DC-9CAPT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1914 times:
Here's some stories that come up from memory--all from my experience on military charters:
(1). Years ago flying from Yuma to Cherry Point via Beaufort. We wait about 10 hours in a staging area for the aircraft to show up. Supposed to depart at 0900 local for home. Our aircraft finally gets into Yuma at 1900. It was pulled off some mecca charter to do ours--at least that was the rumor. Okay so we board and get underway at/around 2000 for a non-eventful flight to Beaufort--a first!
Around 0345we get underway ASAP as there is an early morning storm they're trying to beat up at Cherry Point. The storm made it there first, because the driving rain and wind conspired to cause two go-arounds. After the second one, the captain got on the intercom and said he'd try one more time and then we'd have to divert up to Raleigh.
Well the rain was coming down hard as ever and we came in high and hot. We hit on the 4 board right up next to the grass so hard that the FA sitting with us in the upper deck screamed a loud JESUS! The reversers and brakes went into action and, thank God for Cherry Point's jogging overruns, we jogged left onto the overruning runway--using about 3,000 feet of it. I guess about 50% of the overheads in the lower deck jarred loose. My biggest highlight was the FA screaming JESUS with a look of fear on her face.
2. This time going outbound from Cherry Point to Yuma via Beaufort. Captain announces that we can't fuel at Cherry Point nor at Beaufort. Evidently coordination never took place for whatever reason. It's a hot August day and we depart Beaufort for Yuma for a short stop in DFW. At DFW we sit in 94 degree heat for 2 hours at the General Aviation ramp (with as many doors as we could get open). We got the fuel, but just sat! I felt like we were rambling gypsies. It was sunday, and we found out later through the rumor mill that a company check written by the flight crew--to pay for the fuel--was not going to be accepted, and it took a special series of phone calls between Tower and the GA fueler to get it squared away.
3. Miramar to Guam via HNL. At HNL we refuel. On take-off roll on the reef runway they start dumping fuel to lighten load? Not too familiar with 747ops and never seen that before. Barely creep into air and crawl up to cruising altitude. Landing at Agana, they come in too high and go around on a clear, windless day.
4. Cherry Point to Ontario. 0800 Engine number 4 won't start. Need a replacment part. Will take a few hours to have part counter to countered down to nearby New Bern. No biggie, sit on plane, we're used to it. 1300 Tower Ops guy who flies with crew (and spoke broken english) gets van ride up to New Bern to get the part. Two hours later, no part. At 1700 we find out that part has been inadvertantly sent up to RDU where it is waiting. We have eaten all our catered food by now. At 1900 Tower graciously sends out an order for tubs of chicken from the KFC across from the air station (I thought I was taking part in a surrealistic bad dream by now). 2330 The ops guy gets back with the part. We are underway by 0100. Did I mention that we are now 17 hours late?
5. Yokota to Kadena. Overheating engine number 2. In flight shut down. This one not too bad. We turn around, go back to Yokota. After a full bird USMC Col raised holy hell (he was just going from Yokota to Kadena, and didn't start out in LAX like the rest of us!) we all got meal voutures for the base Burger King and got to relax for three hours outside the aircraft.
6. Another interesting story. Sitting in coach, right after chime goes off, FAs go into forward galley to prepare for in-flight service. A ruckus amongst them breaks out and there is much yelling and screaming. One of them stumbles out from curtain as if she has been pushed, and with a loud "BITCH!" she slapped the girl who pushed her, right in the face. Then went running off to the back of the aircraft in tears never to be seen again. My first (and only) airborne cat fight.
7. Upper deck first class section (old TWA amenities). Someone smeared a huge booger on the wall and circled it with a pen and an arrow pointing to it with words in Spanish--I think.
8. Forward lower lav. Littered with graffitti done in black permanent marker. Just like the stuff you find on overpasses.
Just my stories...there are FAR WORSE ONES OUT THERE!!!
ContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined exactly 12 years ago today! , 3762 posts, RR: 17 Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1862 times:
JFK to Paris (ORY) 1992
Disgusting. Dirty airplane. Torn seat cushions. Broken overheads,
no meal service. Worst of all, leaking toilet, spilled that green
disinfectant all over the floor and leaked out onto the aisle at
the rear of the cabin.
A definite safety hazard. This airline should have been grounded
10 years ago. Those planes should be turned into soda cans fast!
Na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 8615 posts, RR: 11 Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1837 times:
That can really happen in the US today? And go on for years and decades? A scandal. Who allows them to fly? Some inspectors living in Long Island mansions bought through "family donations"?
