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Domestic Growth At JFK:16.4%, EWR 1.6%  
User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3599 posts, RR: 6
Posted (9 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

This is a branch off another topic involving JFK-ORD flights.

1.For too long, I have listened to member consistently say that JFK is not capable of sustaining domestic service. This simply isn't true.

2.I have heard that people from Manhattan don't use JFK for domestic flights. This simply isn't true.

3.For too long I have heard that EWR and LGA are the domestic gateways to NYC . . . these numbers show that that statement is no longer true.

From the Port Authority of NY and NJ website..www.panynj.gov

All stats are for 12 months ending in July 2005

JFK:
Domestic 21,614,784
Int'l: 18,435, 633
Total: 40,050,417 16.4% Domestic growth year over year

EWR:
Domestic: 23,072,229
Intl: 9,184,253
Total:32,256,482 1.6% Domestic growth year over year

LGA:
Domestic: 24,341,846
Intl: 1,517,127
Total: 25,858,973 8.4% Domestic growth year over year

There are huge gaps in JFK's domestic system . .. ORD remains one. But my theory is that this is due to Legacy Carriers forcing people to use their flights at the other two airports.

Where is CO's presence at JFK?? Nada. USAir? Less than Nada. Northwest? Quite a Joke!

Stats show that domestic travel at all three airports is pretty consistent and that domestic travel at JFK is growing much faster than at EWR or LGA.

One can also deduce that many of the 21,000,000+ people coming to JFK to travel domestically are coming from Manhattan.

JetBlue and DL (to some extent) continue to profit most from JFK.


PJ

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Thread starter):
One can also deduce that many of the 21,000,000+ people coming to JFK to travel domestically are coming from Manhattan.

it's not 21million people. it's 21million arriving and departing tickets. and there is not doubt that some of the people are coming from manhattan, some from long island, some from new york state, some from connecticut.

what is your freaking point?

jfk is still in 3rd domestically, but first by far internationally. further, because it is so huge internationally, for those CONNECTING at JFK domestically, the traffic is also a big chunk.

add to that the JetBlue situation, and the fact they are GROWING, and, well, you get the growth figure.

I really don't get your point. JFK is still in 3rd, and it is not the preferred airport for domestic flying. People hate trying to get there, especially from New Jersey, the west side of manhattan, the upper east side, the financial district, etc.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3135 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I really don't get your point. JFK is still in 3rd, and it is not the preferred airport for domestic flying. People hate trying to get there, especially from New Jersey, the west side of manhattan, the upper east side, the financial district, etc.

... and then they get to LaGuardia, board their plane, wait 2 hours on the tarmac because the wind blew the wrong way and now they're 56th in line for takeoff. So YAY for getting to LGA quicker!! Boy, what a difference those extra 30 minutes make, not going down the Van Wyck!

 sarcastic 
 sarcastic 
 sarcastic 
 sarcastic 


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Thread starter):
Where is CO's presence at JFK?? Nada. USAir? Less than Nada. Northwest? Quite a Joke!

CO offers more capacity on their JFK-IAH flights then AA with their new JFK-ORD flights, CO flies 1 daily 737-500 between IAH and JFK.

EWR and LGA have more domestic carriers than JFK, LGA gets Frontier.

EWR gets Alaska, ATA, Airtran, USA 3000, Hooters Air, Independence Air etc..

Also keep in mind EWR is going to get a big boost in Domestic travelers when B6 launches their EWR flights, in two weeks B6 will be flying from EWR to FLL, RSW, PBI, MCO, TPA, SJU etc..

[Edited 2005-09-29 16:53:24]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3599 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

"I really don't get your point. JFK is still in 3rd, and it is not the preferred airport for domestic flying."

Third and coming baby!!! Right on ur heels. The gap is now as small as ever.

Point being, with a new rail link, new terminals, and the only airport with room for growth . . . JFK will become a major domestic airport in the next few years.

PJ


User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I really don't get your point. JFK is still in 3rd, and it is not the preferred airport for domestic flying. People hate trying to get there, especially from New Jersey, the west side of manhattan, the upper east side, the financial district, etc.

The point is JFK has a great deal of domestic service and with that growth rate it'll probably pass the other two, and FYI for all the areas that you mention have the same difficulty getting to LGA as to JFK. Do you know how close the two are?
Also you should consider this too...

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 2):
and then they get to LaGuardia, board their plane, wait 2 hours on the tarmac because the wind blew the wrong way and now they're 56th in line for takeoff. So YAY for getting to LGA quicker!! Boy, what a difference those extra 30 minutes make, not going down the Van Wyck!

Exactly



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2986 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
Point being, with a new rail link, new terminals, and the only airport with room for growth . . . JFK will become a major domestic airport in the next few years.

More like in the next 22 years.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 2):
... and then they get to LaGuardia, board their plane, wait 2 hours on the tarmac because the wind blew the wrong way and now they're 56th in line for takeoff. So YAY for getting to LGA quicker!! Boy, what a difference those extra 30 minutes make, not going down the Van Wyck!

