm not sure that I agree with that. Sure, as a westerner I feel a fair bit of resentment to a lot of things Ottawa has done. And yes, AC did recieve a certain amount of favouritism over the years. But so did CPAir. Shoot, look back and notice that even though AC did originally want the routes to Hong Kong, Australia, Tokyo, and some others, politics went in favour of CPAir. Just consider that at some times the fact is that AC survived in spite of CN Rail (make that a Crown Corporation) ownership, not because of it. I think that looking back, CPAir had its own special degree of treatment, and it was a private enterprise which in some ways made that less justifiable. Also, I think that perhaps CPAir acted the same way the railway did: there was theoretical competition, but really they acted as a duopoly, so I'm not so much for the old days of CPAir. And in the time since AC has been private, I don't think that there's any doubt that Canadian Airlines has been blatantly favoured by the government.
With regards to the $$$ question. Fact is that AC had a net influx of money into government coffers, not a loss. Also, don't forget that the company was artifically handicapped by being funded by interest bearing debt for most of its years, rather than capital investment it would have had if it was private.
My personal sentiment also goes somewhat against PWA, I dislike its years as a public enterprise. Of all the airlines we formerly had, I think Wardair was probably the one that recieved the least amount of favoured treatment.
Now if you want to know why Canadian Airlines went broke every 3 years, that's another question. Instead of looking at AC, I think it goes back to CP management. Look at how the PWA buyout of CPAir was finananced. They sold the fleet and leased it back. But they also took on debt from CPAir. This means that they effectively financed their fleet twice, once through debt and also paid leasing costs on top of that. Of course there's lots of other reasons. Fleet management wasn't too good when you look at how in the last 20 years there have been many backtrackings on fleet decisions. Of course fate played a role, too, with the Gulf War and Asian Crisis. And there's lots of other reasons. But I believe that had there been a few different management decisions made, then the great people over at Canadian Airlines would still be an independant company.
CPAir 4 life From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1573 times:
We can sit here and argue 'till the cows come home, but it won't change simple facts.
Both Air Canada and Canadian have been favoured by the government over the years. Air Canada in the past, and in the nineties, Canadian. I don't feel like going into details, but Ottawa seems only capable of favouring 1 at a time.
AC183 talked about routes to Austalia and Asia....well what about Air Canadas huge presence in Europe compared to CP. They had to give CP something.
Im not saying that they didn't get anything by any stretch of the imagination.
I was reading "wingwalkers" and Air Canada used to have many flights a day between YVR and YYZ while CP was allowed only 1 a day.
In my opinion, everything is falling into place.
I feel that these two companies were meant to merge
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1562 times:
CPAir4Life, I'm not sure I agree that the companies were destined to merge, well actually I view it as more like the government shouldn't have cut up Canadian Airways way back in 1937 to form TCA and CPA. Maybe it's saying the same thing, but what a mess government policy has been over the years.
Also, I agree, throughout the past it was either one or the other that was favoured, but not both at the same time. Actually, it seemed to change every 5 or 10 years which one started getting more of the routes. Remember the "division of the world" policy with CP on the pacific and AC on the atlantic? Then CP got Amsterdam, Italy, Spain- so much for the CP across the pacific. Then governments changed, and it was AC's turn to be favoured, and they got a fair number of new US routes in the 70's. Then the next government went and cracked open domestic markets for CP to do whatever it liked. It was a cycle...
By the way, another interesting tidbit. I was reading "A study in air regulation" at the university library, and it was very interesting to see that during WWII it was very much feared that CPAir would become a monopoly, as at the time it was much bigger than TCA. Hence why they were overly heavy-handed in regulating CPA in the 50's. It's like watching a pendulum to see the airlines go in and out of favour...
Copper1 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1552 times:
To CPAir 4 life and AC183
Just goes to show you that politics should stay out the airline boardroom.
Another example of regionalism ? Was it Conservative govts. that favoured CP and Liberal govts. that favoured AC? I'm not trying to upset anyone, I just think it would be neat to know. Lets not forget the always ugly " Quebec Factor ". It seems to play out in every big political decision that is made in this country.
You guys out west seem to get screwed every time.
