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A319 London - New York  
User currently offlinePlanesailing From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 816 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 9369 times:

The Airbus website states the following:

A319 operational flexibility provides range possibilities of 3,700 nm./6,800 km., and longer for non-stop trans-Atlantic flights.

It is possible with a cabin of 8F/116Y to make this route, and make it profitably?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9268 times:

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
It is possible with a cabin of 8F/116Y to make this route

Yes it is.

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
and make it profitably?

That will depend only on the fares proposed, airline management, load factors, etc ...


User currently offlineMNeo From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2004, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9226 times:

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):

It is possible with a cabin of 8F/116Y to make this route, and make it profitably?

Techincally no. The landing fees would be way to big to support a 116Y config. More likely would be 14xweekly flights with a 319CJ in a 40J seat config, with a dedicated check in and security(one can only dream). Otherwise the Big Boys(AA VS BA UA CO) take the win.
Small Jets are profitable if 1)they run high Jclass markets (Privat air comes to mind) and 2) if they do many cycles a day (LCCs) The longhaul Narrow body in an mostly Y config has basically no chance.

Also can an A319 make LON-NYC with a full payload? Any ETOPS restrictions if operating with a full load?

[Edited 2005-09-29 03:43:10]


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User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9120 times:

Quoting MNeo (Reply 2):
Also can an A319 make LON-NYC with a full payload?

LON-NYC = 5583km / 3015nm / 3469mi

Range of an A319* with full PAX playload + Baggage allowance + fuel reserves + other airline operating rules (such as weather conditions, head/tail wind) :

3700nm / 6800km.

* figures for a "standard" A319-100, not an A319CJ.

Quoting MNeo (Reply 2):
Any ETOPS restrictions if operating with a full load?

No particular ETOPS restrictions on this route.
ETOPS doesn't have anything to do with full/not full load.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9086 times:

Quoting MNeo (Reply 2):
The longhaul Narrow body in an mostly Y config has basically no chance.

What about CO's 757's??


User currently offlinePaul From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 374 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8681 times:

I would not pay to go that flight, the First Class would be terrible unless decent 50inch seat pitch recliners or beds were installed. But that would obviously take up a lot of room. It would be pretty stuffy in that thin stubborn tube.

Paul



Veni, vidi, vici.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26789 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8611 times:

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
A319 operational flexibility provides range possibilities of 3,700 nm./6,800 km., and longer for non-stop trans-Atlantic flights.

ACT equipped A32S have proven not to have the range claimed. In fact, the added weight of the tank burns off the extra fuel. The ACT was designed for the A321 and only really works on that, hence there are no 3,700nm A319s out there

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
It is possible with a cabin of 8F/116Y to make this route, and make it profitably?

No



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN770WD From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 126 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8555 times:

For an A319 operating LON to JFK during the winter, block fuel is 44,000, contingency and reserves (assuming ETOPS) would vary by carrier but likely around 9,000, for total fuel of about 53,000 lbs. With a max takeoff weight of 166,500 and empty weight of about 96,000 pounds, that would leave:

166,500 TOW
-96,000 OEW
-53,000 Fuel
-------------
17,500 payload

That translates to about 75-80 passengers on average.

Note the aircraft must have at least 2 auxiliary center tanks installed to make it with ETOPS reserves. 53,000 pounds of fuel is about 7,850 gallons. Standard A319-100 fuel capacity is 6,300 gallons. 2 ACTs buys you 7,885. So an A319ER with 2 ACTs has the fuel capacity to run the route. An A319LR buys you 9,354 gallons of capacity with four ACTs.

This also assumes the aircraft is operated ETOPS/180. With less ETOPS capability the payload will go down quickly. Note that you can load additional aux fuel tanks, but the fuel comes 1:1 from payload as the MTOW is capped at 166,500.

So the A319 can work in an all-business configuration (44 pax * 255 lbs = 11,000 pounds of payload) but not in a mixed configuration at that stage length -- and aux fuel tanks don't solve the problem.


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8278 times:

Why would I want to limit my choice by flying on a once a day A319 over the almost hourly regular widebodies?


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineMNeo From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2004, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
What about CO's 757's??

Do any of CO's 757 compeate with any other airlines?
Also the 757 seats about 70 passengers more than the A319



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User currently offline3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7732 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):

No particular ETOPS restrictions on this route.
ETOPS doesn't have anything to do with full/not full load.

That's not necessarily true. If the ETOPS divert scenarios require extra fuel uplift beyond what would normally be carried for the trip and all the contingency fuel, it can reduce payload. In the winter especially, if many divert airports aren't available due to weather, and icing conditions exist everywhere, ETOPS can cause extra fuel uplift that limits payload on aircraft operating near their range-payload limit, plus can force the route to be non-optimal to ensure coverage. Ask European charter operators about Carribbean ops in the winter and what effect ETOPS can have on payload.


