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'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest  
User currently offlineCjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1251 posts, RR: 6
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12148 times:

'We've been stiff-armed' by Southwest
D/FW Airport exec argues for status quo in Wright Amendment controversy

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2005/09/26/story1.html

Interesting interview with Kevin Cox of DFW from the Dallas Business Journal. Excerpts below:


DBJ: You've offered financial incentives to various airlines to fill Delta's empty gates. Did you think you'd have a taker by now?
KEVIN COX: Yes, we did. We have been meeting with every airline, or airlines-in-the-making that don't even have aircraft yet. We actually had three carriers that had expressed an interest in the gates. But since then fuel prices have escalated, and Southwest announced its intention to seek repeal of the Wright Amendment. Those two things -- and the industry's uncertainty -- have significantly dampened our ability to fill those gates.

DBJ: So those three carriers are out of the picture now?
COX: Southwest, which was one of the three, looked us in the face and said they were interested, could make money at D/FW and could operate there efficiently. A week later they announced their desire to repeal the Wright Amendment. That same day a second carrier called me at three in the afternoon and indicated that as long as this cloud of uncertainty of the Wright Amendment exists, they're not going to bet their company on coming to D/FW Airport. The third carrier is at D/FW and was going to announce a major expansion, which they have chosen not to do.


DBJ: What about the argument that Wright's repeal would lead to the "Southwest effect," where fares drop, boosting traffic at both airports?
COX: What Southwest doesn't tell you is that D/FW already has low-cost service to six of the 15 cities that Southwest will potentially fly to. And before the end of the year, we'll add three more, giving us nine of the 15. Any stimulation -- the "Southwest effect" -- has already been experienced in six of those 15 cities; and within the next six months, it will be experienced in nine of the 15. So any great increase in traffic stimulation has probably already occurred, or will be occurring, and it has nothing to do with Southwest Airlines.

DBJ: Southwest also argues that it would incur "double costs" operating from both airports.
COX: They do that now in Los Angeles and in southern Florida. Plus, we have offered Southwest free rent, and we'll buy their equipment and pay their electricity. Their start-up costs the first year are basically zero at D/FW. I personally had a conversation with (CEO Gary) Kelly and said, "Come on out; we will make you a deal." We are open to negotiation. But we've been stiff-armed since the day they announced they want repeal.

DBJ: Southwest also contends that D/FW is too costly and too congested.
COX: We put together a presentation to combat that. We got about 10 minutes into our presentation to Gary Kelly and he stopped us and said, "Let's be honest; we can operate out of D/FW Airport. We operate out of more congested airports like Los Angeles. We operate out of more expensive airports, and we aren't scared of American Airlines." Southwest takes on every carrier in every market and does so effectively. To pretend that they can't do it at D/FW is just disingenuous. We have one of the lowest net costs per enplaned passenger of any major airport in the country.

DBJ: In terms of filling Delta's gates at D/FW, aren't prospective carriers fearful of American Airline's dominance there?
COX: Three factors keep carriers from coming. Any one is significant, but together they are virtually insurmountable. That doesn't mean that every day we aren't out there pushing it. Flying into a big American hub is a very difficult task. However, AirTran has shown it can be done. They flew right into Delta's hub and have now gained a significant market share because of their low-cost structure. Also there are the fuel prices and the Wright Amendment cloud of uncertainty. All three have chilled our ability to bring in a carrier.

DBJ: Critics say D/FW's "high fares" are essentially an invisible tax on North Texans. Will that ever change?
COX: I think it's going to happen regardless of what happens with the Wright Amendment. As I mentioned before, it's already happened. The airline industry is having to reinvent itself. No longer can a carrier, even with great dominance, demand high fares simply because it's dominant. American has made great strides at reducing its expenses to have more competitive fares. I respectfully disagree that adjusting the fares is anything we are going to be able to do, or (that the subject) has anything to do with the Wright Amendment. The market is going to adjust the fares. And fares are coming down. Our average, one-way domestic fare in fourth-quarter 2004/first-quarter 2005 was around $153. More than 25% of our passengers today pay less than $100 on a one-way fare.


"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
196 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 12047 times:

What's he going to do next week, pull out the world's smallest violin and play the world's sadest song?

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11937 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
What's he going to do next week, pull out the world's smallest violin and play the world's sadest song?

No, next week there will be another press conference at DFW, this one on behalf of the Girl Scouts, with new claims that Love Field airplane noise adversely impacts cookie sales near the airport.....  Yeah sure

Nothing new from Mr. Cox, SOSDD...


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11837 times:

This does show one thing. While many people have accused AA of playing a very rough game of hardball, WN has grown sufficiently powerful, so that it, too, can play just as rough, if not rougher.

I'm not saying that the WA should or shouldn't be repealed. But WN is now capable of being as threatening of a competitor as AA.

