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BOS-NRT: Has Anyone Flown This Non-stop?  
User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7640 times:

Has this route ever been served non-stop? It seems like it could be very profitable. Does anyone have passenger figures between the two-airports?

Philadelphia also seems like a logical candidate for a non-stop to Tokyo. Has this route ever been serviced?

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11983 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7582 times:

The route has never had a nonstop. AA applied for, and received approval for, the route back in 1999. They wanted to fly a daily MD11 BOS-NRT-BOS. However, while the route authority was granted, AA could never secure the slots at NRT. By the time slots became available, the tech bubble had collapsed, thus evaporating much of the demand that would have made this market profitable. AA still holds the route authority. Even today, though, I think that the route could be flown with a 3x weekly 777 offering onward connections via JAL to cities around Asia, particularly Korea.

User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7544 times:

Thanks Commavia. I thought I had remembered reading that at one point. Perhaps when Northwest gets its 787's this route could become a reality if they get the authority from AA.

User currently offlineSupa7e7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7486 times:

Could an MD-11 really do BOS-NRT with a stiff winter headwind?

User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8663 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7451 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
Even today, though, I think that the route could be flown with a 3x weekly 777 offering onward connections via JAL to cities around Asia, particularly Korea.

The problem with a non-daily flight is that you keep business travellers out of it thus making it a very low yield route. I don't think Boston would generate enough demand for coach to NRT, even if only 3 times a week. If you want your yields to be high enough to offset lack of coach passengers then you need to offer it as a daily service to attract premium passengers.

Another issue is that there are plenty of options for one-stop travel to just about anywhere in Asia from Boston. BOS is very well served both to Europe and all major Hubs in the US. You can get to just about anywhere in the World from Boston with just one stop in between. So AA would have to rely substantially on O&D traffic to make a route to NRT profitable.

And last but not least, the Red Sox don't have a Japanese superstar baseball player  Smile


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7325 times:

IIRC, NW used to have a direct flight (but change of aircraft was required) at DTW.


"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7294 times:

I did Northwest 3 once from Boston to Narita. Same flight number but a change-of-gauge en route. It was (when I took the flight in 1995) a 727-200 from Boston to O'Hare, connecting to a 747-200 from there to Narita. On the way back I was on a 747-400 from NRT to DTW, connecting to a 757 from there to Boston. Different flight numbers on those two flights, though.

The high-tech traffic that would make a BOS-NRT nonstop at least reasonably sensible has dried up. And there is something to be said for doing that long flight in two segments, if only for the chance to get off and stretch your legs. The only Asian nonstop to/from Boston was Korean Air's 747-400s that went to/from Seoul. I recall that the flights--in one direction or the other--went via Dulles or JFK. But in the other direction it was truly a nonstop. And if I also recall correctly, the money-maker was the freight down below...not the people up above.

Chris in NH


User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7257 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 6):
The high-tech traffic that would make a BOS-NRT nonstop at least reasonably sensible has dried up. And there is something to be said for doing that long flight in two segments, if only for the chance to get off and stretch your legs.

you need to stretch your legs after BOS - DTW? what is that, a 90 minute flight?

Quoting PavlovsDog (Thread starter):
Philadelphia also seems like a logical candidate for a non-stop to Tokyo. Has this route ever been serviced?

PHL - NRT would probably make slightly more sense than BOS - NRT from an O&D standpoint, since philadelphia and its surrounding metro area is something like 3 times the size of boston. however, there aren't logical connectors between the two cities in terms of industry and/or tourism. plus, as has been said before, you can very easily fly from PHL - DTW or ORD many times daily and connect to NRT in a very quick and relatively direct way.

furthermore, there are no airlines currently at PHL that would initiate such a flight. this certainly is not in US's plans, and wouldn't be for a long time unless their new model with HP generates incredible growth and they buy up NW, their planes, and their slots -- which probably won't happen but i guess you never really know.

sorry for the tangent, but a US/HP/NW merger could create an airline with some incredible reach. maybe i'll start another thread!


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7243 times:

American Airlines got the slots for BOS-NRT and even started selling seats on the a daily non-stop 777 flight, but the economic bust of 1999 canceled the route before it's 1 April 1999 launch date.

[Edited 2005-09-29 19:16:30]


a.
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

BOS did have non-stop service to ICN for a while on KE. This was around 1999/2000. I was taking the daily AA947, a 767-200 flight BOS-DFW-LIM, when I saw a KE 744 land at Logan while we were on the taxiway. I think they had 3xweekly or every other day, not sure.

UAL


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7214 times:

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 7):
PHL - NRT would probably make slightly more sense than BOS - NRT from an O&D standpoint, since philadelphia and its surrounding metro area is something like 3 times the size of boston.

According to Wikipedia Metro Areas, Philadelphia has 5.6 million while Boston has 4.3 million giving them rankings of 4th and 10th place. Miami with 5 million doesn't have non-stops to Europe either.

I imagine a lot of the people in the Philly area would just as well make the drive to Newark though. Bostonians have no such option.