You know what the name of the new Quebec National Airline is don't you?
E Mail if you want the answer. Don't think it would be good to post.
Flygirl From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1553 times:
Now that the latest posts have efficiently taken care of all the finger pointing issues (and many good points were made), I'll bring this thread back to the original query.
Nothing concrete has been published or confirmed in quite some time. Rumours abound though. Shortly after the CP shares were picked up by AC, some comments were made by RM of eventually consolidating the two brands into one. A new one entirely or one slightly altered to identify both carriers? It was never said. It was further stated by RM that he did not want either airline to lose their brand recognition as established in the international markets historically serviced by each carrier separately. It was initially always referred to as the "New Air Canada" interpreted by many people that a hybrid of the two names was in the works.
Now, my guess and only my opinion:
Too much money has already been expended for painting aircraft. The budget must be blown by now into the next decade. The Maple Leaf tail is here to stay. To honour the duo brand recognition, if RM is still leaning that way, might mean just adding the small (transitional livery) goose to the rest of the fleet for the sake of recognition. All other traces of CP will disappear. New uniform are coming. I will post an employee bulletin for those who did not/could not see it.
June 1, 2000, Number 33
TWO PHASE UNIFORM PROGRAM TO BEGIN IN JUNE
Employees have been asking lately whether they will be getting new uniforms. Air Canada is currently in the fifth year of a seven-year
uniform program, and it is now time to start designing a new one.
The decision has now been made to begin the process of creating a new uniform for all Air Canada and Canadian front line employees.
However, as this takes 18 months to two years to complete, all Canadian Airlines front line employees will wear the current Air
Canada uniform on an interim basis, while the new uniform is being developed.
As far as customer contact employees are concerned, Canadian Airlines employees will continue to wear their current uniforms
until such time as we have inter-mingling agreements with the respective unions (i.e. Air Canada employees can handle Canadian Airlines’ customers and flights, or vice-versa).
That being said, a group of 62 (the number may increase) Canadian Airlines Customer Sales and Service Agents employees who will be working the Air Canada sub-schedule at Toronto’s Pearson
International Airport, will begin wearing the Air Canada uniform starting on June 3rd. They will only be dealing with Air Canada customers.
CUSTOMER SALES AND SERVICE, CARGO, GSE AND RAMP AGENTS
Other CAW and IAM employees will be sized and fitted, and manufacturing will proceed but the cutover date has not been determined.
However, the plan is to have an entire station transitioned to the AC uniform at the same time, beginning with Toronto and then spreading across the system.
Concierge will be outfitted in the current VIP uniform (black version of the Air Canada uniform) with a new tie once the positions have been re-bid in the fall.
Pilots and Flight Attendants will be put into the Air Canada uniform at the same time but the date has yet to be determined.
Uniforms will be provided to Line Mechanics at airports that have higher customer visibility. Heavy Mechanics who work at the hangars
will follow. The delivery dates and details have not been worked out at this time.
Later this summer, Canadian Airlines front line management at airports will transition to Air Canada uniforms to align with the Air Canada policy.
The second phase of the project will be the design of a new uniform. The teams will be able to use the research conducted by Canadian
during their uniform redevelopment exercise of the last two years. Committees will be formed from all the Air Canada and Canadian Airlines labour groups to provide input into the new uniform.
Comfort, functionality and an elegant and professional looking wardrobe are key considerations in designing new uniforms."
Now taking this a step further, if they are going to a new uniform then maybe a livery and/or name change will follow suit so that the new combined airline can start fresh and hopefully leave all past rivalry and bickering behind. It would have positive phycological results for the employees and better yet, for the travelling public that held fierce loyalty to one or the other.
Once the work forces become merged in mentality, they will quickly become merged in reality. I feel great about the whole thing and can't wait for events to bring us together. Then further unifying changes might be brought back to the drawing board.
Slawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1551 times:
The governmetn would not have let Canadian go under back in febuary they had about 600 million dollars ready to save CP once again, did you notice that after AC committed to buying Canadian, the government suddenly had 600 million for VIA rail..that was the Canadian Airlines money...