If I'm the CEO of an LCC, whether currently flying or in the process of starting operations, this article shows that WN will more that just fire a warning shot across the bow. AirTran learned that, when WN got into the bidding for TZ gates at MDW.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11795 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Hey OPNL...you're a dispatcher, maybe you know this:

When the crack in the Earth opens up and swallows DFW whole, will the FAA be warning us ahead of time?

I plan to do some flying in the Dallas area pretty soon, and want to be prepared for any NOTAMs or TFRs that may pop up.




2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11786 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
When the crack in the Earth opens up and swallows DFW whole, will the FAA be warning us ahead of time?

Nah, about 30 minutes after it happens, there'll be a groundstop out...  Wink


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11773 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Ok, I'll plan around that, then. Thanks for the heads-up.


 smile 




2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11750 times:

Yea, the attitude of the DFW people is pretty sad.

Southwest is going to do what they have to do to make more money. If they can't get Wright repealed, they'll go to DFW and hammer Ameican into the dirt.

This is an interesting saga playing out. Will Wright be repealed? I think so.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11680 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
Nah, about 30 minutes after it happens, there'll be a groundstop out...

Yeah...haha...they'll issue a groundstop but it will only affect ZNY, ZDC!  Smile


User currently offlineLongbowPilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 577 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11629 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Remember, there is a 3.00 port fee for transitting DFW.

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12146 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11545 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 8):
Yea, the attitude of the DFW people is pretty sad.

Southwest is going to do what they have to do to make more money. If they can't get Wright repealed, they'll go to DFW and hammer Ameican into the dirt.

This is an interesting saga playing out. Will Wright be repealed? I think so.

You are correct, the WA will be repealed, if not this year, it will be next year, which is a Congressional election year.

BTW, Kevin Cox is the DFW tAAlking mouth peice AAgAAinst the repeAAl of the Wright AAmendment.

Has everyone scene those corny TV ads, or heard the radio ads, DFW is putting out?


User currently offlineCjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1251 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11421 times:

This is typical, there has not been one response to the topic to counter what Kevin Cox is saying. I wonder why?


"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11383 times:

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 12):
This is typical, there has not been one response to the topic to counter what Kevin Cox is saying. I wonder why?

Because he didn't say anything. He read the company line. Again.

I flew through DFW last week. 3rd time this year. Time from touchdown to gate last week, 32 minutes. Gate to next takeoff 21 minutes.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineAdh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11348 times:

Frankly, I am getting little bit tired of Southwest's line "We can't move to DFW because of X, Y, or Z." This article shows that clearly they can compete with American and operate in more congested airports than DFW. Southwest has even acknowledged this fact.

The noise around Love field is annoying and only going to get worse. DFW has plenty of space for Southwest and they should just move all of their opperations to DFW. Love Field could be closed (or shrunk) and redeveloped into taxable property for the city and schools in Dallas.

Andrew


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11252 times:

Yes, I registered just to respond to this thread (someone is laughing I gaurantee), but I felt that I could not let the rampant intellectual dishonesty repeatedly displayed in WA threads by fellow Texans go unanswered.

No, you can't just close or shrink DAL and expect it to become viable tax base property. How long has the old Naval Air Station been closed? Is it tax base active now? No, it's not. In fact, I believe it needs several million in haz-mat clean up before anyone will touch it. Why then do people seem to suggest that closeing DAL would transform it into a magic fairy land of economic muscle? And everyone living in the metroplex knows the DISD would just steal the money anyways  Smile

..."The noise".. oh yes, the noise. I spent a lot of time working at a certain (not to be named for legal reasons) pricey auto dealership complex that engulfs most of the north eastern side of DAL. I would always try to arrive before dawn so I could catch the old (yellow just doesn't work for me) Airborn Express 762 coming in. Wait... a 762 at love? Already? Isn't that more noisy then anything Southwest has in their fleet now that the 732's are gone? What pray tell is going to be generateing all the new noise? Don't try feeding us higher gross. Lower gross means, high climb rate at higher power = lower noise footprint. Higher gross means, lower climb rate at de-rated power after takeoff = also low noise footprint. *gasp* It's called noise abatement procedures. They are already in effect at DAL. It's not like higher weight aircraft are going to start busting the rules left and right and drag raceing out of DAL. The noisiest things at DAL are the gaggles of old corporate jets, Tom Hicks' 722, and the occasional 18 visiting from NFW. They aren't noisy because of weight. They are noisy because the type of engines they have. Southwest's planes are actually some of the quieter aircraft on the field.

..."It's going to hurt DFW". No it's not. Unless DAL finds a place to plow out another good 3500ft of runway, and cram another terminal on mockingbird.. DFW is going to be just fine. It's not like FDX, UPS, BA, LH....etc are just going to up and crunch into DAL... hopeing to avoid a swim in bachman lake. How many airports are around LAX? Is LAX in danger? JFK? ORD? MIA? SFO? IAD? There are plenty of large airports operating with smaller airports only a short distance away. DFW will be just fine with DAL operating without restrictions... that is if DFW's management can unstick their necks from their posteriors and operate like a real buisness.