User currently offlineLatinAviation From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1279 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7190 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 10):
Miami with 5 million doesn't have non-stops to Europe either.

Miami doesn't have non-stops to Europe? AA, AF, AZ, BA, LX, LH, VS all offer non-stop service from Miami to Europe.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7178 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 9):
BOS did have non-stop service to ICN for a while on KE. This was around 1999/2000. I was taking the daily AA947, a 767-200 flight BOS-DFW-LIM, when I saw a KE 744 land at Logan while we were on the taxiway. I think they had 3xweekly or every other day, not sure.

The flight operate via JFK and later IAD. I don't recall, though, if it was a turn-around (i.e. ICN-IAD-BOS-IAD-ICN) or a triangle (like ICN-BOS-IAD-ICN).



a.
User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7153 times:

Quoting LatinAviation (Reply 11):
Miami doesn't have non-stops to Europe? AA, AF, AZ, BA, LX, LH, VS all offer non-stop service from Miami to Europe.

That was obviously a typo since the topic of discussion is Asia. I myself have flown non-stop to Miami from Europe so I know. NW flies to AMS too doesn't it and IB to Madrid. Never mind though. Miami doesn't have any flights to Asia though, does it?

If only the spell-checker had a content checker too.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7112 times:

I **think** that JAL has received authorized (but obviously dormant) rights to Boston. I cannot think of any high-demand international routes out of Boston that aren't already being served. A handful of S. American routes come to mind but even there the closest we come is AA with their ad hoc service (Saturday 777s to Santo Domingo, to name one).

Chris in NH


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7064 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):

The flight operate via JFK and later IAD. I don't recall, though, if it was a turn-around (i.e. ICN-IAD-BOS-IAD-ICN) or a triangle (like ICN-BOS-IAD-ICN).

Flight was operated on a triange - SEL-BOS-JFK/IAD-SEL (at this point, I don't believe ICN had opened yet...). I remember the flight being on a 747-400...don't remember if the 777 was ever used.

Jeff


User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days ago) and read 7005 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 10):
Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 7):
PHL - NRT would probably make slightly more sense than BOS - NRT from an O&D standpoint, since philadelphia and its surrounding metro area is something like 3 times the size of boston.

According to Wikipedia Metro Areas, Philadelphia has 5.6 million while Boston has 4.3 million giving them rankings of 4th and 10th place. Miami with 5 million doesn't have non-stops to Europe either.

I imagine a lot of the people in the Philly area would just as well make the drive to Newark though. Bostonians have no such option.

i'm not going to doubt your numbers, but philadelphia as a city has 1.45 million people. boston has about 500,000. sometimes, those measures of metro regions are deceiving. it's quite possible that manchester, NH is included in the boston figures, and they have their own airport.

speaking as a native philadelphian, i would rather gouge my eyes out with an ice pick than drive to newark for a flight. CO flight from ERW to CDG? three hours on the road (on a good day!), nine hours in a jet, -- $500. US flight from PHL to CDG? fifteen minutes on the road, nine hours in a jet -- $450.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days ago) and read 6939 times:

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 16):
i'm not going to doubt your numbers, but philadelphia as a city has 1.45 million people. boston has about 500,000. sometimes, those measures of metro regions are deceiving. it's quite possible that manchester, NH is included in the boston figures, and they have their own airport.

His numbers are 100% accurate and Manchester definitley is not in the Boston MSA. There is a consolidated Boston-Manchester metro region that includes Manchester, but it is not the one he was quoting and is rarely used, as the US census no longer offically recognizes CMSAs.

Metro regions are definitley not decieving. Especially when you have a city like Boston, which is 48 square miles of land, and a city like Philadelphia, which is a more sprawling 135 square miles.



a.
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6907 times:

The Boston metro area is quite small, and doesn't include a lot of the areas around it, which I think is why the population is so small. Also, it has a lot of transient population, but those types only fly twice a year, really.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 6):
The high-tech traffic that would make a BOS-NRT nonstop at least reasonably sensible has dried up. And there is something to be said for doing that long flight in two segments, if only for the chance to get off and stretch your legs.

You gotta be kidding me. Even if direct, BOS-NRT is only about 12 hours or so. That's hardly anything in these days of 16 hour monster segments... when you have to watch 8 movies and are still in the air, you know it's bad!

I would love to see a BOS-NRT, but that's unlikely. It really is just O&D traffic for this route, but I'd love it since it will cut my flying time to HKG. Having to switch in LAX or EWR is a bit of a detour.... and I wouldn't mind a two day stop in Japan  Smile


User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6716 times:

Quoting .....Tockeyhockey (Reply 7):
furthermore, there are no airlines currently at PHL that would initiate such a flight. this certainly is not in US's plans...,

Actually it was. A few years ago, US had a "wish" list of cities to serve. PHL-NRT was one. For obvious reasons, it never materialized. Also, KE was in discussions with the city as recently as 3 years ago for PHL-SEL. That also never materialized. Statistically, the Korean Metro population areas (EXCLUDING the West Coast) rank PHL as 4th.