Sounds like the horror stories from cash-stripped Russian airlines 5 years ago.
DC-9CAPT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1853 times:
From Ontario to Cherry Point there were two groups of us going back--one on a Tower 747 that was to leave at 2100 and one on a Sun Country DC-10 scheduled to depart at 0200. I got lucky and was assigned as Troop Commander for the DC-10!!!
Well when we roll into Ontario at 0100, sure as hell there sits the 747 alongside our DC-10. We only had around 150 or so on our DC-10 load. Two things had happened prior to our arrival. (1) Upon landing, the Tower Air 747 blew four tires. Luckily there is a UPS facility there and they were able to fanagle some replacements. (2). For some unrelated reason, the forward bin on the 747 was jammed shut, and many of the personnel could not get their bags aboard.
Well, I got with the embark chief who weighed the bags as well as the Sun Country FE and Mech. We squeezed every damn left over sea bag we could aboard the DC-10 (and still had to leave some behind). With our fuel, pax and all that extra baggage we were pretty close to max allowable. We used up a lot of runway on take-off.
What struck me though, was the courtesy, professionalism, and can-do attitude of Sun Country. Their plane was clean (all-be-it cramped) and we were very well treated.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4315 posts, RR: 19 Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1805 times:
What have your experiences been with military charters on the other primary AMC carriers: ATA and World? I'm curious about more recent time frames. World now has one of the more respected aviation guys at its helm (Hollis Harris), and ATA has had to and will continue to upgrade its aircraft, service quality, and operational reliability to compete as a scheduled carrer focusing in part on business travellers (as has Sun Country). [Tower, obviously, never made a serious play for those folks; despite its discounted "first class", business travellers usually like to arrive within minutes, not days, of schedule. I remember a travel agent in LA trying to push me on Tower First over Delta business class a few years ago; it was much better, she said. I laughed. And laughed. And laughed. Then, I boarded a venerable-yet-lovely Delta L1011 for the on-time trip home.] Thanks in advance.
747Oiler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1797 times:
"3. Miramar to Guam via HNL. At HNL we refuel. On take-off roll on the
reef runway they start dumping fuel to lighten load? Not too familiar
with 747ops and never seen that before. Barely creep into air and crawl
up to cruising altitude. Landing at Agana, they come in too high and go
around on a clear, windless day."
Oh, please! Dumping fuel on the takeoff roll....no way! What you might have seen is a small amount of fuel being siphoned from the vent surge tank. The vent is on the bottom side of the wing tip, just forward of the jettison nozzle. Fuel in the vent surge tank is often caused by a failure of one of the fuel tank fill valves to close when its tank is full. The vent surge tank also serves as a backup shutoff system. When the vent surge tank becomes approx. 2/3 full, it commands all fueling valves to close. The fuel in the vent surge tank is normally drained into the inboard main tank of the respective wing. On a fuel stop with a short ground time, it's likely that the small amount of fuel accumulated in the vent surge tank didn't have enough time to drain into the main tank before departure.
DC-9CAPT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1784 times:
The only bad experiences I have had are on Tower for military charters. Here are the others I flew on:
I have flown on a Carnival A-300 which was good. Had an okay 1st class section.
Flown several times on ATA L1011s which were cramped, but the flight crews went out of the way for us.
Sun Country, as I mentioned, was decent.
FEDEX used to have the westpac rotator--it was bearable, but not anywhere near as bad as Tower.
Northwest also had the westpac rotator. I flew them back to LAX non-stop from Okinawa. Great Service. Sat in business class.
Reno Air. Yes, they did military charters too. Flew them from Cherry Point to Ontario. Not too bad.
International Charter Xpress. Rickety old DC-8. 2/3 cargo and the rear 1/3 had a compartment with 2 x 2 seating. They flew a rotational charter from Iwakuni to Kadena to Kunsan to Osan. Not too bad either--it beat the hell out of the cargo straps on a C-141 or a 130
AirT85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1764 times:
LoL! I have had some bad experiences with Tower as well, mainly NYC-FLA runs, very bad. i wont go into detail, lol, ivet yped it out like three times on here, sorry...but lets just say, they are way worse then Continental in the early 90's after all its mergers...very very bad. i hope the guy running the show gets on one of his "beautiful 747 classics" and crashes in teh thing. that would be nice. oh wait, lol, iguess you shouldnt wish that on anyone, oh well.,
-Tony
AA61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13954 posts, RR: 62 Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1761 times:
dc-9capt, You said you went to dfw to stop for fuel, when was this?