... a high speed train connecting the two airports would be dandy though...

So please, stop telling half lies about the WA, DAL, and DFW. Let Southwest open up DAL into a real airport. AA, stop being brats. DFW, realize that fuel costs aren't the reason your airport stinks. I only have one thing that I would like Southwest to ammend in their ops. Stop trying to kill us at TSA!!!!

Get over it guys. WA needs to be banished. WA will be banished. Banishing WA will be better for the community then stragleing a successful airport and airline.


User currently offlinePlanefreakaa From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11198 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):
What pray tell is going to be generateing all the new noise?

here's one, AA super 80. ever hear one of those on take off, kind of reminds me of a 727. very loud. definatly wake up the neighbors.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):
It's going to hurt DFW". No it's not.

yes it is, when AA pulls 50 or so flights out of DFW and moves them to DAL. you can bet your little garland farm on that one.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11064 times:

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 12):
This is typical, there has not been one response to the topic to counter what Kevin Cox is saying. I wonder why?

Because they can't.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
When the crack in the Earth opens up and swallows DFW whole, will the FAA be warning us ahead of time?

I'd be more concerned about this is LA.


User currently offlineDagolden1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11016 times:

Good post MDorBust  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Planefreakaa (Reply 16):
yes it is, when AA pulls 50 or so flights out of DFW and moves them to DAL. you can bet your little garland farm on that one.

And they just HAVE to do this why????


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10964 times:

Repeal of the WA is dead for this year. Congress is too busy with hurricane relief, and the nomination of Justice O'Conner's successor.

On the other hand, it will be interesting to see what happens in the House now the Rep. DeLay has stepped down as Majority Leader. Repeal depended, in part, on whether Rep. DeLay would support it.


User currently offlineTyphaerion From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 619 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10947 times:
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Quoting Planefreakaa (Reply 16):
here's one, AA super 80

So you are saying that it isnt the increase of Southwest traffic, but AA who will purposefully tank DAL noise wise so that people complain. And we wonder (not really) what depths that AA will stoop to to win the day anyway.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 12):
I wonder why?

Beacause we can read, unlike you, and feel no need to re-post all fo our old arguments. If you feel the need to hear them again, you can go back and read threads 'WN at DAL vs WA' et. all.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 4):
But WN is now capable of being as threatening of a competitor as AA.

I picked this idea up from that article too. Very, very interesting. Not totally a suprise, but to see blatent proof in a respected newssource that WN now holds a very big stick is refreshing. At least everyone knows it now.



For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
User currently offlineKellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 693 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10929 times:

Andrew, I find it amazing that you would want to restrict choices and have higher fares to protect AA and DFW.

Do you work for one of them?

SW should be able to make any business decision they feel is in their best interest. In this case it also happen's to be in the public's interest as repealing the Wright Amendment would allow open and free competition as it should be in all airline markets. I say this having no interest in them and never even having flown them, bu I do not like it when people are forced to pay higher prices and be inconvienced just to benefit certain entities.

It is simple. Compete. DFW should compete like any other airport should compete. MIA competes against FLL. ORD competes against MDW. SFO competes against OAK.


User currently offlineTyphaerion From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 619 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10925 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
Because they can't.

Welcome back Boeing7E7. I suggest you do some reading too, sir.



For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10870 times:

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 22):
Welcome back Boeing7E7. I suggest you do some reading too, sir.

I did. I suggest you actually have a valid response to the issue. I've more than made my point about 100 times. I'm spent.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10828 times:

Quoting Planefreakaa (Reply 16):
yes it is, when AA pulls 50 or so flights out of DFW and moves them to DAL. you can bet your little garland farm on that one.

Please don't tell me AA is going to drop all the way down to 950 daily departures from DFW!!! How will the Metroplex survive?!?

And it really sounded that all Cox was saying was that WN doesn't want to help him out and that if they don't wanna come voluntarily they should be forced to come because if they don't I'm gonna throw a temper tantrum and writhe on the ground and cause a big fit because they are being mean. What Cox fails to mention is that there was no deal in place. DFW wanted WN to take over 23 gates within 2 years and operate to markets that already have a glut of capacity for half their flights, with another 10% going to markets that currently do not have nonstop service from DFW (which, in WN's system, would include BOI, which AA tried but could not make work, and MHT). Yes, DFW offered a deal. They offered a deal where, while WN would not have to spend a whole lot in rent, they would have to fly unprofitable routes and open up brand spankin' new cities that not even AA serves from DFW. The cost was too high for WN with not nearly enough benefit. Simple as that.