Yeah, that argument really holds water when you look at the first place status and the lack of connecting traffic in comparison to EWR and JFK, especially internationally.

Taking an HONEST look at the numbers says LGA is the prefered airport for new yorkers, and ewr is the prefered airport for new jersey and some in lower manhattan.

I lived there too, you know. LGA was the easiest from the upper east side, JFK was the worst. LGA had the cheapest cab fares, and if there was bad traffic to get to LGA, it was only going to be worse for longer to get to JFK.

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
Third and coming baby!!! Right on ur heels. The gap is now as small as ever.

Whatever. You haven't shown evidence that the bulk of the traffic isn't connecting traffic outside of the B6 growth. And B6 future growth is not entirely out of JFK, but EWR and other airports around the country. Your growth is slowing.

Combine that with the general limitation of domestic growth by legacies over the last 4 years, and the focus on international now, and the ONLY reason JFK has had that growth is because B6 based themselves there, and the only reason they did that was that it was so far in 3rd place it had a lot of room...

But looking at the figures, if you are still going to pin your entire argument on B6, I have a bridge you might want. It's not to far from your house.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 5):
Exactly

Exactly what? Exactly that JFK is easier to get to? Are you crazy?

All airports in the area can be a bitch to get to. But JFK is the hardest, unless you live closer to it than the others.

Evidence of JFK not being the prefered airport is that AA and CO barely serve it from their hubs. Why? Because CO sees no point, and AA only sees it as a connection point to LHR, Japan and Transcon. Those destinations are served already by AA at other hubs, so why fly to JFK unless the originating hub doesn't serve LHR or Japan? And CO doesn't fly internationally from JFK, so why fly there? Your claim is because O/D people want to fly into/out of JFK.

But obviously business people and residents alike are NOT demanding it. B6 is forcing the issue, but if they started at EWR, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Another huge carrier would not have come in and done what B6 did. That's why AA and CO both server LGA for local traffic, and why AA serves EWR so heavily, even from hubs. Because that's where O/D people prefer to go...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Exactly what? Exactly that JFK is easier to get to? Are you crazy?

I think you are misreading my post I was quoting FA4B6(see reply too).

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Evidence of JFK not being the prefered airport is that AA and CO barely serve it from their hubs. Why? Because CO sees no point,

Hmm, maybe the reason CO sees no point is they don't want 2 hubs in what 20 miles proxomity? AA does serve JFK pretty heavily might want to check your numbers.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
But obviously business people and residents alike are NOT demanding it. B6 is forcing the issue

Forcing the issue as in they are unsuccesful but still pushing it?
The matter of the fact is B6 did choose JFK and are growing there, so with B6 and others it will continue to grow. I'm sure the other two will grow too, but the numbers show that JFK will grow more than the others. Why is that bad can I ask?



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3012 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
what is your freaking point?

Maybe his freaking point is that JFK's domestic growth grew by 16% over last year.

And you're asking for evidence about these passengers not being connecting ones. How do you know that they are connecting passengers?

We have a lot of evidence for why this growth is from O&D passengers, especially with JetBlue. Since July '04, they launched: PHX (1), PDX (1), BUR (4), and put additional frequencies to many cities this past summer (LGB, SEA, SJC, ONT, etc.). The very large amount of JetBlue's traffic is not connecting, but instead is making NYC its final destination.

DL also expanded JFK domestically: LAX seats grew, SFO seats grew, and SEA seats grew.

So what was your freaking point again?

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 9):
Maybe his freaking point is that JFK's domestic growth grew by 16% over last year.

And they still are third behind EWR and LGA Domesitcally.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 9):
DL also expanded JFK domestically: LAX seats grew, SFO seats grew, and SEA seats grew.

UAL shrunk significantly, their PS 757s hold about 105 people or the same as CO's 737-500s or NWA's DC-9s. Going from a 200+ seat 767 to 105 757 is a dramatic reduction in capacity for UAL at JFK.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3012 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2854 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
And they still are third behind EWR and LGA Domesitcally.

What does that have to do with anything? That wasn't the point he was trying to make. The point he was trying to make was that JFK's domestic traffic increased by 16% over last year, and that is in fact a much faster rate than either LGA or EWR. End of point.

I also think it's important to mention that JetBlue's load factor increased this July over last year's, and considering that the vast majority of their seats have to deal with the JFK market, they were most likely carrying more passengers per flight this year over last.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3599 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2808 times:

Ikramerica says:

"You haven't shown evidence that the bulk of the traffic isn't connecting traffic outside of the B6 growth"

"and the ONLY reason JFK has had that growth is because B6 based themselves there, and the only reason they did that was that it was so far in 3rd place it had a lot of room..."

You kind of contradict urself here. If most of the growth is B6 (and they don't interline or codeshare with any carrier) one has to assume that the growth at JFK is not because of connecting passengers but O&D passengers.