User currently offlineAirman99o From Canada, joined Aug 1999, 980 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

Skyservice airlines was going to operate the 319 from YHZ to Malaga I think?? Not too sure what happend to that routing. Hmm wait now I think I do Conquest was to be the provider for that flight. not sure if that is a longer flight. and we have 144 passengers on the 319. BLAH what a horrible way to fly across the pond! Hmmm alomst as bad as the 757 in the fleet :P

airman99o



Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6169 times:

Not sure if it was already mentioned but Privatair runs flights from ORD and EWR (I think) to MUC using A319s in all J class configurations.


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineScotland1979 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 548 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5671 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

No way!!
I have been on A319 before on a short hop from Heathrow to Frankfurt. It is small tube and I couldn't imagine the London-New York flight. Flight across Atlantic Ocean, the wind out there too much tubulence for a small plane like A319 - alot of passengers might throw up....

I would go for 757 instead but I would say 744 and 772 suit best for transatlantic  melting 



Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" - John 14:6
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5586 times:

Quoting Scotland1979 (Reply 13):
the wind out there too much tubulence for a small plane like A319 - alot of passengers might throw up....

HAHAHAHA. People fly in Biz jets across the pond regularly, I'm sure an A319 could survive it if people do it in stuff like Challengers. Likewise, there's more turbulence in places like crossing the Rocky Mountains than in the middle of the ocean. Sure there's alot of wind in the Atlantic, but it's not mountain-generated wave turbulence or something over a flat expanse like that.


User currently offlineAv8rDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 463 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

I do recall reading a trip report a while back of someone taking a PrivatAir (operated for LH) flight from DUS-EWR in the 737NG. I think it was 50 pax in an F configuration. Smooth flight and good, attentive service. The only complaint was the higher cabin noise since the 737 is apparently noisier than a widebody due to sound insulation or cabin size or what have you.

The 319 is also used by PrivatAir...and I think their model is the only way it could be profitable. You just would have to make it an exclusive experience with a few pax paying a high fare for pamper-me-continuously service if you wanted to gain market share from those who already have a great First Class product in that market (BA, VS, AA).

Could be done, maybe. After all, Concorde did it all these years. The A319 does not cost as much as Concorde to operate, however.



Maintain thine airspeed, lest the Earth rise up and smite thee.
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Flying UK-east coast USA/Canada isn't a particularly long route.

Flying in a A320 class aircraft could be rather nice as you get served quicker and more intimate, relaxed, service.

I'd give it a go.

Cheers  Smile


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5077 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
ACT equipped A32S have proven not to have the range claimed. In fact, the added weight of the tank burns off the extra fuel. The ACT was designed for the A321 and only really works on that, hence there are no 3,700nm A319s out there

Ugh, this again?

The ACT doesn't work great on the A320. Clearly the ACT works great on the A319 since even further additional tankage is added to make it a 319CJ.

N


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4990 times:

Is the A319 or A318 (or the B737-600/700 for that matter) LCY certified?
I'm just thinking loud; and too bad LGA doesn't have US inmigrations and customs or LCY a overseas US Federal Inspection...



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4755 times:

Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 15):
PrivatAir (operated for LH) flight from DUS-EWR in the 737NG. I think it was 50 pax

44 PAX

Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 15):
in an F configuration

J (Business) Configuration.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 18):
Is the A319 or A318 (or the B737-600/700 for that matter) LCY certified?

Definately not the A319.

A Steep approach certification process for the A318 has started ...

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2277769


User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4647 times:

Quoting MNeo (Reply 9):
Also the 757 seats about 70 passengers more than the A319

...and the 757 lands at airports such as BRS, and soon NCL, which presumably have lower landing fees than LHR for example. I can see the A319 making it JFK-LHR, but I wonder how often the westbound return would have to but down at Halifax (Nova Scotia) to take on more fuel


User currently offlineCxh From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4460 times:

Quoting Airman99o (Reply 11):
Skyservice airlines was going to operate the 319 from YHZ to Malaga I think?? Not too sure what happend to that routing. Hmm wait now I think I do Conquest was to be the provider for that flight. not sure if that is a longer flight. and we have 144 passengers on the 319. BLAH what a horrible way to fly across the pond! Hmmm alomst as bad as the 757 in the fleet :P

It was going to be true...

Conquest as the Tour Operator announced in early 2002 and started to sell YHZ-YYT-LGW for Summer 2002 (or was Summer 2003?) using the Skyservice A319. It was going to be YHZ-YYT-LGW and return 2x week. However, they cancelled before the first flight.

I don't see why flying any narrowbody transatlantic would be a pain versus a wide body. What really counts is seat pitch and design, IFE, service quality, etc. As someone mentioned, private jets do it all the time.



I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4437 times:

What about BOS? I could see 737NG,A32X service between BOS and smaller airports in Ireland, for example...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
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