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4001 posts, RR: 48 Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1725 times:
Don't be too harsh on them, in all these years not a single occupant or passenger has ever got killed. Their service is minimal, but so are the prices they offer, I think they've done a good deal to make a sufficient product for a minimal price. I hoped to fly them this summer (JFK-MIA), I have never flown on classic 747-100s (ex Pan Am, TWA...) but they went bankrupt or so.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
Propatriamori From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 132 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1859 times:
Flew World to Osan AB on an MD-11 in 1996. Pretty Good service, friendly FA's, Good entertainment, really full though. On the way back we sat in a muggy non-AC'd plane for 2 hours waiting to load baggage. 380 guys waiting to go home after a year and no AC in July. Tempers were certainly hotter than the weather.
My unit flew to Saudi Arabia with ATA last Year on L-1011's. My trip was very good. The FA's on that flight told us they liked the military charters because the passenger's were friendly and very seldom were unruly. But the Advanced Party of the unit that came to relieve us (on ATA) landed at the (Civil) Al Kharj Airport instead of (military) PSAB. The guys on that flight told me they landed, looked around and saw a few shacks, then realized they were at the wrong Airport! (Maybe there's a good explanation
We took a Miami Air 727 all the way back to El Paso from PSAB. It took 6 3-hour legs, about 27 hours with stops the whole way. EVERY SEAT WAS FULL, and there was 4 to 5 inches in between seats. I am a big guy, I like to fly, but after that I never wanted to fly again (at least for a while). And the food was the exact same thing on every leg, except the Coke Cans were in different languages.
Of all the military charters I took, all the foul-ups can for the most part be blamed on the military. Except for Miami Air (curse those blasted seats!).
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4315 posts, RR: 19 Reply 13, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1705 times:
I just looked at the Scott AFB evaluations, and was surprised to see Miami Air listed for international ops as well as domestic. I thought it was an error, but the story above shows that it wasn't. What amazed me about the passenger eval's, however, was that Tower Air was shown in green (for "good"). Must not be a random or large sample.
VirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1692 times:
I flew them in 1996 JFK-SFO worst decision I've ever mad. No food, torn seat cushions, graffiti on bathroom walls and rude FAs who constantly hate each other. I'm saddened that the famous and wonderful birds of PAN AM, Lufthansa and TWA turned out to die a slow and miserable deaths by Terror Air. They should've died a quick death by being destroyed in the dessert and turned into soda cans. What did these lovely planes do to anyone to be suffering in such a painful and humiliating fashion by being put with one of the worst airlines on earth
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4315 posts, RR: 19 Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1629 times:
I wrote my congresswoman and senators the other day; I am sure that it will be some time before I hear a reply. It just *amazes* me that the AMC shows *positive* pax feedback about Tower. Could this be because military folks think it is futile to complain?
DC-9CAPT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1628 times:
Firstly, for Oiler: I'm straightened out now on the "fuel dump" that I supposedly saw. Call it a tall-tale or whatever you want, I thought I stated that I wasn't familiar with 747 ops. We just barely limped into the air on that take-off roll and there was a mist of fuel coming out of the starboard wing. I remember it vividly.
Secondly for AA61hvy. That Tower 747 was there (DFW) in late August of 1985 on its way out to Yuma from the east coast. Made sense to stop there for fuel since they couldn't get it at Cherry Point or Beaufort.
I checked out the AMC website (I'm off until Sat and the wife and kids are at grammas--I got time on my hands). I didn't see any PAX satisfaction. It was all blank. For wjcandee--are you sure that you saw PAX satisfaction? I know Customer satisfaction sucks. Tower never gets where they need to be on time, and the DOD is the customer as a whole--not the PAX.
As far as PAX are concerned, they do get survey cards. Are these read? Probably not. In fact they are probably pitched into the round file. Tower's obligation is to provide a meal, blankets, and headphones for a movie (if it works), The contract administrators are happy if all of the above is met. Now, if those cream pie eating GS civilians are inundated with cards that state "The Tower Air 747 n610ff had a booger on the wall next to 38J" or "The flight attendant called me an a##hole when I asked her for a coke" or "My seat wouldn't recline", they will toss those in the trash. It doesn't matter because there is no way to quantify it on a spreadsheet. Hell, they saved Uncle Sam a bundle by contracting Tower over Northwest anyways. There is even a picture of a Tower 74 on the AMC website. It's so convenient to quickly sweep the crap under the rug just like they did with Arrow (who still flies cargo by the way).