As for more proof that the growth is really associated with B6 and nothing to do with connecting to intl flights:

1998 343,565 31,708,431
1999 343,388 31,708,431
2000 345,311 32,827,864
2001 294,026 29,350,052
2002 287,699 29,939,212
2003 280,302 31,732,446

For years, JFK was stuck around the 30 million pax mark. Last year it hit 37,000,000 and this year will surpass 40 million pax!

Has AA grown at JFK? Has UAL? Has NW? Has CO? A resounding no to all three. Actually, they have all shrunk at JFK since 9/11.

That means that the strong domestic growth came from two places: Song/Delta and JetBlue.

One must assume that JetBlue passengers are not connecting to intl flights. And most of DLs new flights were not timed to meet int'l connections.

YOU ASKED FOR MORE DATA...I PROVIDED. Domestic growth at JFK has nothing to do with int'l connections and everything to do with a strong desire for domestic flights there that was always overlooked by the legacy carriers.

PJ


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
That's why AA and CO both server LGA for local traffic, and why AA serves EWR so heavily, even from hubs.

I wouldn't call AA's service level at EWR "heavy" - more like "respectably moderate" instead.  wink 


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13446 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2757 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
People hate trying to get there, especially from New Jersey, the west side of manhattan, the upper east side, the financial district, etc.

I'll grant that the upper west side, middtown and the upper east side all have alternate airports that are prefered. However, my experience going upper east side to JFK has been a breeze.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Also keep in mind EWR is going to get a big boost in Domestic travelers when B6 launches their EWR flights, in two weeks B6 will be flying from EWR to FLL, RSW, PBI, MCO, TPA, SJU etc.

As much as I'd like to pump B6, the reality is that B6 won't get enough gates at EWR to give it a "big boost." EWR will get a "boost" as the press will help CO sell more tickets. (B6 too, but CO has the gates with which to move more aircraft at EWR.)

I have to admit I'm surprised that EWR has about half the international traffic that JFK does. Is getting international terminal gates tougher at EWR? Please note I'm asking. I'm curious to know why the discrepancy in international boardings.

Also, since its relevant to this topic, when does AA's refurbished terminal reopen? Does anyone have a link to its progress? A link that is actually updated!  duck  Seriously, excluding "temp gates," I do not see how anyone could grow quickly at JFK until the B6 terminal is completed. (Please, I hope to be proven wrong! Tell me about available gates at any NYC airport.)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCO757bos2iah From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2742 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 12):
Has AA grown at JFK? Has UAL? Has NW? Has CO? A resounding no to all three. Actually, they have all shrunk at JFK since 9/11.

Why would we need to grow domestically when we have probably our most profitable hub ( an international gateway ) that feeds to almost every imaginable destionation in the US at EWR ?

There's an hub less than ( I don't live in the NYC area ) what less than 20 miles away ? Whats your point ? We're doing fine domestically in EWR, why the need for redundancy ?



Continental Airlines. We span the globe,because the world is your workplace.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2741 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
Is getting international terminal gates tougher at EWR?

EWR's Terminal B IAB has more gates than JFK's T-4, it's not as busy since CO opened their own 19 Gate IAB at Terminal C. With CO's continued International expansion they are again using Terminal B for some International Flights.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

Does this thread qualify as the Fall season 2005 EWR vs JFK thread?  

If so, let me post some of the arguments that have been gone over here time and time again:

EWR is more convenient to get to.
No it isn't, JFK is.

EWR is a backwater airport.
No it isn't!

JFK is the prestige airport.
No, it's old and run down.

The Port Authority sees the 4 NYC area airports as a single, integrated system.



Can't think of anymore of the often used arguments promoting one over the other at the moment, but I'm sure they'll be resurrected here soon!



[Edited 2005-09-30 04:00:16]

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13446 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2719 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 16):

EWR's Terminal B IAB has more gates than JFK's T-4, it's not as busy since CO opened their own 19 Gate IAB at Terminal C. With CO's continued International expansion they are again using Terminal B for some International Flights.

Thanks. I went to google, found a terminal map and airline allocation. What surprised me is the number of airlines using B.
http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/ealframe.htm

After B6 grabs their EWR gates (if I recall correctly, 3 gates), are any EWR domestic gates left "up for grabs?"

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2711 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
After B6 grabs their EWR gates (if I recall correctly, 3 gates), are any EWR domestic gates left "up for grabs?"

Not domestic but plenty of IAB gates.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2678 times:

Quoting CO757bos2iah (Reply 15):
There's an hub less than ( I don't live in the NYC area ) what less than 20 miles away ? Whats your point ? We're doing fine domestically in EWR, why the need for redundancy ?

That was a reply to this statement:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Evidence of JFK not being the prefered airport is that AA and CO barely serve it from their hubs. Why? Because CO sees no point,

The fact that CO doesn't need a JFK presence is because their biggest hub in the world is miles away, I was just pointing the obvious which ikramerica can't see.



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
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