And as for the noise, the DHL 727s, the private G-Is, G-IIs, G-IIIs, AC-90s, AC-95s, and a plethora of other aircraft, not the least of which being the 2200 ABX 762 departure, make a whole lot more noise and cause more noise pollution than WN's flights. In fact, WN accounts for only about 30% of traffic out of DAL; the rest of the noise is GA.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10761 times:

There's the old saying, becareful what you wish for, because you might get it. If WN gets the WA repealed, B6 could very well decide to move into DAL, even with only a few gates.

After all, would you rather fly to the New York or L.A. areas with a singing F/A after boarding cattle-car style, or would you like satallite TV with a reserved seat?


25 Legion242 : The old Naval Air Station doesn't have the best of locations though. Comparing them is not possible. DAL real estate is prime, not Grand Prarie. New
26 Post contains images Qxq400 : Free rent,buy there new equipment, pay there bills, sounds pretty good to me. WN is just staying at DAL on principle,kinda like a kid throwing a temp
27 Texan : However, the environmental contamination is worse at DAL. The land cannot be used for housing, schools, etc. Especially on the east side of the field
28 Texan : It does sound good. Everything DFW says sounds good. However, Not quite a good deal anymore. Texan
29 Cjpark : Can you at least post a link to an EPA or State Commision study on pollution at DAL to back up your claim that the land is not suited for anything el
30 Texan : It was a report by a local law firm, Haynes & Boone. The land was examined in the early 1990s for a possible sale. Unfortunately that report is not av
31 MDorBust : Yes, AA's super 80's are pretty loud beasts. Are you suggesting though that AA is going to transfer flights to DAL, destroying any ability of passeng
32 Adh214 : No I don't work in the industry. However, I do live in the Metroplex and see no point in cramming extra capacity into Love field when there is PLENTY
33 Post contains images OPNLguy : What a concept--SWA running its own business, and not DFW, AA, the cities of Dallas and Ft. Worth, nor any of the pro-Wright folks. You'd think that
34 Post contains links Texan : Link to court case summary Aviall has also had to pay for cleanup for streets around DAL, including Shorecrest, Reeves, Wylie, Putnam, Weiss, and Lov
35 Legion242 : My bad, I thought that the Base was in Grand Prarie, not Dallas.
36 Legion242 : My bad, I thought that the Base was in Grand Prarie, not Dallas.
37 FCYTravis : If there's plenty of capacity at DFW, why do I sit on the ground for 15 or 20 or 30 minutes every time I fly through there? I quit sending my busines
38 Post contains links Cjpark : http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...h&navby=case&no=0010197cv0&exact=1 Aviall Services, Inc. ("Aviall") appeals the summary judgment dismissal of i
39 Texan : Cjpark, Conversly, has the EPA commisssioned a study of all harmful sites around the US? There is literally a lake of jet fuel underneath DAL. The amo
40 L-188 : Actually that is a legitimate concern at DFW, they are talking about drilling for Natural Gas under the airport.
41 Post contains links Cjpark : Texan to answer your question Yes please see the link below. http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/npl/npl.htm
42 Post contains images OPNLguy : Anyone notice the eventual resemblence of these Wright threads to the infamous Monty Python sketch? M: (Knock) A: Come in. M: Ah, Is this the right ro
43 MDorBust : Now see, this is exactly the type of intellectual dishonesty that I was previously referrring to. You have presented a statement based on a civil cas
44 OPNLguy : "Ding!"
45 Post contains images MrMcCoy : OPNLguy had it right.. Life is definately beginning to imitate art.
46 Legion242 : What about the old airport at Austin? I travel through there by road quite often, and as far as I can tell, and I may be wrong, there was no environme
47 Apodino : Don't forget Stapleton Airport as well in DEN.
48 Cjpark : That is exactly the point! The government has not stepped in as said that the site is too polluted to be used for anything else. The NAS has an EPA r
49 Post contains links and images MDorBust : You mean the airport reclimation that had been on-going for around six years now? Don't worry, they'll finish someday. Any who. $55mil was spent clean
50 MDorBust : Would that be because no one has ever tried to use it for anything else... maybe... .... Yeah.... sure... just like your average freeway.... Tell me,
51 Electech6299 : When was the last time you cleaned out your car with TCE? Please, be serious. Those of us in the industry know what we're talking about. The EPA does
52 Legion242 : Just trying to play devil's advocate, but two things come to mind: 1) The city site gives no indication of cleaning up any waste- not that the site w
53 Cjpark : I thought Trichlorethene and Trichlorethylene had been banned? Besides TCE released into the soil will either evaporate or leach into the ground wate
54 AirTranTUS : WN said they could handle the competition. And a monopoly isn't good AAnyway. Who's running the operation here? Do they operate 50 Flights out of and
55 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Because the perimeter taxiways haven't been built and your waiting at a peak bank. Most Southwest Flights would be off peak. Thta's called a PFC for
56 Apodino : Which I might add will do ZERO, NOTHING, ZILCH to alleviate the problem. Those taxiways require the planes to taxi all the way past the end of the ru