That would have just let them stay aloft for a few more months/years...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
Aca320 From Canada, joined Aug 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1530 times:
Just to add if this is any indication of whats happening saw a recent notice up on the bulletin board stating that Cdn employees will be issused with new A/C uniforms starting immediately and that a new brand design was being worked on for release in approx 18mths to 2yrs.
Samurai 777 From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 2457 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1523 times:
How soon will it be before CP's planes will be reconfigured with AC interiors? I'm talking about the 763s and A320s in CP's fleet. The 737-200s will likely not stick around for too long, only a few years at the most, IMHO, so I don't know whether AC will refit them with AC interiors.
Dannyboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1501 times:
I think the name Air Canada makes sense seeing as how it is now the "FLAG" carrier. With respect to rebranding, of course whatever happens will reflect the new Air Canada. I do find it funny though, how a question regarding brands has gotten into company bashing and who is saving who's ass. I am a CP employee and I'm glad to see that alot of people are not out of work & that we can all build a totally "kickass" worldclass airline. What's done is done and now we just have to figure out a few details and get on with it!
Flygirl From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1502 times:
I'm behind you 100% Dannyboy. I come from the same kettle. The flames beneath us have been a little hot in the last few months haven't they? Help my sleep at nights and assure me that cannabalism is illegal in our civilized country.
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1490 times:
OK, back to the original question. About liveries and names. I really doubt either name or livery will be changed. Cost is a factor, but brand name recognition is also. And on top of that, AC will remain the name simply because it's bilingual. Even something like Air Canadian wouldn't work due to english/french issues, so it will simply be Air Canada.
Now to prove the point of brand name recognition I think I'll refer to past example. Anyways, I had a neighbor who used to work for Pacific Western, and of course became a Canadian Airlines employee. Back several years ago he commented on the change livery. At the time his comment was that the loss of the well recognized Orange paint at CPAir in 1987 had damaged the companies recognition in global markets. Now I realize CPA had just introduced a different livery in 1986, but it was never fully worn and never really had time to build market loyalty to it. The loss of the Canadian Pacific name also hurt. Nowadays we're in a similar situation. Would it do more harm than good to change the name or image? For simple reasons of creating a brand the current livery and name worn on Air Canada will continue.
I do understand, however, that employees feel loyalty towards their company, and will not like to see the CP image disappear. I know Wardair people certainly felt that way. Interestingly, however, the Goose was originally introduced in 1929 on Western Canada Airways, and indeed this company eventually became Canadian Airlines. It also, however, had a part split off in order to create TCA. I would suggest, then, that CP employees communicate to AC management something to the effect of "in honour of the shared histories of our airlines, that the Canadian Airlines goose logo be placed on the nose of all aircraft of the merged airline."
Flygirl, here's another idea I posted quite some time ago, and I don't know if you ever saw it, but I think it's worth repeating. As you realize, Air Canada has an A319 painted in TCA colours to commemorate it's history (on the event of it's 60th anniversary). I would suggest that it might be a good idea to expand this into a "heritage series" of aircraft, commemorating various component airlines. For example, painting another aircraft into the old AC red stripe image (maybe an A340-would look like a DC-8!) would commemorate AC along with the TCA aircraft. Painting one aircraft into the CPAir orange, and one into Pacific Western or Wardair colours (with AC titles alongside) would commemorate the Canadian Airlines history. Of course that would not include all of the dozens of other airlines like Transair, EPA, Time Air, Quebecair, Nordair, and so on, but an insert into EnRoute magazine with some photos would make a nice commemorative edition. This would create pride and loyalty amonst all employees, and would also be a valuable PR tool amongst the public who fondly remember those images of the past. I think it would ease the fears people have that the merger will erase the past proud histories of the constituent airlines by celebrating the histories of the airlines.
25 Flygirl: AC183 You're right, I didn't see any past post with your suggestion of the varied liveries. I like the idea and agree with the kind of impact it would
26 Dannyboy: Hey everyone, Cannibalism IS illegal so sleep well.I love the idea of painting some a/c in the old liveries. I'm sure it could ease alot of tension at
27 Slawko: I think almost all of us agree that painting a few of the Air Canada/ Canadian airplanes into historic paint schemes is a good idea..I suggest that we