User currently offlineBOSPMV From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6638 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 16):
i'm not going to doubt your numbers, but philadelphia as a city has 1.45 million people. boston has about 500,000. sometimes, those measures of metro regions are deceiving. it's quite possible that manchester, NH is included in the boston figures, and they have their own airport.

His numbers are 100% accurate and Manchester definitley is not in the Boston MSA. There is a consolidated Boston-Manchester metro region that includes Manchester, but it is not the one he was quoting and is rarely used, as the US census no longer offically recognizes CMSAs.

Metro regions are definitley not decieving. Especially when you have a city like Boston, which is 48 square miles of land, and a city like Philadelphia, which is a more sprawling 135 square miles.

The actually city of Boston has more the 550,00 people.

Also consider, Philadelphia's metro area size wise is almost 3 times the size of Boston's.


Perhaps Boston and other major cities such as Philadelphia and Miami and Denver who don't already have Asia service will see some once the 787 is introduced?


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6624 times:

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 7):
you need to stretch your legs after BOS - DTW? what is that, a 90 minute flight?

Uhhhh...coming from NRT-DTW, one could be excused for wanting to do just that. BOS-SEA-NRT; BOS-SFO-NRT; BOS-LAX-NRT...those are the kind of intermediate stops I had in mind.


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6129 times:

I've done BOS-JFK-NRT and back on AA twice. What I found interesting was that the ERJ140 from BOS to JFK was full of people who were connecting for the NRT flight, as I saw most of them at the gate for NRT!

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6010 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
Quoting .....Tockeyhockey (Reply 7):
furthermore, there are no airlines currently at PHL that would initiate such a flight. this certainly is not in US's plans...,

Actually it was. A few years ago, US had a "wish" list of cities to serve. PHL-NRT was one. For obvious reasons, it never materialized. Also, KE was in discussions with the city as recently as 3 years ago for PHL-SEL. That also never materialized. Statistically, the Korean Metro population areas (EXCLUDING the West Coast) rank PHL as 4th.

this is really interesting to me. i never heard that US had even a "wish" to move into asian markets. where did you get this information? how serious was this wish? had they done some planning work on how to make it happen? can the a330s that US owns do that flight profitably -- or at all?

although i guess this wish list shouldn't be taken too seriously. if i were an airline CEO, i could wish for just about anything, right? i want a super-sonic jet with no sonic boom that runs on solar power and i want to be able to service ever single airport in the world.


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5703 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 14):
A handful of S. American routes come to mind but even there the closest we come is AA with their ad hoc service (Saturday 777s to Santo Domingo, to name one).

Ahhh, the Saturday SDQ flight. Good to see that'll be back this winter with the AA156 (morning LHR flight) going down to six-times weekly. Anyone know how the flight does as a 777? Obviously the main reason it's there is aircraft utilization, but I'd imagine it still makes money on the route carrying cargo.

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 20):
Perhaps Boston and other major cities such as Philadelphia and Miami and Denver who don't already have Asia service will see some once the 787 is introduced?

That's what I'm thinking. With JAL and ANA having ordered, between the two of them, 80 787s they've got to fly them somewhere! I would look out for second-tier markets (places, that due to the restrictions at NRT, haven't been able to be served in the pas) like BOS, DEN, MIA, PHL, et al will be able to get service. Of course, this does remain to be seen.

While the technology bubble we saw in the late-90s has burst, technology is still a strong industry in New England (take a drive along I-95 through Waltham, Bedford, and Burlington) and add to that the large Asian population, I think a 787 would be a perfect option for business and leisure travellers alike. It's not too big, like the 777 or 747, to have too many seats for a 5x-daily flight. I think it's routes like BOS-NRT that will prove to be the 787s success. Afterall, that's what Boeing's marketing it as with all that p2p advertising.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
25 Airbazar : In this case size doesn't matter. Look at Atlanta for example, way bigger than Boston and yet, they're way bellow BOS in terms of international airlin
26 MAH4546 : Yeah, so much bigger: Atlanta MSA, 2003 census - 4,529,256 Boston MSA, 2003 census - 4,445,889 The difference isn't even 100,000.
27 MAH4546 : Yeah, so much bigger: Atlanta MSA, 2003 census - 4,529,256 Boston MSA, 2003 census - 4,445,889 The difference isn't even 100,000.
28 Tockeyhockey : i would agree with you that size of the city or urban area doesn't matter as much as you might think, but i think the issue is when you compare ATL a
29 MAH4546 : [Edited 2005-09-30 19:40:25]
30 Gigneil : BOS-NRT is a relatively short flight. The M11 could fly it. An A330-200 could, but not profitably. The merged United/US Airways intended to operate B
31 Post contains images LH423 : That's true. I'd like to know where they planned on getting the NRT slot from, but they did even make one of their gates able to accept the 777. Sinc
32 BOSPMV : The difference in population between Atlanta and Boston may be small. Keep in mind, as a major city, I am willing to bet Boston size wise is the smal
33 MAH4546 : It is. Boston, Miami, New York City, DC, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Philadelphia are the only major US metros that are also incredibly
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