57 Post contains images Thecamel67 : MDorBust. Thanks for joining the conversation with some intelligent discussion instead of the same old arguments over and over. I too joined when I co
58 Boeing7E7 : 1. The taxi around elimites runway crossing holds, internal taxiway congestion and runway holds for crossing aircraft. 3. Their primary use will be o
59 Apodino : I don't buy that arguement either. The fact that they would be used for outbounds doesn't make sense, since you are still dealing with issues such as
60 MDorBust : No body is saying that airport land can't be re-used. We are saying that airport land can not be re-used cheaply. Mueller has already cost more than
61 Thecamel67 : That is exactly my point. DFW has inferred that they would be able to reduce delay problems for WN (ie: building a new terminal close to the end of a
62 IRelayer : I will admit I am unfamiliar with this topic. It seems to me however that any airport that hosts a superhub as large as AA's at DFW cannot justify to
63 Cjpark : How about that it is in the Regions best interest to have WN operate at DFW instead of DAL? I guess you could argue that WN should care less about wh
64 Post contains images N1120A : The only point you ever make in these threads is the one everyone already knows. You hate Southwest Airlines. Nevermind the fact that they treat thei
65 Aaway : Sounds to me you're suggesting that a dislike of WN, or being pro-Wright is somehow irrational. Some anti-Wright'ers have shown some "exuberance" as
66 Legion242 : Maybe no income yet, but building of studios has begun and is well under way. You can see the massive structures from I-35. At the very least, progre
67 Apodino : My point exactly. He didn't say that. The point he made was that DFW tried to convince Southwest that it was in SOUTHWEST's best interest to operate
68 CO757bos2iah : I don't know about airport planning,but this seems to be the case at IAH. I've noticed over the last two weeks or so, aircraft taxiing around to the
69 Post contains links Aaway : This link details a 2003 study on the potential of perimeter taxiways at DFW: http://www.simlabs.arc.nasa.gov/ffc/dapt.html
70 Kanebear : No, it's in DFW's best interest that WN operate there, NOT the region as has been proven repeatedly on these incessant threads.
71 7seas : Kellmark, Just a minor correction to your post. ORD and MDW don't compete against each other. They compliment one another as they are both run by the
72 Cjpark : Kanebear, This is a forum not a place where public policy is decided so what ever opinions agreed upon by the WN crowd here really do not carry water
73 OPNLguy : Likewise for the Pro-Wright crowd....
74 Cjpark : Unfortunately for you the Pro-Wright position is currently the law of the land.
75 Jjbiv : Why are so many people afraid of WN's success? I can understand DFW and AA being opposed to expanding the role of DAL in the Metroplex's aviation syst
76 Ikramerica : this is very true. what IAH did was to make, for most wind conditions, a pair of departure runways that are interchangeable, and you can be routed to
77 MDorBust : Yes, exactly. What was decided on 30 YEARS AGO I hate to tell you, but the DFW metroplex is not what it was 30 years ago. 30 years ago, haveing one c
78 Post contains images Legion242 : Yeah, Terminal E is real congested at the moment.
79 MDorBust : If only haveing available terminal space could cure DFW's congestion. No, the problem is currently in taxi times and departure stacking. Plopping mor
80 LY4XELD : To compete. But they're not 12 miles apart. And why are so many hell bent on AA's failure? To protect an investment of two major North Texas cities.
81 Post contains images MDorBust : I don't think anyone who wants the WA repealled wants AA or DFW to fail. Wouldn't the transfer of AA flights to DAL be the fault of AA and not WN or
82 Jjbiv : In a free-market economy, AA deserves to fail if they can't meet the needs of their customers better than the competition can. AA is confusing this w
83 Cjpark : >>>>That is the first time anyone has suggested that the commercial airline aviation business in this region needs more airfield capacity. Concering
84 Jjbiv : That's a disingenuous comment if ever I've read one. A level playing field is one in which each competitor is free to independently make decisions af
85 FCYTravis : It's not a level playing field when the airport is already completely and utterly dominated by one airline which has built its position protected by a
86 MDorBust : And east and south too Now that we know our compass points, and the fact the metroplex is booming... what is your point? I dare say, I can't imagine
87 Post contains images OPNLguy : His supply is endless. It's too bad his arguments are not oil--if they were, we'd be down to $1.29 gallon for regular unleaded....
88 ExFATboy : And so was Prohibition, and airline regulation, and a lot of other bad ideas. Then why wasn't it written that way? Oh, wait, I know...because somethi
89 Cjpark : The net effect of money coming into the city whether through DFW or split between DAL and DFW is the same. I guess all that money funneling into the
90 MDorBust : No, it is not. And until you admit that you are being delusional. The problem is that they are already over prospering. There aren't enough slots as
91 Cjpark : Gee OP, I thought at least you would try to counter what was discussed in the article. What is the matter isn't there something in the statements mad
92 Post contains images 2H4 : Yeah, MD, only Dallas residents have a say in this federal issue. Didn't you know that? 2H4