Finally, Congresspeople are out to save their constituents a buck. Hell, Tower is doing it. For all the complaints, they can come back and say "Well, Tower has never had a fatal accident" or "They flew all those refugees back safely from Kosovo".
I don't know how or why Tower is still flying our troops. I guess the term "Lowest Bidder" looms large.
Nicolaki From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1702 times:
Listen to this crap. So outragiously funny. Taken from Tower Air website
It is Mr. Nachtomi's long-standing belief that attention to detail is essential for the success of any enterprise.
"At Tower Air, excellent results are obtained in a 'partnership' atmosphere. This type of operating environment attracts and stimulates talented, motivated people. Thus, we are making considerable strides each day toward extending our ability to better serve our passengers."
Ilyushin96M From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2609 posts, RR: 16 Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1594 times:
Here's the edited version:
"At Tower Air, excellent results are distained in our 'partnership' atmosphere. This type of operating environment attacks and exterminates talented, motivated people. Thus, we are making considerable strides each day toward extending our ability to better screw our passengers."
Varsity From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1593 times:
I only know two people who did business with them and both of them were bad.
My parents flew them with a tour group JFK-LHR-TLV rt a few years ago. They had to return to LHR on the way back because of a landing gear problem. They said the plane was "very old and creepy".
And a buddy of mine was on their plane that crashed on takeoff at JFK at Christmas time a few years ago. After they were stuck in the plane (which he said reeked of fuel) for a long time they offloaded them into a hangar and kept them there for another long time. Then they brought them back to Tower's "terminal" which is the old Pan Am hangar at JFK, and tried to tell him if he didn't get on another flight right away he would be forfeiting his ticket. After an uncharacteristic fit, he was given a two-day reprieve because he was in no state to go on another plane.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4315 posts, RR: 19 Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1593 times:
DC9CAPT: Yeah, starting in the 2nd Quarter 2000, they have data for the international charter carriers. Go to the AMC homepage, click on Carrier Evaluations in the "business" section, then click on 2nd Q 2000. Tower, World and ATA all have green blocks in the pax eval section; others have "no data". They also have "service quality" or something; that must be a measure if the blankets are out and the movie worked.
I also noticed that Air Tranport International has an *enormous* number of missions in each quarter. I know them only from the charred hunk of tail on the runway after they crashed doing something. (I always confuse the Guantanamo Bay accident and carrier, which I think was American International, with ATI (not to be confused with ATA), which I think crashed after screwing up a 3-engine takeoff in a DC8.) In any event, I assume that they only do combi flights, and perhaps they have a large number of missions because they fly short legs. Dunno; I was just surprised to see them as having the most missions of any carrier in two quarters in a row (as well as good evaluations and on-time performance).
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4315 posts, RR: 19 Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1561 times:
DC9CAPT: Thanks for all your input. I wonder whether the latest incident will be enough to halt the work. Probably not, sadly. I guess it will take an accident.
Oflove13 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 114 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1543 times:
Being that i am a flight attendant for Tower Air i have a million stories, but i just want to set the record. We do most of the Military Charters because we have the biggest planes and can carry the most troops and equiptment the military loves us for that. Now Before the plane goes ANYWHERE on a military flight the military personal checks over every nut and bold on the plane, one day they wouldnt let u leave until we fixed one of the flight attendant call lights over a seat. so if u are in the military get use to us because we do 75% of the military, us gov and UN charters
747Oiler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1515 times:
"Now Before the plane goes ANYWHERE on a military flight the military personal checks over every nut and bold on the plane...."
That's crap! The low ranking G.I.s that do the inspections don't have 747 maintenance or flying experience. They concentrate on audio/visual systems, passenger comfort items, emergency lighting and cabin/lav cleanliness. They don't have the expertise to determine the plane's airworthiness. I suspect that the few crews who remain at Tower are "carrying" broken airplanes in an effort to keep the company alive. The military doesn't have a clue! They'll unknowingly let an airplane fly with a defective engine as long as the movie screen in "C" zone gets fixed before departure.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4315 posts, RR: 19 Reply 24, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1494 times:
That must be what is meant by "service quality" on the AMC web site, as opposed to "passenger evaluations". (And the GIs must have missed the booger on the wall next to 38J with the arrows pointing at it and the circle around it in black magic marker.) :->
Acvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 921 posts, RR: 16 Reply 25, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1472 times:
He did not miss it he added the second one on the wall in the circle of ink..
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