93 OPNLguy : Reply #2
94 DALNeighbor : Cjpark finally spewed enough lunacy to get me to pay the $25 and register. I am a Dallas resident, I live on the north side of Love Field directly und
95 Post contains images DfwRevolution : >> Cjpark finally spewed enough lunacy to get me to pay the $25 and register Haha... that's the story of half of us brother >> We need a law to repla
96 Post contains images OPNLguy : Nicely, and concisely stated! Welcome to A.net....
97 Aaway : I tend to chuckle somewhat whenever the phrase free market is introduced into this discussion. Isn't it somewhat paradoxical that a business is seekin
98 Post contains images 2H4 : Thanks for registering, DAL...it's nice to have some more anti-lunacy (ie: common sense) aboard. 2H4
99 Post contains images DfwRevolution : >> Isn't it somewhat paradoxical that a business is seeking access to a market via conveyance through the legislative branch of government? A true fr
100 MDorBust : Love's location and surroundings make it impossible to be expanded up and it is completely locked in by the city... which is why some of us find it r
101 Post contains images Aaway : Nah...I'd question the up-and-comers on the Texas State Judiciary of 1973. Said strictly in jest, though it would tidy up the level playing field iss
102 Post contains images Aaway : See my reply in post #101. However I will add - have ya' checked out those new imminent domain guidelines
103 MDorBust : The ones where we can seize a supreme court justices house to make a strip mall?... Anywho, if we can get a high speed taxi off of an extended 13R/31
104 Boeing7E7 : On a departure, the localizer critical area is at the other end of the runway, the but the perimter taxiways are outside the critical area anyway sho
105 Boeing7E7 : Actually, the ideal location for SWA would be a new East/West running linear terminal on the south side of the airport. As far as flow procedures, cl
106 Cjpark : Why don't you list for us the money coming into the cities coffers from having DAL open to commercial airline service? No we need a federal law that
107 Boeing7E7 : My point has always been airport and airspace efficiency and nothing else. Furthermore, SWA doesn't serve Madison, and their entrance would only dama
108 Post contains images 2H4 : Hell, why stop there? Let's re-regulate the entire US airline industry! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! 2H4
109 Cjpark : You realize that is the first intelligent statement you have made on this forum?
110 Post contains images 2H4 : Thanks, Cj. Coming from the undisputed master of intelligent statements, that truly means a lot to me. 2H4
111 DALNeighbor : I think the Pro-Wright crowd has successfully devolved the debate into such mind numbing minutiae, at least in this forum, as to cloud the real issue
112 Boeing7E7 : The problem there is that Dallas isn't Chicago, and the DFW Region doesn't have enough traffic demand for two airports. It's an issue of system effic
113 Typhaerion : And DAL is no where near the capacity of MDW. I would say that the porportion between DAL and MDW is about the same as the ratio of travellers into D
114 DALNeighbor : The problem in Dallas is that traffic has been suppressed by high airfares. There will be plenty of traffic for a Chicago style solution once fares a
115 Boeing7E7 : No, the problem is that the Region doesn't have enough of a population or O&D base to support two airports. This was projected when DFW was built and
116 Apodino : Why the hell are you only looking at Southwest? As I have stated before, and will continue to state until it gets through your thick skull, its not t
117 Stirling : I wouldn't compare AUS with DAL. One was a major hub for several national carriers for many decades, one was a feeder to larger airports such as DAL.
118 MDorBust : HAHAHAHAHA No. Tell me, if DFW and DAL are too much for current traffic... why do I get wake turbulence warnings landing at Addison because some twit
119 FCYTravis : Yes, sir, because what America needs is fewer flights, half-empty airports, dramatically higher airfares, 777s at Mojave, multiple interline carrier
120 Stirling : At 5.2 million residents, DFW can't support 2 airports while Houston with a metro of 4.7 million can? DFW also covers a far greater area than does Ho
121 DALNeighbor : I believe there is enough traffic and you believe there is not enough traffic. This is a question that the market should decide and it should be allo
122 Cjpark : Yes it is worth something but honestly those jobs will transfer to DFW or what ever airport they move to. The argument you are making concerning GA a
123 FCYTravis : Cjpark, so if the residents who live around DFW decide that the planes make too much noise, they could force DFW to close four terminals and restrict
124 Boeing7E7 : Because the airline issues are not what is relivant here. When will you get it through your thick head this is a public investment issue not an airli
125 FCYTravis : DFW efficient? Man, obviously you've never had to connect through that airport. It's horrendous. Might be a great O&D spot but the design and executio
126 Incitatus : That's a good idea but why a 250-flight limit? That would be enough flights to serve all local domestic traffic originating east of DFW. There would
127 FCYTravis : Insufficient traffic to support DFW? WTF? DFW is the major hub for American Airlines and that's not going to change if DAL kills the Wright Amendment.
128 Incitatus : The majority of DFW's traffic is connecting. If DAL get 250 daily domestic flights, it will have a greater share of domestic local traffic than DFW.
129 FCYTravis : There won't be *room* for anyone else to expand at DAL. The master plan (which Southwest has agreed to follow) has a 36 gate limit, 24 of which are al
130 DALNeighbor : How can you possibly know for a fact what traffic would be without Wright Amendment suppression of traffic? You couldn't, so stop pretending as thoug
131 Incitatus : Notice that: 1. The master plan has no force of law. 2. Southwest agreed to follow the master plan...? Really? What prevents them from changing their
132 FCYTravis : As I said, Southwest has 24 of those gates already. They aren't going to run 240 flights a day from DAL. WN has 25 gates at Midway but only 170 daily
133 Boeing7E7 : By closing DAL to commercial traffic only, not GA, DFW's airfield and airspace effciency would increase by 10-15%, by changing the airspace from shar
134 FCYTravis : I'm sure that if one was to bulldoze OAKland International Airport, the traffic pattern at SFO would improve as well.
135 FCYTravis : Right, and because DAL is more efficient for WN-style ops, it's cheaper for them there. Thanks for admitting that. Gee, I guess the fact that airport
136 Boeing7E7 : It would, however SFO's layout is poor making it incapable of supporting the region independent of other airports. This is true for airports in all d
137 Cjpark : Thank you for acknowledging the obvious! DFW is a regionally and nationally planned airport that was built to handle all Dallas, Ft Worth PAX service
138 Stirling : What does a plan in the 1960's have to do with ACTUAL usage in 2005? Yes, IAH was PLANNED as an alternative to HOU. But. When IAH opened in 1969, ALL
139 Boeing7E7 : They chose the alternative. It offered better infrastructure and longer runways providing better market range. It is not large enough, nor does it's
140 Apodino : Hate to break it to you but that won't happen without bulldozing the entire terminal complex and replacing it with one similar to either ATL or DEN.
141 Stirling : This guy is: And so is this guy: (Arguing in favor of shutting the whole thing down so it can be turned into a toxic urban paradise.) And unfortunate
142 Boeing7E7 : It would only require a North set of concourses for AA and a South Concourse for WN. The rest of the terminals would remain. Physically connect termi
143 Stirling : YES THERE IS A PROBLEM! The law says if Dallas Love Field is open for one, it's open for ALL. Whether that be: GA Commercial Military Little Green Me
144 Boeing7E7 : A court ruling which can be reviewed and overturned says that (a ruling made in a pre-deregulation environment where airports were not considered to
145 Cjpark : Remember that the City of Dallas owns 60% of DFW and DFW contribute 14 Billion to the local economy and over 268K jobs in the area (dfwairport.com).
146 DALNeighbor : DFW is a wonderful master planned airport with billions of public money invested, massive terminal structures, miles and miles of runways and taxiways
147 MDorBust : When you're WA support involves closeing DAL, GA and corporate aviation sure as heck do figure into the debate. Or do those ops convienentally disapp
148 Cjpark : Does it hurt to not have a worthwhile argument? Is that why you try so hard to incite anger with your attempts to be insulting.[Edited 2005-10-04 05:
149 SPREE34 : Throwing a Bullshit flag here. I talked with a friend at DFW TRACON. The procedures they use keep DAL and DFW from interfering with one another now.
150 MDorBust : Yeah sure... I haven't posted anything of value at all... nope.. not one bit of basic common sense, insight into actual aviation operations, or the t
151 Cjpark : Those figures are published on the airport web sites. DAL supposedly generates 2 billion and creates 24K jobs. DFW generates 14 billion and creates 26
152 Apodino : That is not true at all. In a south configuration, the 13R approach path does not cross any other approaches into DFW. In a northern configuration, t
153 Post contains images Stirling : Now come on, you know it doesn't work that way. If DFW is the Shangri-La of all things aviation related, why does an airport like AFW even have a mar
154 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Competition is created when all things, rates charges and operational efficiency within a market are equal for all carriers within the market. DFW an
155 Post contains images MDorBust : As I said before, you either intend to decieve or are completely clueless. You can't take two seperate establishement, make them one, then expect to
156 Cjpark : One more time for you to let it sink in. Yes the airport is worth more to the city tax roles as private property that can be taxed.
157 Apodino : Here is one flaw I find with that arguement. DAL is presently Class C airspace, which is partly overlapped by the DFW Class B airspace. If I understa
158 Post contains links Apodino : To follow up my last post, I looked at an ILS plate for 13R in DFW. The plate says "Similtaneous converging approaches AUTHORIZED with Converging ILS
159 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : It woudl become calss D. And you're right. You dont' see much. You still have converging operations with radar controlled separation. It does nothing
160 Stirling : Claiming DAL would generate more tax revenue under private control; is a bold declaration of the obvious. Sure. I agree. But at what cost? And how lon
161 Boeing7E7 : To better explain this for you. You can land on all four intersecting runways at one time (240 arrivals per hour with no departures), however you can
162 Post contains images MDorBust : Excuse me? Are you now clairvoiant too? First off, is this based on DAL becomeing private and operating as an airport or on DAL closeing and being re
163 Apodino : And so is DFW in case you have forgotten. And Southwest is irrelevant to that, the problem is that the airport just can't attract new service because
164 Cjpark : Why would you want to close an airport and not shut it down completely? Of course I meant shutting it down and letting the city sell the land for eit
165 Post contains images OPNLguy : As I said before, the same is true for the pro-Wright side, yourself and Boeing7E7 included, yet we have another meaningless thread that's run 160+ m
166 Post contains links MDorBust : Good lord I hope you never operate a buisness if your best idea of buisness planning is to dive in without any planning or research. Dump out $2bil i
167 Boeing7E7 : In a pre-deregulation environment airports effectively competed and many gave back door deals to tenants which benefited some carriers over others as
168 Post contains images N1120A : You can dislike WN all you want. Most would consider not liking the airline that has done the most to stimulate commercial air traffic and make it ac
169 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : IAH has poor throughput. Just because it has five runways doesn't mean it can handle the flights. DFW's four parallels without the far East parallel
170 Post contains links Cjpark : You sure do know a lot about the strip clubs in Dallas don’t you. WN needs to leave DAL period. If closing DAL makes it happen I can agree to that.
171 Cjpark : I still find it humorous that you have not tried to counter any of the comments made by Mr. Cox. Concerning your comments about us being plants I hav
172 OPNLguy :
173 Cjpark : You really should learn the history of DFW and the WA before commenting. Once again you need to learn the history of DFW and the WA before commenting
174 MDorBust : I know a lot about most things in Dallas. Please, by all means, get enough guts to extend your insinuation. Last time I went some where just to go so
175 Goldenshield : As much as I wanted to stay out of this thread, I must object. While LAX is an old design, it is far from inefficient. Also, the airport operates at
176 Apodino : Just one thing. How come the document you have linked to says it can support 132 ops in marginal weather. The report says the 110 gates was before th
177 Cjpark : You have a short memory don't you? Just pointing out the obvious fact to you again that the city can make more money off of DAL from property taxes t
178 MDorBust : What, are you now trying to claim that the growth around DFW is because that's where the growth would have happened anyways and not because of the ca
179 Cjpark : Why don't you tell us all about the area around DAL and compare it the area around DFW and draw your own conclusion?
180 Ikramerica : Off topic, but maybe a little less vicious. What are your favorite places for tourism in Asia? Having recently visited Japan, I tend to agree as it w
181 Post contains links DfwRevolution : >> Just pointing out the obvious fact to you again that the city can make more money off of DAL from property taxes than as an airport. That assumes
182 MDorBust : Let's examine the area around DAL should we? If you go North West, you run into low income houseing and then a giant entertainment (adult entertainme
183 Stirling : Explain this Class system please. Is it time for the dead parrot yet? I've heard this joke before.
184 N1120A : No, the original 5 runway LAX master plan with the west gates is a major hope. Voluntary noise curfew Bollocks and you know it. People will drive muc
185 Aaway : I suggest you take time to review the other voluminous Wright threads I've participated in. Never have I expressed a dislike of WN. However, I do tak
186 Apodino : In a nutshell, the us has six different classes of airspace used in this country. Class A = Between FL180 and FL600, all ac must be on ifr flight pla
187 Boeing7E7 : That program is dead. The only hope for a minor increase in efficiency is the addition of taxiways between the dependent pairs. It's all about the ca
188 Cjpark : Exactly, there is no open land. While the land around DAL is ripe for redevelopment no one will risk investing in the area as long as the airport is
189 Goldenshield : Did you even see, let alone READ my reply at 175? LAX does NOT have daily ground stops. LAX does NOT have daily flow. LAX does NOT have efficiency pr
190 CXA330300 : WN needs to stop acting as the underdog, because they're not. They've outgrown that excuse.
191 Boeing7E7 : LAX DOES have daily ground stops, Flow control begins between 07:00 and 08:00 AM and ends between 20:00 and 22:00 Daily and when the weather goes to
192 DAYflyer : It's pretty clear that DFW did it's best to offer WN cheap gates, but WN passed as a business decision. Perhaps they ARE affraid of AA, as AA would no
193 Goldenshield : I work LAX every single friggin' day. There are no ground stops. There is no flow. So you, some airport cronie at SAN knows what is going on at LAX,
194 Apodino : Can you provide a source for your info? Because if this is true, then it would be mentioned in things like the Command Center conference call that th
195 Cjpark : Hong Kong is a blast if you have time to explore the city. Shanghai was an interesting place to visit as well. South Korea, Taiwan and the Phillipine
196 Post contains images Goldenshield : I Suggest this thread continue in another thread to save those with low bandwidth.
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